Discussion
Enut said:
Quick legal question, I have a friend who had solar panels installed about the same time as me (6 months ago) however he doesn't have a smart meter, so when he is exporting to the grid his meter actually spins backwards! In real terms this means that he can use the grid as a massive efficient battery. He is in effect getting paid for the export at the same rate he pays for his energy rather than the derisory rate that I'm getting.
He is concerned at the moment as his meter is currently reading less than it was the last time he submitted a reading so either he has to submit a false reading, turn his solar off for a while, or start using some high energy using appliances (like his hot tub) to actually show some usage!
Obviously the energy supplier will be suspicious due to his very low/negative usage but is he actually doing anything wrong and are there any legal implications?
Any help much appreciated.
I'd be fairly sure he's breaking a number of laws.He is concerned at the moment as his meter is currently reading less than it was the last time he submitted a reading so either he has to submit a false reading, turn his solar off for a while, or start using some high energy using appliances (like his hot tub) to actually show some usage!
Obviously the energy supplier will be suspicious due to his very low/negative usage but is he actually doing anything wrong and are there any legal implications?
Any help much appreciated.
I'd advise him to get proper advice if he's going to do anything other than attempt to get the system 'normalised ASAP',
His installation is probably in breach of wiring regs.
He's probably breaching his agreement with his supplier.
Submitting fraudulent readings sounds like a criminal act.
The usual advice (this does come up a lot) is to make sure you have notified your supplier. It is then their responsibility to update the meter. If they have reason to believe it is running backwards and you have not told them then they might well estimate your real usage and they will of course err in their favour when doing so.
We have solar panels capable of generating 4kW through a Fox inverter and 6.4kWh of Lux batteries (2x 3.2kWh) with a Lux controller. Installed by different companies.
After the batteries had been in for 2 days they failed dead - eventually someone managed to update the firmware and we saw a few 'bus voltage high' errors before they ran out of juice. Batteries replaced (quite a saga) and the first time the oven was used we got the same message. Fortunately the batteries are now capable of resetting over time, we get the error a few times, often when the oven is on.
Can anyone tell me what 'bus voltage high' is indicating? I am engaging with the company who fitted them, but also trying to understand what is happening.
After the batteries had been in for 2 days they failed dead - eventually someone managed to update the firmware and we saw a few 'bus voltage high' errors before they ran out of juice. Batteries replaced (quite a saga) and the first time the oven was used we got the same message. Fortunately the batteries are now capable of resetting over time, we get the error a few times, often when the oven is on.
Can anyone tell me what 'bus voltage high' is indicating? I am engaging with the company who fitted them, but also trying to understand what is happening.
That doesn't seem right at all does it. On our (givenergy) setup, I have intentionally chucked much more load in to it than the inverter can handle and you can see the inverter maxxes out and then anything else comes from the grid. I have no idea how it all works, despite my engineering background I find this type of electronics a bit voodoo.
Arnold Cunningham said:
I have no idea how it all works, despite my engineering background I find this type of electronics a bit voodoo.
One lightbulb moment for me was learning that different bits of kit put out power at slightly different voltages. So if your mains is at say 230V then your inverter might put out 232V and any appliance will get fed/will take the higher voltage. At least that's how I understand it. You can get the same sort of thing if you consider electricity flows as analogous to water - more pressure in one pipe will win out over a lower pressure source.We've been "off grid" for most of today while the power company did some scheduled tree cutting and overhead line maintenance in the area.
This was the first test of our automatic cutover and it worked perfectly; solar panels kept the batteries topped up while they in turn powered the CH, and an extension lead from a garage socket kept my UPS (and hence PC, router, mesh and RPiHole) and the fish tank powered.
This was the first test of our automatic cutover and it worked perfectly; solar panels kept the batteries topped up while they in turn powered the CH, and an extension lead from a garage socket kept my UPS (and hence PC, router, mesh and RPiHole) and the fish tank powered.
WrekinCrew said:
We've been "off grid" for most of today while the power company did some scheduled tree cutting and overhead line maintenance in the area.
This was the first test of our automatic cutover and it worked perfectly; solar panels kept the batteries topped up while they in turn powered the CH, and an extension lead from a garage socket kept my UPS (and hence PC, router, mesh and RPiHole) and the fish tank powered.
I'd love to pick up on this. Why the UPS, does that ensure uninterrupted power - or is it required to run from the batteries if the mains has gone? This was the first test of our automatic cutover and it worked perfectly; solar panels kept the batteries topped up while they in turn powered the CH, and an extension lead from a garage socket kept my UPS (and hence PC, router, mesh and RPiHole) and the fish tank powered.
Penny Whistle said:
Arnold Cunningham said:
I have no idea how it all works, despite my engineering background I find this type of electronics a bit voodoo.
One lightbulb moment for me was learning that different bits of kit put out power at slightly different voltages. So if your mains is at say 230V then your inverter might put out 232V and any appliance will get fed/will take the higher voltage. At least that's how I understand it. You can get the same sort of thing if you consider electricity flows as analogous to water - more pressure in one pipe will win out over a lower pressure source.Penny Whistle said:
Arnold Cunningham said:
I have no idea how it all works, despite my engineering background I find this type of electronics a bit voodoo.
One lightbulb moment for me was learning that different bits of kit put out power at slightly different voltages. So if your mains is at say 230V then your inverter might put out 232V and any appliance will get fed/will take the higher voltage. At least that's how I understand it. You can get the same sort of thing if you consider electricity flows as analogous to water - more pressure in one pipe will win out over a lower pressure source.
I assume it's much the same technique used to load-balance across multiple DC power supplies in large scale computer systems - if a PSU finds itself supplying less current than another PSU in the system it slightly ups its output voltage to try to bring things into sync. In the case of a house being supplied by both the grid and a local source (such solar panels) the local source will be set to supply a voltage slightly higher than the grid voltage; as the load supplied by the local source approaches the limits of what it can supply the voltage will start to drop off allowing the load to be shared with the grid feed. One issue with such a system would be that if the local grid is supplying a voltage right at the top of the permissible range (in the UK that's 253v), there is no overhead for the local source to use to overwhelm the grid's supply without pushing the house's voltage out of spec. No idea how they deal with that?
We have 5.6kw of panels now and I was scratching my head as to why I was maxxed out at 3.6kw exporting on a lovely sunny day.....after a cpl of calls to my supplier found out that I am limited to exporting just the 3.5kw coz of the state of the line/transformer etc local to me.....bummer. Still its nearly time to adjust my rockers to their peak summer position...
ruwokeenuff said:
We have 5.6kw of panels now and I was scratching my head as to why I was maxxed out at 3.6kw exporting on a lovely sunny day.....after a cpl of calls to my supplier found out that I am limited to exporting just the 3.5kw coz of the state of the line/transformer etc local to me.....bummer. Still its nearly time to adjust my rockers to their peak summer position...
There is a different approval process for systems which can output more than 16 amps (i.e. 3.68kW). Below that limit your DNO (Distribution Network Operator, e.g. SSE, NGED, Scottish Power) just needs to be notified post-installation using a process referred to as G98. Above 3.68kW, approval has to be obtained before installation starts, in accordance with G99 and the DNO can insist your output is limited to whatever they deem the local network can handle, bearing in mind the age and nature of the network, how many other wind/solar installations there are nearby, etc.Many installers will only be prepared to install <3.68kW systems as it is quicker, more certain and less risky.
Penny Whistle said:
ruwokeenuff said:
We have 5.6kw of panels now and I was scratching my head as to why I was maxxed out at 3.6kw exporting on a lovely sunny day.....after a cpl of calls to my supplier found out that I am limited to exporting just the 3.5kw coz of the state of the line/transformer etc local to me.....bummer. Still its nearly time to adjust my rockers to their peak summer position...
There is a different approval process for systems which can output more than 16 amps (i.e. 3.68kW). Below that limit your DNO (Distribution Network Operator, e.g. SSE, NGED, Scottish Power) just needs to be notified post-installation using a process referred to as G98. Above 3.68kW, approval has to be obtained before installation starts, in accordance with G99 and the DNO can insist your output is limited to whatever they deem the local network can handle, bearing in mind the age and nature of the network, how many other wind/solar installations there are nearby, etc.Many installers will only be prepared to install <3.68kW systems as it is quicker, more certain and less risky.
ruwokeenuff said:
We have 5.6kw of panels now and I was scratching my head as to why I was maxxed out at 3.6kw exporting on a lovely sunny day.....after a cpl of calls to my supplier found out that I am limited to exporting just the 3.5kw coz of the state of the line/transformer etc local to me.....bummer. Still its nearly time to adjust my rockers to their peak summer position...
If that is like to happen much, you could take some DC from the panels and use it to charge batteries or heat water or whatever.To comply with the regs, you might have to switch some panels out of the mains-connected circuit entirely. You'd maybe end up with a very complex system which might not reward you very much. Having 5.6kW of panels with a 3.6kW inverter means you will generate more power and be able to use or export it at all times when a 3.6kW array was generating less than 64%. That's a big slice of a day like today.
Alternatively you could angle some panels E and some W to get a longer generation 'day'.
OutInTheShed said:
ruwokeenuff said:
We have 5.6kw of panels now and I was scratching my head as to why I was maxxed out at 3.6kw exporting on a lovely sunny day.....after a cpl of calls to my supplier found out that I am limited to exporting just the 3.5kw coz of the state of the line/transformer etc local to me.....bummer. Still its nearly time to adjust my rockers to their peak summer position...
If that is like to happen much, you could take some DC from the panels and use it to charge batteries or heat water or whatever.To comply with the regs, you might have to switch some panels out of the mains-connected circuit entirely. You'd maybe end up with a very complex system which might not reward you very much. Having 5.6kW of panels with a 3.6kW inverter means you will generate more power and be able to use or export it at all times when a 3.6kW array was generating less than 64%. That's a big slice of a day like today.
Alternatively you could angle some panels E and some W to get a longer generation 'day'.
OutInTheShed said:
Alternatively you could angle some panels E and some W to get a longer generation 'day'.
That sounds like it's worth trying for "science" purposes. This chap in the US has been experimenting with splitting the array to include E & W segments to reduce clipping - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-5qcmlMLSgETA and the follow-up experimenting with a SW array (and could have SE). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7xnY84Ch1E
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