Buying a house that lacks some building regs approval

[TorqueVR]

It's a dog's breakfast, you said as much in your original post and the photo confirms it. In my experience when you've found one or two bodges its fair to assume that whoever did the work was clueless and the problems are much more extensive than you could predict. Even if you are prepared to take it on you might well find that in our increasingly risk-adverse world you will never be able to sell if if and when you want to move on.

If this house was the subject of one of my reports I'd be saying don't touch it with a barge pole. My advice is to buy somewhere else.

[V8RX7]

mjb1 said:

Anyone in the trade able to comment on what's visible in the above photo (I appreciate you can't see much there)?

It appears to be, as you said, a timber stud on top of a stone/block wall.

[mjb1]

Vendor is saying that as it was built before 1985 Building Act came in, then it didn't need approval. Stuff all over the internet seems to corroborate that. But bloke I know in building control says that isn't correct, and that work before '85 still needed consent?

Vendor is refusing permission for an invasive investigation by a structural engineer: "everything was fine when I bought it, so it can't be an issue now".

[bobtail4x4]

walk, no RUN away.

[V8RX7]

Unless you're getting at least £20k off market value I'd walk.

[hairykrishna]

We bought our house knowing that an extension to the kitchen doesn't meet building regs. It was done originally in the early 80's, re-purposing an old store shed, and is a proper bodge. Our lender has a retention on our mortgage (£5k) until we finish sorting it out.

We went in with our eyes open and had a full survey. If the seller hadn't wanted that we would have laughed at them and moved on.

[ATTAK Z]

Next step ...










WALK AWAY !

[mjb1]

I've received the report from the structural engineer's visual inspection. Says that both the first floor and loft conversion floor joists appear to be undersized. Couldn't see the supporting beams (not even sure if timber or steel), so couldn't comment on those, as expected. He also says it wouldn't have met 1984 fire regs (and probably not earlier ones), and would be almost impossible to alter the layout to make it comply with those.

I've also spoken to a couple of estate agents about the potential effects on the value. All are saying that they couldn't market the property counting the loft rooms as habitable rooms. So that effectively turns it from being a 3 bed house to 1 bed in estate agents listings and on Rightmove etc. Various opinions on value, one said -20k per bedroom, another said it might not make much difference.

Vendor is maintaining that it didn't need approval as was pre 1985 building regs changes, which is kind of backed up by the surveyor.

[bobtail4x4]

the building regs existed before 1985, its just a cut off and the approved documents arrived then,

you still needed B regs then.

I would offer the value without the extension, or less the cost of making it suitable/stand up etc.

[mjb1]

I telephoned Building Control again today. Now they are telling me that they lost all their paper records in a fire a few years ago, and don't have anything going back that far. So there's no way it can be proven whether or not structural plans were ever submitted/approved. Not sure if that's a blessing or a curse in this situation! They also said that couldn't/wouldn't regularise anything started pre 1985, which confirms what I'd already heard. So I've emailed and asked for that in writing.

[hairyben]

mjb1 said:

I telephoned Building Control again today. Now they are telling me that they lost all their paper records in a fire a few years ago, and don't have anything going back that far. So there's no way it can be proven whether or not structural plans were ever submitted/approved. Not sure if that's a blessing or a curse in this situation! They also said that couldn't/wouldn't regularise anything started pre 1985, which confirms what I'd already heard. So I've emailed and asked for that in writing.

You come across as pretty determined to justify what everyone except the vendor is telling you is a basket case.... you realise you'll probably take massive pain when you come to sell it as most purchasers will be taking the same advice? Unless you pay twice and improve it?

[CaptainSlow]

mjb1 said:

Vendor is maintaining that it didn't need approval as was pre 1985 building regs changes, which is kind of backed up by the surveyor.

There may be a time when you become that vendor, think about it.

[jas xjr]

quite apart from the possible impact on price . i would be worried about how the extension is going to behave in the event of a fire. how efficient is the insulation, how safe are the electrics?

[mjb1]

To update on this - I'm teetering on the fence with it still. Have to make a decision to either pull out or exchange on Monday. Tried asking for a modest 10k reduction or contribution towards bringing it up to standard, got told to go forth and multiply.

I've now established that where there should really be steels across the middle of the building at 1st floor and 2nd floor level there is just a 10" x 3" length (3.6m) of timber at each level, supporting the floor joists.

Had a couple of builders look at it to give rough estimates (at my conveyancer's suggestion). One said 5k minimum, although he seemed to be very small time. Another more reputable one refused to offer any opinion on costs without seeing structural drawings to know what exactly needs constructing (not much use to me, but seems a more honest answer). What he did say was "it's been standing 30 years with no signs of movement, probably best to just leave it well alone... trying to do anything with it would be opening a can of worms".

If I wasn't living here already, and in love with the location, I definitely wouldn't be going ahead. But I work from home and have a huge amount of work stuff in the garage. So moving would be a big, expensive, time consuming thing (even assuming I find somewhere suitable to move to). I'd probably be looking at separate business and living premises to get what I need. Delaying has already cost me best part of 2k (extra months rent and structural engineers fees), if I pull out it'll almost certainly be another 2 months rent before I'm moved, along with the mortgage and legal fees down the drain. Probably won't get back my AST deposit either, without a massive fight. All in all, not buying could cost me getting on for 5 figures anyway, and I'll still be renting, possibly in a worse location than I am now.

[ATTAK Z]

A 10"x3" timber spanning 3.6 m is totally inadequate in that situation. I think you have received all the information and advice required to make the decision. Good luck !

[Robertj21a]

You seem to have convinced yourself to go ahead anyway !

[twokcc]

And just remember if you ever want to sell this will come back to bite you.
I'd stick it out for £10k minimum discount

[V8RX7]

As long as you realise you're paying £20k over the odds - fair enough.

I think I stole my house, the local valuer disagreed - but he wasn't buying it, so who cares !

[elanfan]

Why is the vendor selling? He is unlikely to be able to sell to anyone else as the agents would now be obliged to pass on what they know to a potential purchaser (and I'm sure you'd tell anyone viewing the property too).

You'll get stuck with this in future. Let the vendor sweat and offer £20k below on exchange day! Sounds like you'd virtually have to demolish to bring up to acceptable spec. Personally I think you'll regret it.

[mjb1]

elanfan said:

Why is the vendor selling? He is unlikely to be able to sell to anyone else as the agents would now be obliged to pass on what they know to a potential purchaser (and I'm sure you'd tell anyone viewing the property too).

You'll get stuck with this in future. Let the vendor sweat and offer £20k below on exchange day! Sounds like you'd virtually have to demolish to bring up to acceptable spec. Personally I think you'll regret it.

Vendor is selling this place along with his own home to pool his resources and buy something bigger/better for himself, hasn't volunteered what exactly, could just be moving to London I guess. He used to live in this place and only rented it out because he couldn't sell it at the time (not because of these issues, but because he was asking well over the odds back then).

It hasn't been advertised with an agent this time, which is part of my issue, it's not been on the open market for 10 years, and no one was aware of the building regs issues until now. Vendor insists it's a non issue due to the age of the works (and I think he genuinely believes that), but they've not tried to sell it under modern estate agents guidelines, and I think they've tightened up over the last 10 years. I've seen a fairly standard agent's questionnaire to sellers - first page: "has the property been extended/altered, does it have planning, does it have building regs approvals, if not why not?" Same questions that are asked by the conveyancers as well.

Vendor advised me weeks ago that they needed completion by end of next Thursday, or it will screw up a chain including 3 other sales (allegedly). My conveyancer only sent me the mortgage deeds for signing yesterday, and then told me it takes a week for the lender to release the funds after they're returned. So can't see how end of next week is possible anyway? If the price got renegotiated, then all the contracts and mortgage offer would need to be revised, which my conveyancer says will add significant delays to proceedings.

I have to say my conveyancer has been utterly crap, it's taken me a week of phoning daily to get any kind of reply out them, most of the delay has been caused by their sheer slowness.

Just to top it all off, I've seen an interesting place going to auction next Thursday (I actually viewed it months ago, but it was too expensive at the time). It could be a total basket case (I know it needs work doing to it, but at least the guide price reflects that) and I don't even know if it's mortgageable, although I'd only need about 40% mortgage. Of course, I've no way of knowing what it'll fetch at auction, could go beyond the guide range. It's be a huge gamble to pull out of current purchase to try and bid on something else, pretty sure I can't string things out for another week though.