2015 Lawn thread
Discussion
I'll second that, that's a tremendous job to clear and prep that lot Day 10 on the 'Big Brother' lawn.
There are now widespread green bits, and some areas have thick grass that is over an inch tall already. Even the shady bits are germinating quite well and coming along.
There are some bare patches where very little has come up yet; I think I may have applied the top-dressing a bit too thickly in places. I'm sure there are seedlings sprouting under the surface, but it's now a race to see whether they can reach the light before the carbohydrate stored in their seeds runs out. I held back a couple of kilos of seed, so I think I'll put a bit more down on these areas and cover with a very thin layer of compost. There's probably still time for it to germinate, particularly if I cover with a piece of bubblewrap to keep the warmth in.
There are now widespread green bits, and some areas have thick grass that is over an inch tall already. Even the shady bits are germinating quite well and coming along.
There are some bare patches where very little has come up yet; I think I may have applied the top-dressing a bit too thickly in places. I'm sure there are seedlings sprouting under the surface, but it's now a race to see whether they can reach the light before the carbohydrate stored in their seeds runs out. I held back a couple of kilos of seed, so I think I'll put a bit more down on these areas and cover with a very thin layer of compost. There's probably still time for it to germinate, particularly if I cover with a piece of bubblewrap to keep the warmth in.
Now I have my cylinder mower working I've just ordered some ornamental grass seed to over seed my lawn with to add some finer varieties. I'm going to get some topsoil and try and remove the lumps and bumps too. I'm guessing having read previous post my process should be:
- Mow lawn
- Scarify
- Topdress/ level
- Feed
- Sow
- Water
- Wait
Edited by wseed on Thursday 10th September 12:33
I would recommend covering the seed after sowing, either with a layer of compost (but not too thick!) or others use hessian. It does seem to improve germination rate.
If spreading compost as a top-dressing, my recent experience is that it's best to scatter it by hand, and aim to *just* cover the seed so that you can only just not see it, IYSWIM. The places where I think I may have overdone it are where I was spreading a mixture of compost and topsoil by chucking a shovelful and then spreading it with the back of a rake. I think that technique has resulted in some over-thick patches. The places where I've scattered just a thin layer of compost by hand have shown excellent germination.
In fact, if you look in my picture above, you can actually see a line across the lawn where I changed technique. "Below" the line is where I was using a mixture of compost and topsoil, and scattering by shovel and rake (and this is where some of my bare patches are); "above" the line is where I switched to just compost and scattering by hand. I think the germination is slightly better above the line, although that is also the sunnier part of the garden.
Oh, and just to add a few more steps to your list:
8. Water
9. Wait
10. Water
11. Wait
12. Water
13. Wait
Edited to add: I find it much easier to spread seed by hand, and judge the amount of seed by eye. I did do a test patch where I measured a square metre and scattered 50 grammes of seed into it - this gave me a visual idea of what I was aiming for. The seed should be dense, but you should still be able to see plenty of soil.
If spreading compost as a top-dressing, my recent experience is that it's best to scatter it by hand, and aim to *just* cover the seed so that you can only just not see it, IYSWIM. The places where I think I may have overdone it are where I was spreading a mixture of compost and topsoil by chucking a shovelful and then spreading it with the back of a rake. I think that technique has resulted in some over-thick patches. The places where I've scattered just a thin layer of compost by hand have shown excellent germination.
In fact, if you look in my picture above, you can actually see a line across the lawn where I changed technique. "Below" the line is where I was using a mixture of compost and topsoil, and scattering by shovel and rake (and this is where some of my bare patches are); "above" the line is where I switched to just compost and scattering by hand. I think the germination is slightly better above the line, although that is also the sunnier part of the garden.
Oh, and just to add a few more steps to your list:
8. Water
9. Wait
10. Water
11. Wait
12. Water
13. Wait
Edited to add: I find it much easier to spread seed by hand, and judge the amount of seed by eye. I did do a test patch where I measured a square metre and scattered 50 grammes of seed into it - this gave me a visual idea of what I was aiming for. The seed should be dense, but you should still be able to see plenty of soil.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 10th September 12:43
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
Did you mix your compost with any sand? If not, then keep an eye on the deeper levels as they may need more regular aeration to avoid the compost capping the surface. Much depends on what the composition of the underlying soil is like and how quickly the compost gets integrated, so it may never become an issue.wseed said:
Now I have my cylinder mower working I've just ordered some ornamental grass seed to over seed my lawn with to add some finer varieties. I'm going to get some topsoil and try and remove the lumps and bumps too. I'm guessing having read previous post my process should be:
Like Dr Mike I tend to seed by hand. Calculate how much seed you need, weight it, then split the seed into 2 to 4 batches. Aim to evenly cover the lawn with each batch, then repeat but in a different direction. On a larger lawn it can help to mark out 1x1 metre squares with canes or twine to use as a guide.- Mow lawn
- Scarify
- Topdress/ level
- Feed
- Sow
- Water
- Wait
When top dressing, it can be a good idea sometimes to sow half of your seeds before top dressing, then half afterwards. If it's going to be quite a heavy layer of top dressing and the seeds are finer fescues and bents then I would just sow after top dressing. With larger ryegrass seeds it's particularly advantageous as they do like a good sowing depth. Rule of thumb is to sow the seeds as deep as the seeds are long - which isn't such a helpful rule when you have a mixture of seeds
Once the seed is down, work it into the soil with the back of a rake or a brush, then compact the soil with a light roller or even the mower (with blades disengaged) if it has a rear roller. Failing that, a length of wood tamped down with a sledgehammer works well. The important thing is to get good seed to soil contact.
When top dressing, aim to get the composition of the top dressing similar to that of the underlying soil to avoid creating soil horizons. Add sharp or horticultural sand to the topsoil as necessary. Mixing some compost in is also beneficial to the health of the lawn.
Will you be aerating the lawn during the renovation process?
wjwren said:
How does this look for Nitrogen content? 7.5%
In Poundland.
7.5-1.5-1.5 is an unusual NPK ratio for grass fertiliser. I'd expect to seek higher amounts of K to P than that for an off the shelf product. If I was going to use it, I'd be inclined to apply at around 2/3rds recommended rate as an N boost with added greening from the Fe in it as and when required on top of any existing slow release fertiliser. That should be plenty to green the lawn up without driving excess growth from too much N imho.In Poundland.
Having been inspired by the liberal amounts of grass killing going on I have attacked my lawn as well to get rid of the various clumps of Yorkshire Fog. However I only went around and killed off the various patches (including some very large ones) rather than the whole lawn, but I'm now thinking I may end up with a patchy lawn when the new seed goes down due to the various grasses?
I only treated with the glyphosate two days ago so would I be better off just doing the whole lawn or would a liberal overseeding be enough to help blend the different grasses?
It's not a large lawn and I would say around a third has already been treated.
I only treated with the glyphosate two days ago so would I be better off just doing the whole lawn or would a liberal overseeding be enough to help blend the different grasses?
It's not a large lawn and I would say around a third has already been treated.
Thanks for the reply's Lawn Experts, I'm saying "top dressing" but this will be mostly to try and level the dips in the lawn so will I guess be thicker in parts. The seed I've ordered is "SAMANTA certified Slender Fescue, CAPRICCIO certified Chewings Fescue, HIGHLAND certified Bentgrass" I'm guessing mostly finer stuff so wil take the tip of sowing and then raking /rolling in, you say light roller do you mean this literally as my roller is pretty heavy or do you mean just a single pass.
Regarding the dressing I was looking at just buying topsoil from Wicks as it looks to get good reviews unlike that from another DIY shed. when you say add sand and compost do you just mean multi purpose stuff and what ratio of soil sand compost? The turf was only laid last year on top of a loamy soil. I guess I've just found another use for the cement mixer I was going to put on gumtree. Regarding aeration I hadn't considered it but will look at borrowing the farther in laws aerator.
Regarding the dressing I was looking at just buying topsoil from Wicks as it looks to get good reviews unlike that from another DIY shed. when you say add sand and compost do you just mean multi purpose stuff and what ratio of soil sand compost? The turf was only laid last year on top of a loamy soil. I guess I've just found another use for the cement mixer I was going to put on gumtree. Regarding aeration I hadn't considered it but will look at borrowing the farther in laws aerator.
jagnet said:
Did you mix your compost with any sand?
Yes, and no. For the part of the lawn closer to the house (below the horizontal line you can see in the picture), I was using a mixture of compost and some fairly sandy top-dressing (I was using up the remainder from a couple of years ago). But I'm lazy and it was taking a long time to mix wheel-barrowfuls and then spread it out, so for the part 'above' the line, I used just a thin covering of compost. You can see the slight colour difference. Hopefully the amount of compost is thin enough not to cause a problem, but I take your point that if the compost dries out it could form a 'crust' that will repel water. Hopefully it'll remain moist enough over the winter so that won't happen, and I'll make sure to spike regularly in the spring to keep the surface porous.
Mr Bishi said:
I only treated with the glyphosate two days ago so would I be better off just doing the whole lawn or would a liberal overseeding be enough to help blend the different grasses?
It depends how happy you are with the rest of the grass you've got, and whether you can buy a reasonably well-matched seed mix. My lawn was an awful mix of rubbish, so I wanted rid! But a generous overseeding will probably blend it in.wseed said:
The seed I've ordered is "SAMANTA certified Slender Fescue, CAPRICCIO certified Chewings Fescue, HIGHLAND certified Bentgrass"
That's precisely the mix that I'm using, and it has germinated very quickly in the sunny areas. I've also been using the Wickes topsoil for filling dips, and it's nice stuff - quite fine. I added a bit of horticultural sand - not sure how much, just until it 'looked right'... I'd say maybe 5 parts soil to 1 part sand. Sharp sand would be fine as well. I also brushed this into the fracking holes I'd drilled with the auger bit as suggested by Mr JagnetJust found this article while looking on Google, thought it may be of interest considering all the talk of Glyphosate:
The IARC asked 17 experts to assess five organophosphate pesticides. Glyphosate, the most widely used of the five, was placed in category 2A, meaning “possibly carcinogenic to humans”, following evidence from studies carried out in America, Canada and Sweden.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-ne...
The IARC asked 17 experts to assess five organophosphate pesticides. Glyphosate, the most widely used of the five, was placed in category 2A, meaning “possibly carcinogenic to humans”, following evidence from studies carried out in America, Canada and Sweden.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-ne...
Mr Bishi said:
I only treated with the glyphosate two days ago so would I be better off just doing the whole lawn or would a liberal overseeding be enough to help blend the different grasses?
Unless you're substantially changing the grass types and nature of the lawn, eg ryegrass to bent grass then a heavier overseeding at new lawn rates, or even new lawn + 50% should blend it all in nicely. At least I'm hoping so or mine will be just as patchy A second scarification and ligher overseeding in the spring will help even more.
R8VXF said:
This is turning into the Great Lawn Glyphosating of 2015! 
I knew I should have bought shares in Monsanto sooner.wseed said:
Thanks for the reply's Lawn Experts, I'm saying "top dressing" but this will be mostly to try and level the dips in the lawn so will I guess be thicker in parts. The seed I've ordered is "SAMANTA certified Slender Fescue, CAPRICCIO certified Chewings Fescue, HIGHLAND certified Bentgrass" I'm guessing mostly finer stuff so wil take the tip of sowing and then raking /rolling in, you say light roller do you mean this literally as my roller is pretty heavy or do you mean just a single pass.
Regarding the dressing I was looking at just buying topsoil from Wicks as it looks to get good reviews unlike that from another DIY shed. when you say add sand and compost do you just mean multi purpose stuff and what ratio of soil sand compost? The turf was only laid last year on top of a loamy soil. I guess I've just found another use for the cement mixer I was going to put on gumtree. Regarding aeration I hadn't considered it but will look at borrowing the farther in laws aerator.
Yes, the fescues and bents are both smaller - bent seeds are absolutely tiny:Regarding the dressing I was looking at just buying topsoil from Wicks as it looks to get good reviews unlike that from another DIY shed. when you say add sand and compost do you just mean multi purpose stuff and what ratio of soil sand compost? The turf was only laid last year on top of a loamy soil. I guess I've just found another use for the cement mixer I was going to put on gumtree. Regarding aeration I hadn't considered it but will look at borrowing the farther in laws aerator.
I would at least get the worst of the levelling done before sowing. A mix somewhere between 0 and 5mm deep will be perfect for your seeds.
Multi purpose compost will be fine, or even ericaceous as Dr Mike did to lower the pH if you need to. Sharp sand or horticultural sand (which is a little finer than sharp) is what you want. General builder's sand is too round and when compacted creates severe drainage issues:
The puddle in the foreground was created because the very round sand that sat under the old path had compacted just from me walking on it for a day, and the puddle was still there the following morning. I had to mix in a lot of sharp and compost to turn that sand into something with rather better drainage but not too droughty.
I'd go 1:2:1 soil/sand/compost as a starting point. Dig out some of your existing topsoil and see how its texture compares. I haven't used Wickes topsoil before so you may need to adjust those ratios.
Aeration is always good, even on a relatively young lawn. I also like to thinking of it as providing a key into the existing topsoil for the top dressing.
Any normal water filled garden roller could be described as a lighter roller, at least versus those used on cricket squares
If it's one of those vintage concrete/iron rollers, that could well be getting a little heavy for a lawn and end up causing more issues than it solves. As a guide, I find that my sarrel roller is ideal and that's a little over 50kg with a 22" width.Mr Bishi said:
The 2016 Lawn Thread could be quiet whilst we're all in for treatment then Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
For the part of the lawn closer to the house (below the horizontal line you can see in the picture), I was using a mixture of compost and some fairly sandy top-dressing (I was using up the remainder from a couple of years ago). But I'm lazy and it was taking a long time to mix wheel-barrowfuls and then spread it out, so for the part 'above' the line, I used just a thin covering of compost.
Ah, that sounds absolutely fine then And I completely empathise with the whole mixing in the wheelbarrow issue - I'm wholly sick of doing that now Edit: talking of which, the path is now finally ready to seed
Never ever again
With that and the bottom corner, that's two year's worth of compost production consumed and I lost count of how much sharp sand I've used. I reckon I've shifted almost a tonne of rubble, stones and debris to the dump.Edited by jagnet on Thursday 10th September 16:30
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
That's precisely the mix that I'm using, and it has germinated very quickly in the sunny areas. I've also been using the Wickes topsoil for filling dips, and it's nice stuff - quite fine. I added a bit of horticultural sand
I bought if from the place you recommended so no coincidence.I've just given the lawn a close cut and scarified about half. That's filled one of my green bins so I should be able to fit the rest in the other. Whoever designed the model I have needs shooting. The cable only allows to reach half a lenght of my not very long lawn and by the time you've done a full length it's full.
I think I'll nip to wicks at lunch tomorrow and start with a couple of hundred KG of soil some compost and sand. Sand is cheaper for 10 bags but I'm not sure I'll need 200KG of that. Not sure my suspension will like it either so may have to take a trailer.
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