Discussion
Great stories!
My own little project, learn-to-build-a-coffee-table-without-using-screws is coming on well, I'm learning stuff every single step of the way.
Things wot I have learnt -
Clamps. Clamps are the most useful things to have about, they're like have 3 more sets of arms!
Wood glue. Creates an impressively strong bond. And is great fun peeling it off your hands after!
Biscuits. Makes a quite straightforward but strong joint.
My own little project, learn-to-build-a-coffee-table-without-using-screws is coming on well, I'm learning stuff every single step of the way.
Things wot I have learnt -
Clamps. Clamps are the most useful things to have about, they're like have 3 more sets of arms!
Wood glue. Creates an impressively strong bond. And is great fun peeling it off your hands after!
Biscuits. Makes a quite straightforward but strong joint.
Schmeeky said:
Great stories!
My own little project, learn-to-build-a-coffee-table-without-using-screws is coming on well, I'm learning stuff every single step of the way.
Things wot I have learnt -
Clamps. Clamps are the most useful things to have about, they're like have 3 more sets of arms!
Wood glue. Creates an impressively strong bond. And is great fun peeling it off your hands after!
Biscuits. Makes a quite straightforward but strong joint.
Looks good, how have you joined your mitres? If you've not used biscuits I'd think they'll open up over time because you've fixed end-grain to end-grain which is a very weak glue-only join.My own little project, learn-to-build-a-coffee-table-without-using-screws is coming on well, I'm learning stuff every single step of the way.
Things wot I have learnt -
Clamps. Clamps are the most useful things to have about, they're like have 3 more sets of arms!
Wood glue. Creates an impressively strong bond. And is great fun peeling it off your hands after!
Biscuits. Makes a quite straightforward but strong joint.
The difficult bit with a mitred frame like that is that for all the joints to close perfectly they need to be all exactly 45 degrees and all the pairs exactly the same length too. You should watch some Youtube vidoes on shooting boards for mitres, it's not difficult to make one and it's generally worth making the effort to finish the mitres off that way.
The main issue I'd expect with your design is with wood movement in the top, you should have a google of Breadboard ends, how they work and why and you'll understand what I mean. If your mitres are strong enough then the wood can move without cracking the mitres, but not if you then fill the hole with boards with no scope for movement.
I'm not saying this to be critical, because what you've done looks really good, but because you clearly want to learn and I think these are good pointers for things you'll benefit from learning about.
Nice job, very attractive table.
Careful with biscuits in tables for joints. Biscuits are very suitable for alignment (such as on the mitres on the top) but do not really offer great strength. So in the case of your table, if that shelf is biscuited into the legs, you don’t want to load that with too many magazines and chocolates!
There is quite a lot of stuff on suitable use for biscuits on the web. A similar but arguably stronger approach on the shelf may be dowel joints due to the dowel’s long grain capability versus compressed beechwood in a biscuit. Of course, where tables and chairs are concerned, mortise and tenons are king for all structural joints.
Keep going, looking great!
Careful with biscuits in tables for joints. Biscuits are very suitable for alignment (such as on the mitres on the top) but do not really offer great strength. So in the case of your table, if that shelf is biscuited into the legs, you don’t want to load that with too many magazines and chocolates!
There is quite a lot of stuff on suitable use for biscuits on the web. A similar but arguably stronger approach on the shelf may be dowel joints due to the dowel’s long grain capability versus compressed beechwood in a biscuit. Of course, where tables and chairs are concerned, mortise and tenons are king for all structural joints.
Keep going, looking great!
First off, thank you for all this advice. It's much appreciated! 
I didn't know endgrain-to-endgrain gave a weak joint - that's something new learned!
paulrockliffe said:
Looks good, how have you joined your mitres? If you've not used biscuits I'd think they'll open up over time because you've fixed end-grain to end-grain which is a very weak glue-only join.
I did use biscuits, I got a biscuit cutter for my router, and am trying to use it for as many things as possible!! I didn't know endgrain-to-endgrain gave a weak joint - that's something new learned!paulrockliffe said:
The difficult bit with a mitred frame like that is that for all the joints to close perfectly they need to be all exactly 45 degrees and all the pairs exactly the same length too. You should watch some Youtube vidoes on shooting boards for mitres, it's not difficult to make one and it's generally worth making the effort to finish the mitres off that way.
Yup, I found this, my joints aren't perfect. They do feel strong though. But I agree would be much better if closed. Will follow your advice and have a You Tube session!paulrockliffe said:
The main issue I'd expect with your design is with wood movement in the top, you should have a google of Breadboard ends, how they work and why and you'll understand what I mean. If your mitres are strong enough then the wood can move without cracking the mitres, but not if you then fill the hole with boards with no scope for movement.
This is fascinating - movement of wood was something I'd never even considered!! I've had a quick google, and yikes! I really don't think I have the skills yet to do mortices or dovetails. But T&G I could maybe achieve.. paulrockliffe said:
I'm not saying this to be critical, because what you've done looks really good, but because you clearly want to learn and I think these are good pointers for things you'll benefit from learning about.
All your help is very much appreciated, and I'll take any amount of criticism! One thing I've found, every thing I learn shows me just how much more there is to learn. I am very much enjoying myself though, it's been a while since I've thrown myself into something totally new! I would fill the hole in the table top with a panel that can 'float' on top of a rebate in the frame. Create the rebate by adding wood rather than removing it though seeing as you've already started.
But there's an argument that you should just do it the way you were planning and see what happens. You'll learn more than if you take my advice, but it depends whether you want it to last for 5 years, 50 years or 500 years.
You'll find that with the increasing rabbit holes as you learn stuff that a lot of it's sort of optional, if you make it perfectly it'll last 100 years, if you don't and it only lasts 10, is that a problem? And if you spend all your time making perfect stuff, you'l make less stuff, which is a problem if you're making stuff because you need it. You'll work out the sweet spot though.
But there's an argument that you should just do it the way you were planning and see what happens. You'll learn more than if you take my advice, but it depends whether you want it to last for 5 years, 50 years or 500 years.
You'll find that with the increasing rabbit holes as you learn stuff that a lot of it's sort of optional, if you make it perfectly it'll last 100 years, if you don't and it only lasts 10, is that a problem? And if you spend all your time making perfect stuff, you'l make less stuff, which is a problem if you're making stuff because you need it. You'll work out the sweet spot though.
A couple of pics from years back I found while searching for something else, and I had mentioned earlier in this thread.
So, over the years I have built some wood preparation kit and skills, meaning that I can use cheaper or even free unprepared stock in projects. This is one of two completely ZERO COST (electricity aside) bedside cabinets I built years ago (hence duff camera quality). This is from FREE pallet wood, so cost me glue and electricity to make.
The comments above on wood movement are important to understand when designing. I wanted to quickly knock up some planters from some reasonable (but unprepared of course) hardwood I had lying around the shop for mothers day - again years ago. As usual, even though it was just as stupid planter I wanted to avoid metal fixings not even screws. So, with wet and dry outside and wide panel boards to expand and contract, some grooves were cut to hold the loose side and end panels with expansion grooves in the legs, and mortise and tenons for legs and rails were the order of the day. This is what it looked like when ready to assemble:
The plank to the right is basically what those bits looked like before machining, rough sawn.
... and assembled ready for finish:
I also knocked up a couple of (dovetail jointed obviously) cheap wood inserts to remove the problem of soil rotting out the outer planter which I don't have a picture of unfortunately.
Have a go at some hand cut dovetails like i the Frank Klausz video I linked earlier. If you can cut wide mitres, you can cut dovetails, seriously, you can!
Edit: link from way back.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lrAAglKLPh8
Seriously, watch it, get some cheap pine, a fine toothed sharp saw, a sharp chisel or two and crack on. You will be amazed as you dispel the mythical difficulty behind hand cut dovetails.
So, over the years I have built some wood preparation kit and skills, meaning that I can use cheaper or even free unprepared stock in projects. This is one of two completely ZERO COST (electricity aside) bedside cabinets I built years ago (hence duff camera quality). This is from FREE pallet wood, so cost me glue and electricity to make.
The comments above on wood movement are important to understand when designing. I wanted to quickly knock up some planters from some reasonable (but unprepared of course) hardwood I had lying around the shop for mothers day - again years ago. As usual, even though it was just as stupid planter I wanted to avoid metal fixings not even screws. So, with wet and dry outside and wide panel boards to expand and contract, some grooves were cut to hold the loose side and end panels with expansion grooves in the legs, and mortise and tenons for legs and rails were the order of the day. This is what it looked like when ready to assemble:
The plank to the right is basically what those bits looked like before machining, rough sawn.
... and assembled ready for finish:
I also knocked up a couple of (dovetail jointed obviously) cheap wood inserts to remove the problem of soil rotting out the outer planter which I don't have a picture of unfortunately.
Have a go at some hand cut dovetails like i the Frank Klausz video I linked earlier. If you can cut wide mitres, you can cut dovetails, seriously, you can!
Edit: link from way back.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lrAAglKLPh8
Seriously, watch it, get some cheap pine, a fine toothed sharp saw, a sharp chisel or two and crack on. You will be amazed as you dispel the mythical difficulty behind hand cut dovetails.
Edited by SeeFive on Friday 21st June 14:26
Good timing.
I was just thinking if you like using the router for making joints, you should check out loose tenons. Searched on Youtube and a brand new video today was the top hit, and from the person I was going to try and find an earlier video from anyway!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws1D23zzCVc
Quite an easy way for making even stronger joints. All his videos are really, really good. learnt a lot from his channel.
As you'll learn with your mitres, repeatability is everything with woodworking. So being able to set up some sort of stop block is really important so you get your length the same every time.
I was just thinking if you like using the router for making joints, you should check out loose tenons. Searched on Youtube and a brand new video today was the top hit, and from the person I was going to try and find an earlier video from anyway!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws1D23zzCVc
Quite an easy way for making even stronger joints. All his videos are really, really good. learnt a lot from his channel.
As you'll learn with your mitres, repeatability is everything with woodworking. So being able to set up some sort of stop block is really important so you get your length the same every time.
For a kiln dried softwood such as pine we normally assume a shrinkage percentage of up to 3%, so 3mm per metre when taking it from the workshop to a centrally heated house. Time of year makes a big difference depending upon temp and humidity, in winter we used to get a few issues taking completed furniture from the workshop which was cold straight to a warm heated house. We had the workshop re-insulated and Clad and it’s been fine since. Pine will draw in moisture if not kept well leading it to shrink more later. Ideally any softwood boards need to be kept wrapped in plastic or it will cup. It helps to prevent issues a lot if the products are painted or finished and sealed well.
I am in the process of replacing my windowboards and have them machined in American White Oak, cut to size and ready to finish and install.
I am advised to use Dulux Trade Diamond Glaze as a coating to make sure it has the toughness to prevent any scratching/indentation when somebody throws their keys on it.
Any alternative suggestions from the floor please?
I am advised to use Dulux Trade Diamond Glaze as a coating to make sure it has the toughness to prevent any scratching/indentation when somebody throws their keys on it.
Any alternative suggestions from the floor please?
SeeFive said:
Got any off cuts?
Different coloured wood??
Got a lathe???
Like the look of dovetails????
Go on, have a go
My first prototype, very poorly aligned while I struggled with glue up... the better ones all got nicked by family and friends.
Very nice! For one very confused and stupid moment I wondered how on earth you cut accurate dovetails in something that shape.Different coloured wood??
Got a lathe???
Like the look of dovetails????
Go on, have a go
My first prototype, very poorly aligned while I struggled with glue up... the better ones all got nicked by family and friends.
Just scrolled back through the thread a bit and saw the planters. Almost identical to what I've been planning to make for a couple of weeks. Needless to say, rather than starting on them, I've actually been building jigs and sleds for the slightly terrifying table saw I bought on ebay a little while ago. But I'm now ready to go into mass production. Even though I'll only be building two. It's stupid for a variety of reasons, but I'm tempted to see if I can make at least one interlocking wedged half-dovetail joint so that the load on the bottom of the planter pulls the side panels together. It won't help with weathering, but it'd be fun to try.
ATG said:
SeeFive said:
Got any off cuts?
Different coloured wood??
Got a lathe???
Like the look of dovetails????
Go on, have a go
My first prototype, very poorly aligned while I struggled with glue up... the better ones all got nicked by family and friends.
Very nice! For one very confused and stupid moment I wondered how on earth you cut accurate dovetails in something that shape.Different coloured wood??
Got a lathe???
Like the look of dovetails????
Go on, have a go
My first prototype, very poorly aligned while I struggled with glue up... the better ones all got nicked by family and friends.
A common reaction till you look closely. The grain on that mahogany gives it away completely. Two board offcuts. Only one full length sliding dovetail on the edges of the boards interlocking the two edges and glue it. Then a bit of concentric circle marking and cutting at an angle on the bandsaw, a glue up and a quick spin on the lathe gets you home in time for tea and medals with a couple of foot long by 6 inch board offcuts turned into a 12 inch bowl and a confused missus as to how it came together.
A fun way to use up less than an hour at each end of the day in the workshop whilst doing something proper. I love the stupid little projects. The scroll saw I recently bought will get a lot of unusual stocking fillers ready this Christmas. I will get some pics up when I get around to making them.
The other uses for those board offcuts include a backer board to have random holes drilled into them, protecting the drill press, clamp blocks, dustbin fillers or firewood. Some may say that any of the above are better than the bowls
RSVR101 said:
For a kiln dried softwood such as pine we normally assume a shrinkage percentage of up to 3%, so 3mm per metre when taking it from the workshop to a centrally heated house. Time of year makes a big difference depending upon temp and humidity, in winter we used to get a few issues taking completed furniture from the workshop which was cold straight to a warm heated house. We had the workshop re-insulated and Clad and it’s been fine since. Pine will draw in moisture if not kept well leading it to shrink more later. Ideally any softwood boards need to be kept wrapped in plastic or it will cup. It helps to prevent issues a lot if the products are painted or finished and sealed well.
Are you saying your timber is shrinking in its length’? Thats a new one on me.
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