Trades daily rates

[Aventador 700]

Aluminati said:

Pheo said:

Nothing wrong with a tradesperson warning a decent wage; everyone has a right to a family life, to put food on the table, to be able to provide.

That being said, some fundamental differences between the skill set and abilities needed between bricklaying and being a surgeon, or GP. One requires a high level of academic skill, knowledge retention and recall, plus extensive training. One is more focused on learning muscle memory, and one particular skill. Both have their value and neither should be denigrated.

There is also an aspect of “danger money” or responsibility pay. A GP sees, let’s assume a 9hr day, 30 patients in that day. They have to make sure they appropriately treat all 30 every time. Failure means potentially someone could die. Relatively high stakes.

Bricklayer could of course in a very bad scenario cause risk to life and limb, but likely much less of a risk and across far fewer people.

End of the day nothing stopping the brickie becoming a doctor and the doctor becoming a brickie. If it was easier everyone would be at it!

The GP slings it over to the nearest A&E, let’s get real here. The NHS is worth 2 tenths of fkall, maybe because I didn’t clap for them. I, and many trades have gone home with their blisters bleeding, the skin on my hands so thick I have to cut the calluses off with a Stanley blade. Do I have any debt ? No. Do the bank own my house ? No. Do I YouTube vids how to save 20p ? No.

Some of these people couldnt even spend all day on their feet, never mind wield a hammer, hold something vibrating all day or repetitively carry sheets to where you need them, fire doors up, down, up down stairs all day to get exact fitment, there was a reason i could charge what i did, nobody wanted to or even ‘could’ do it.

At 14 years old i was on a Bosch electric concrete breaker, massively heavy vs any road pneumatic tool, i’d be on it for half the day breaking out posts before moving onto the next job, just getting it off the truck at 14 years old left me looking like 16 year old, torn skin on shoulder from carrying channeled concrete posts for fencing were fun to! Fencing was one of the hardest jobs on sit, that and roofing..

Thanks though Dad X you taught me discipline & that discipline lead to me finding my soul mate who saw those qualities, also found me debt free, owning my own homestead in foreign lands with a garage full of supercars, i owe him everything & yet hated him every day…

[stinkyspanner]

As an ex-tradesman (mechanic) I certainly found my trade undervalued, that's why I left it. My buddy who is still working on cars, and is highly skilled including all manor of fabrication skills has only just managed to find a decent job which recognises his talent and pays a reasonable wage.
The trouble is that a lot of normal people (not PH'ers obviously) might earn £100 a day so getting a plumber/decorator/spark in for £250 a day is not really viable, whilst in reality £250 a day for a skilled person is cheap

[Slowboathome]

Personally I think good tradespeople are well worth paying a premium for. It's the messers, bullstters and 'you don't need to mitre this skirting' types that grind my gears.

Didn't there used to be a firm in London called 'Gentleman Builders? Maybe they're still going. They used to charge a lot more than normal rates because they turned up when they said they would and they did a good job.

[Tin Hat]

Aventador 700 said:

Condi said:

Aluminati said:

While it’s always these type of professions that are always good for a virtual signal, there is no reason they deserve to earn more than a tradesman.

Maybe the 7 years of university required to start the profession?

And how long do you think these tradesman have been apprentices and practising their skill before they can charge £2-300 a day?

I started out specialising in internal & external door fitting in the 90s and was getting £350-400 a day, so certainly dont think £300 a day is prohibitive now.

I spent 2 years on a YTS @ £27.00 and then £35.00 per week, then 2 more years of low pay getting up at the crack of dawn to travel to miserable sites throughout London to complete my Carpentry training. Cold in winter, hot in summer, often dirty and exhausted. It took another 2 years to feel ‘trained’.

Not moaning or looking for sympathy, but that’s what it takes at a minimum.

I gained a very valued skill, mostly due to the generosity of those that shared their knowledge without question.

A competent tradesman deserves to get paid good money

[lrdisco]

Sat here on a Saturday morning unable to sleep due to pain at 50 years old with ice on my elbow, bad back, waiting for knee replacement, skin on my fingers split, carpal tunnel and work related arthritis tell me how trades are over paid.

[Teddy Lop]

monkfish1 said:

I dont think we ever have valued trades in this country.

But it got much worse when Tony Blair decided everone should go to university. The message being anyone that didnt was a failure.

And here we are. Lack of trades people.

Not going to get better either.

You reap what you sow.

Anyone with practical skills now is never going to be short of work.

True. Even though the skilled trades have always been talked up, working with your hands has always been looked down on by many.

But today I'm finding there's even more divergence going on; people have absolutely no idea what it is we do, and often no comprehension of how little they know, yet still labour under a delusion that because it's dirty work undertaken by non-graduates it must be simple and lesser. The influx of cheap east European labour, who bring with them a subservience and willingness to stumble through any task no matter how many attempts it takes, hasn't helped this - the number of times I've had to ask people to a) stop calling the idiot who's work I'm fixing an "electrician", he wasn't, and b) stop trying to help and/or direct, you now have someone who knows what he's doing.

Even the industry is contaminated by this thinking, marching forwards issuing ever more stupid rules thinking they can regulate their way out of poor workmanship by those who don't know or really care. No. Accept and appreciate that every man has to be skilled at his job and enforce that as your starting base. As mentioned, painting is one of the best and simplest examples of this - the "any idiot can paint right" idea. No, any idiot can smossh paint onto a wall, a decent painter with speed, skill and care is something else entirely.

There was a moment back there when the laptop class were sent home and told to fiddle around and videochat all day where a few did look at those who do the things that keep the world going round and twigged a bit though.

[Tin Hat]

Teddy Lop said:

monkfish1 said:

I dont think we ever have valued trades in this country.

But it got much worse when Tony Blair decided everone should go to university. The message being anyone that didnt was a failure.

And here we are. Lack of trades people.

Not going to get better either.

You reap what you sow.

Anyone with practical skills now is never going to be short of work.

True. Even though the skilled trades have always been talked up, working with your hands has always been looked down on by many.

But today I'm finding there's even more divergence going on; people have absolutely no idea what it is we do, and often no comprehension of how little they know, yet still labour under a delusion that because it's dirty work undertaken by non-graduates it must be simple and lesser. The influx of cheap east European labour, who bring with them a subservience and willingness to stumble through any task no matter how many attempts it takes, hasn't helped this - the number of times I've had to ask people to a) stop calling the idiot who's work I'm fixing an "electrician", he wasn't, and b) stop trying to help and/or direct, you now have someone who knows what he's doing.

Even the industry is contaminated by this thinking, marching forwards issuing ever more stupid rules thinking they can regulate their way out of poor workmanship by those who don't know or really care. No. Accept and appreciate that every man has to be skilled at his job and enforce that as your starting base. As mentioned, painting is one of the best and simplest examples of this - the "any idiot can paint right" idea. No, any idiot can smossh paint onto a wall, a decent painter with speed, skill and care is something else entirely.

There was a moment back there when the laptop class were sent home and told to fiddle around and videochat all day where a few did look at those who do the things that keep the world going round and twigged a bit though.

I’m firmly with you both - Blair and his cronies narrowed the field even more by championing NVQs, so your typical trade recruit had to also master English and Maths skills to gain their craft, and ( big surprise ) all those that historically joined the industry because they were not at all academic struggled to get the NVQ qualification.

Hopefully wages will increase as the skills become more scarce and the industry will recruit again. The process will only take 10 years or so……

[Tin Hat]

Teddy Lop said:

monkfish1 said:

I dont think we ever have valued trades in this country.

But it got much worse when Tony Blair decided everone should go to university. The message being anyone that didnt was a failure.

And here we are. Lack of trades people.

Not going to get better either.

You reap what you sow.

Anyone with practical skills now is never going to be short of work.

True. Even though the skilled trades have always been talked up, working with your hands has always been looked down on by many.

But today I'm finding there's even more divergence going on; people have absolutely no idea what it is we do, and often no comprehension of how little they know, yet still labour under a delusion that because it's dirty work undertaken by non-graduates it must be simple and lesser. The influx of cheap east European labour, who bring with them a subservience and willingness to stumble through any task no matter how many attempts it takes, hasn't helped this - the number of times I've had to ask people to a) stop calling the idiot who's work I'm fixing an "electrician", he wasn't, and b) stop trying to help and/or direct, you now have someone who knows what he's doing.

Even the industry is contaminated by this thinking, marching forwards issuing ever more stupid rules thinking they can regulate their way out of poor workmanship by those who don't know or really care. No. Accept and appreciate that every man has to be skilled at his job and enforce that as your starting base. As mentioned, painting is one of the best and simplest examples of this - the "any idiot can paint right" idea. No, any idiot can smossh paint onto a wall, a decent painter with speed, skill and care is something else entirely.

There was a moment back there when the laptop class were sent home and told to fiddle around and videochat all day where a few did look at those who do the things that keep the world going round and twigged a bit though.

I’m firmly with you both - Blair and his cronies narrowed the field even more by championing NVQs, so your typical trade recruit had to also master English and Maths skills to gain their craft, and ( big surprise ) all those that historically joined the industry because they were not at all academic struggled to get the NVQ qualification.

Hopefully wages will increase as the skills become more scarce and the industry will recruit again. The process will only take 10 years or so……

[Saleen836]

Tin Hat said:

Teddy Lop said:

monkfish1 said:

I dont think we ever have valued trades in this country.

But it got much worse when Tony Blair decided everone should go to university. The message being anyone that didnt was a failure.

And here we are. Lack of trades people.

Not going to get better either.

You reap what you sow.

Anyone with practical skills now is never going to be short of work.

True. Even though the skilled trades have always been talked up, working with your hands has always been looked down on by many.

But today I'm finding there's even more divergence going on; people have absolutely no idea what it is we do, and often no comprehension of how little they know, yet still labour under a delusion that because it's dirty work undertaken by non-graduates it must be simple and lesser. The influx of cheap east European labour, who bring with them a subservience and willingness to stumble through any task no matter how many attempts it takes, hasn't helped this - the number of times I've had to ask people to a) stop calling the idiot who's work I'm fixing an "electrician", he wasn't, and b) stop trying to help and/or direct, you now have someone who knows what he's doing.

Even the industry is contaminated by this thinking, marching forwards issuing ever more stupid rules thinking they can regulate their way out of poor workmanship by those who don't know or really care. No. Accept and appreciate that every man has to be skilled at his job and enforce that as your starting base. As mentioned, painting is one of the best and simplest examples of this - the "any idiot can paint right" idea. No, any idiot can smossh paint onto a wall, a decent painter with speed, skill and care is something else entirely.

There was a moment back there when the laptop class were sent home and told to fiddle around and videochat all day where a few did look at those who do the things that keep the world going round and twigged a bit though.

I’m firmly with you both - Blair and his cronies narrowed the field even more by championing NVQs, so your typical trade recruit had to also master English and Maths skills to gain their craft, and ( big surprise ) all those that historically joined the industry because they were not at all academic struggled to get the NVQ qualification.

Hopefully wages will increase as the skills become more scarce and the industry will recruit again. The process will only take 10 years or so……

Really? the qualifications for me to do my trade (tape/jointing} was on the job training after learning plastering the same way, the government then introduced a way to make money from tradesman by introducing the CSCS card scheme (you can't get on construction sites without one), as I had no formal qualifications I could only get a basic card which was valid for 12 months and to get this you had to do a H&S test which was and still asks you to answer questions which are approx 90% all about groundworks irrelevant of your trade,to get a 5 year CSCS card I was told I had to obtain the NVQ level 2 qualification which would cost me approx (at the time) £3k, I politely declined and was then told as I do not have any other qualifications the government would pay for it!
The best part..... someone arrived on a site I was working on and followed me around for 30mins taking photos of me doing different aspects of my job even a photo of me putting my rubbish in the bin (I kid you not), I have a nice A4 folder of copies of said photos and an NVQ level 2 qualification
I also now have a 'skilled worker' CSCS card valid for 5 years, when the cards expire a replacement is £36 and as the H&S test only lasts for 2 years you pay a further £22.50 to retake this.
As usual the government come up with these ideas and companies spring up to take advantage, £3k per person for what is essentially less than a days work taking photos and creating a folder, even better is now a few of the housing sites I work on do not recognise the scheme so are not fussed when I asked if they wanted to take a copy of my CSCS card during the site induction

[Mr Whippy]

I can’t see salaries rising much.

Good trades people already get paid well.

Demand will likely fall, and the good people will remain in work at increasingly competitive prices, and the crap trades people won’t get any work.

[anonymous-user]

There is a funny Facebook group called "Nightmare customers and Non payers", where the trades submit screenshots of customer responses to their quotes and invoices.

It is full of gems from utterly delusional people. Stuff like customers sending snotty texts to trades because they were absolutely shocked that a full days work costs more than £80 these days...

[Square Leg]

Lord Marylebone said:

There is a funny Facebook group called "Nightmare customers and Non payers", where the trades submit screenshots of customer responses to their quotes and invoices.

It is full of gems from utterly delusional people. Stuff like customers sending snotty texts to trades because they were absolutely shocked that a full days work costs more than £80 these days...

It’s certainly an eye opener.
Some people in this country (and on here..) have absolutely no clue.

[anonymous-user]

Square Leg said:

It’s certainly an eye opener.
Some people in this country (and on here..) have absolutely no clue.

It's amazing.

I dread to think of the state of some of these peoples homes. They clearly never get any work done by actual trades, and must simply bodge stuff themselves or just leave everything falling to bits.

[Slowboathome]

Square Leg said:

Lord Marylebone said:

There is a funny Facebook group called "Nightmare customers and Non payers", where the trades submit screenshots of customer responses to their quotes and invoices.

It is full of gems from utterly delusional people. Stuff like customers sending snotty texts to trades because they were absolutely shocked that a full days work costs more than £80 these days...

It’s certainly an eye opener.
Some people in this country (and on here..) have absolutely no clue.

Some customers clearly think 1950s prices apply in Trades world.

But a few tradespeople not doing themselves any favours on there either.

[Condi]

Lord Marylebone said:

Stuff like customers sending snotty texts to trades because they were absolutely shocked that a full days work costs more than £80 these days...

Thing is there are a lot of people in the country who do only get £80 after a days work, or less.... Even the living wage is less than £11/hr, so for a 8 hour day they're getting about £84 before tax and NI.

It's quite easy to see why someone earning £85 a day is shocked that they're being asked to pay 3 or 4 times that to employ someone else.

Obviously, in the world of PH directors it's beyond comprehension anyone works for minimum wage, but some people do....

[anonymous-user]

Condi said:

Lord Marylebone said:

Stuff like customers sending snotty texts to trades because they were absolutely shocked that a full days work costs more than £80 these days...

Thing is there are a lot of people in the country who do only get £80 after a days work, or less.... Even the living wage is less than £11/hr, so for a 8 hour day they're getting about £84 before tax and NI.

It's quite easy to see why someone earning £85 a day is shocked that they're being asked to pay 3 or 4 times that to employ someone else.

Obviously, in the world of PH directors it's beyond comprehension anyone works for minimum wage, but some people do....

I get what you are saying, but three points:

Most £11 per hour jobs will require no skills or qualifications. I should know, I've done plenty of minimum wage jobs during my A Level and Uni years. Simply turn up and be shown what to do. This isn't the same for trades. It can take years to become fully competent and skilled at joinery, plumbing, and so on.

Out of their day rate, trades have to buy themselves tools, vans, insurance, and so on, plus pay the daily running costs of their equipment. They also spend hours each month quoting and invoicing, which no one pays them for. Then you have 4 or 5 weeks holiday per year, plus bank holidays, which no one pays them for and is just an outright loss of income. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, a day rate of £150-300 actually translates into considerably less.

Supply and demand. There are more people available to fulfil living wage jobs, and fewer people who can rewire a house or fit a bathroom. This shortage of tradesmen is getting worse, especially since Brexit.

I'm not a tradesmen, and I never have been, but I fully understand the reasons why they charge what they charge.

[Mick Dastardly]

Last year I set 2 of my sons up in a non-skilled trade.

They currently earn c.£180 a day each after expenses, and by the end of the year this will be c.£250 a day. After that, if they continue to reinvest in their business and employ additional staff, their earnings will increase exponentially without them doing any more work.

90% of their work is repeat business, they never have to go out and find new customers, and their competitors never attempt to steal their customers.(and vice versa)

Anyone guess what the business is?

[037]

Is it Gardening?

[jimwilli]

Mick Dastardly said:

Last year I set 2 of my sons up in a non-skilled trade.

They currently earn c.£180 a day each after expenses, and by the end of the year this will be c.£250 a day. After that, if they continue to reinvest in their business and employ additional staff, their earnings will increase exponentially without them doing any more work.

90% of their work is repeat business, they never have to go out and find new customers, and their competitors never attempt to steal their customers.(and vice versa)

Anyone guess what the business is?

Window cleaning?

[Mr Magooagain]

Window cleaners?