Wonky old Georgian townhouse
Discussion
gibbon said:
Harry Flashman said:
I suspect that the kitchen extension is newer and won't be listed?
Thats not how listing works, everything within the curtilage of the building is listed, irrelevant of its age, condition, taste or even if it was appropriately applied for in the first place.Grade II indeed offers some restrictions, but understandably, and many can be worked around but you have to be determined, creative, respectful and very patient.
OP- great project. Good luck.
Harry Flashman said:
Friends have just bought a Grade II listed property in Bucks. And the local heritage person has proved to be really reasonable - frankly, the interior does not concern them too much, although they are not knocking walls through etc. I suspect that the kitchen extension is newer and won't be listed?
I love that floorplan, but then I think that higgledy-piggledy houses give interest, away from the frequent open plan trend we have now. Lots of distinct rooms give a cosy, feel, and allow family members to retreat to distinct spaces for some quiet. Our house is a bit like this, and I avoided knocking through too much or creating a big kitchen extension for this reason.
I’m with you there – the rooms in the main house are all a good size so there’s no need to be knocking anything through. Although we will be removing the wall between the weird 60s separate-toilet-and-bathroom setup!I love that floorplan, but then I think that higgledy-piggledy houses give interest, away from the frequent open plan trend we have now. Lots of distinct rooms give a cosy, feel, and allow family members to retreat to distinct spaces for some quiet. Our house is a bit like this, and I avoided knocking through too much or creating a big kitchen extension for this reason.
Harry Flashman said:
The kitchen extension is odd, but the multiple small rooms at the end could be quite useful:
- get rid of old shed, and have proper garden tool storage in that end room.
- knock through the walls of the "middle two" rooms for a walk-in larder and utility
- That little entrance porch to the kitchen as a mud room, for removing muddy boots etc when coming in from garden
- Kitchen and dining room knocked through, if allowed, for a kitchen/informal diner
There’s some interesting ideas here Harry – it’s really useful to get a different perspective so thank you for that. The shed is currently pretty vital for storage – I had a whole double garage full of tools and general detritus in the old house, and the garage here is being pulled down in a couple of weeks so most of it’s currently in the shed! Ultimately I’d like to keep something here and the frame is pretty sound so it’s not going to fall down imminently, but it’s on the ever-growing list to sort…- get rid of old shed, and have proper garden tool storage in that end room.
- knock through the walls of the "middle two" rooms for a walk-in larder and utility
- That little entrance porch to the kitchen as a mud room, for removing muddy boots etc when coming in from garden
- Kitchen and dining room knocked through, if allowed, for a kitchen/informal diner
Pretty much the whole kitchen extension (basically, everything from the main house back) is pretty terrible quality, so our preferred option is to live with it as is, then pull it down and start again with an open kitchen/diner, plus larder/wash-room at the back. This is obviously budget & planning dependant, so plan B is pretty much what you’ve suggested if it turns out we aren’t allowed/can’t afford a new extension. Whilst I like the separate rooms in the house I’d very much like to have a decent entertaining space here – we had this in the last place and are missing it already, and it’s still separate enough from the rest of the house you’ll be able to shut it off for some privacy etc. Realistically this is a couple of years away at least.
Oh, and we’ve only been in a couple of weeks and I already hate that bloody porch with a passion. I need to flip the outside door round to open outwards
Harry Flashman said:
First floor
- that little front room at the front next to bedroom 2 would make a great master en-suite, but I suspect running soil/clean drainage will be problematic as it will have to come out the back of the house...not easy. But knocked through, also makes a good dressing room, which still leaves you with an issue as to where to have a master bathroom. Staircase gets in the way of making master suite across the back of the house.
Yep, we spent a long time looking at plumbing/drainage and what we could do with an en suite. Truth is I’m a bit of a princess when it comes to ambient/road noise so sleeping at the back of the house is hugely preferable for me – we have looked at making Bed2 an en suite but, as you suspect, the drainage is tricky (expensive!) to say the least. For the time being we’re going to make the existing 1st floor bathroom the ‘nice’ bathroom and just go for a bedroom/dressing room combo. Neither of us are particularly wedded to having an en suite, but this may change in future. We’re in the final stages of sorting a complete re-plumbing job to start in a couple of months so I’m looking at this in a lot of detail at the moment!- that little front room at the front next to bedroom 2 would make a great master en-suite, but I suspect running soil/clean drainage will be problematic as it will have to come out the back of the house...not easy. But knocked through, also makes a good dressing room, which still leaves you with an issue as to where to have a master bathroom. Staircase gets in the way of making master suite across the back of the house.
The little front room next to bedroom 2 is going to disappear altogether – originally the landing went straight back to the window and the previous owners have added it in as a sort of big cupboard. We’re going to open it back up which will make that landing much more open, light and (eventually) we’ll restore the wooden floors as well. Should look lovely when it’s done.
outnumbered said:
Looks great - no doubt there will be some interesting discoveries, but that's a lovely house. I guessed the town correctly too (the church spire is a small giveaway).
Presumably the bay windows at the back and the extended bit at the front aren't original ?
Thanks for the kind words. No, the bays are 20th century additions so I don’t see too much of an issue replacing them. Current plan is to replace with 3-bay sash windows, but we’ll discuss with the planning officer and see what they say. The front extension is Victorian, and gives the room a decent amount of extra space. It looks a bit awkward, but I rather like it Presumably the bay windows at the back and the extended bit at the front aren't original ?
CharlesdeGaulle said:
That's a very attractive house. I'm looking forward to this.
jonnydm said:
Fantastic! Lovely house, looking forward to this.
Thank you both. I hope you have some patience gibbon said:
Thats not how listing works, everything within the curtilage of the building is listed, irrelevant of its age, condition, taste or even if it was appropriately applied for in the first place.
Grade II indeed offers some restrictions, but understandably, and many can be worked around but you have to be determined, creative, respectful and very patient.
OP- great project. Good luck.
Indeed – this is our second Grade 2 listed house so we have a bit of experience at least. We’ve got a meeting with the local planning officer next week which should give us a better idea of what we can and can’t do. Hopefully the fact that we’ll be mid-way through restoring the lovely old sash windows (crinkly old glass and all) will paint us in a good light Grade II indeed offers some restrictions, but understandably, and many can be worked around but you have to be determined, creative, respectful and very patient.
OP- great project. Good luck.
Edited by seiben on Thursday 13th June 16:39
When I saw the photos I thought " that's the house we were going to buy", then I saw the garden and realised it wasn't.
Pretty much identical internally though. Sadly my wife got cold feet and we didn't buy it, much to my regret. Although at least we ended up in a nice cottage (with almost as much work to do)
Look forward to seeing the updates
Pretty much identical internally though. Sadly my wife got cold feet and we didn't buy it, much to my regret. Although at least we ended up in a nice cottage (with almost as much work to do)
Look forward to seeing the updates
tokyo_mb said:
Assume you may already know about the http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/index.php - but if not it is a mine of useful information and people who will encourage you when the going gets tough.
I didn't! Thanks for the link, that looks very useful.dhutch said:
Love it, why the hell not!
I saw a load of the Taylor's fireplaces in 'Blackwell House' a big arts and craft style house on the side of Windermere. Well worth viewing the place if you are up that way ever, a gold mine of interest and inspiration for us and our Edwardian project.
Daniel
Now that's interesting - I did have a search around and couldn't find anything out about the fireplace to date it etc. Blackwell house c.1900 so perhaps it was put in here during the extension work of that room, which happened in the late 1800s...I saw a load of the Taylor's fireplaces in 'Blackwell House' a big arts and craft style house on the side of Windermere. Well worth viewing the place if you are up that way ever, a gold mine of interest and inspiration for us and our Edwardian project.
Daniel
seiben said:
Now that's interesting - I did have a search around and couldn't find anything out about the fireplace to date it etc. Blackwell house c.1900 so perhaps it was put in here during the extension work of that room, which happened in the late 1800s...
Yeah, I thought I had taken photos at the time but I only got the one below of a nice fireplace that's clearly lost its harth. Most of the fireplaces are of said design, bar the large ground floor rooms, each with various bits missing but between the lot there is a full set.The bottom of the fireplace slopped downward below the harth where you can see yours has been filled in with cement, allowing the grate to be flat with the harth, fixed for about 2/3 but the front 1/3 folding up to allow the ashpan to slide out. Some then had lift our casting with a few bars to hold the first back, slotted into metal brackets secured on either side.
Fire places where consumable items and would typically be replaced multiple times in the life of a house as they became worn out or fashions change. The surround and hearth are 'slabbed up' off side and just bedded down on weak cement with a screw plate at the top corners of the surround, the fire back being a clay unit again just bedded on weak cement with a load of sand behind.
They obviously liked low/flat grates back then because we have Baxi Burnalls in our house (circa 1902) which is another flush-grate system with a huge ashbox under a lift out grate. If it was an external wall you could have an access hatch to empty from outside but I expect most are like ours (internal wall so not an option anyway) didnt have this feature. Instead you have to lift the whole fire out every 3-5days and end up with a right mess if you try and have one more fire and run out of room for the ash and put the fire out as you cant empty it with a fire in.
Daniel
Lovely looking house and good luck with the refurb. So Jealous!
In terms of plumbing, there is of course the option of a Saniflo type device (shudder) - or what we did with a previous house was run the soil pipe down into the room below and along the wall below the ceiling to the outside. We then put floor to ceiling fitted cupboards in the room below and this hid the soil pipe completely above them (plus the units in the room looked really nice). Could also have put a false wall in to hide the pipework but that would then have lost 8" or so of the room width (ultimately less loss than the cupboards were, but the cupboards were a nice feature).
In terms of plumbing, there is of course the option of a Saniflo type device (shudder) - or what we did with a previous house was run the soil pipe down into the room below and along the wall below the ceiling to the outside. We then put floor to ceiling fitted cupboards in the room below and this hid the soil pipe completely above them (plus the units in the room looked really nice). Could also have put a false wall in to hide the pipework but that would then have lost 8" or so of the room width (ultimately less loss than the cupboards were, but the cupboards were a nice feature).
seiben said:
Next job is to work out how to get a quarter-inch of paint off them without ruining them 
I'd look at caustic dipping. We had all the internal doors (10 I think) done over the course of about a year, including some that looked like they'd been printed every 6 weeks for the last near-century, and they came out fantastically. On the subject of listed properties, having worked for the best part of two years for an architectural firm that specialised in listed building renovation and extension, I don't think I'd be overly concerned about the status. Yes everything tends to be a bit slower, and yes you are largely at the whims of your local planning department, but you'd be amazed at some of the stuff those we worked with would happily sign off on.
Edited by HM-2 on Thursday 13th June 20:58
HM-2 said:
seiben said:
Next job is to work out how to get a quarter-inch of paint off them without ruining them
I'd look at caustic dipping. We had all the internal doors (10 I think) done over the course of about a year, including some that looked like they'd been printed every 6 weeks for the last near-century, and they came out fantastically. On the subject of listed properties, having worked for the best part of two years for an architectural firm that specialised in listed building renovation and extension, I don't think I'd be overly concerned about the status. Yes everything tends to be a bit slower, and yes you are largely at the whims of your local planning department, but you'd be amazed at some of the stuff those we worked with would happily sign off on.
Edited by HM-2 on Thursday 13th June 20:58
following with interest (& on insta)
I can't work out the stair arrangement on the 1st floor from the floorplan as up & down appear to be on top of each other but is there no chance of adding a small corridoor over the stairs along the back wall to make the bathroom on that floor an ensuite? (once fittings have been moved around a little)
I can't work out the stair arrangement on the 1st floor from the floorplan as up & down appear to be on top of each other but is there no chance of adding a small corridoor over the stairs along the back wall to make the bathroom on that floor an ensuite? (once fittings have been moved around a little)
seiben said:
Ace-T said:
Bookmarked. That place looks fantastic and looks like an epic job. Makes our CardboardBarrett-to-Edwardian-doer-upper look easy-peasy
Thanks. I've spotted your thread actually - looks really good and I can certainly see us taking some inspiration from it The best bit of advice we were given on ours was to live in it for a while first. Obviously there are certain things that you do immediately to make sure the house is safe but, decor wise, we found that revealing the fireplaces or removing items that draw your eye too much helps you see the house's 'bones' better. One of ours was rip the random strips of wallpaper the previous owner stuck all over the hall as a 'designery' feature
There are a few of us on PH who use and contribute to an interior design site forum called https://www.houzz.co.uk/. The folks on there have been really helpful to us and there are tons of photos and ideas from which to gain inspiration.
seiben said:
The living room is in pretty good nick overall, and is a lovely big, light room. It'll be staying as is for the short-medium term. The family room will become a library (that's where the lovely tiled fireplace is). If you're thinking it's a bit of a walk from the kitchen to the rest of the house, you'd be right. We've come from a much smaller 3-bed - it's taking a bit of getting used to the fact that we can't hear each other around the house as much as we used to.
I know what you mean about the kitchen! We even considered walkie-talkies 
Your red fireplace looks lovely and with those tiles I think it is a definite late Victorian/Edwardian addition. The colour is very similar to the tiled fireplace in our front room, I will post a pic if you want? Also, if you won't be using the chimney yet I recommend these guys product for stopping drafts. https://www.chimneysheep.co.uk/ Our study's ambient temperature went up about 5 degrees when I stuck one of those up the chimney!
Another good source of useful info is the Haynes Manual series. We have the Victorian/Edwardian one and there is this one which covers all sorts https://www.amazon.co.uk/Period-Property-Manual-Ne... At the very least they are a really interesting read
I am also weirdly pleased there is someone else considering creating a library in their house, I thought we were the only strange people to want that.
Looking forward to reading more about your progress.Yeah, lovely tiles and fit with ours as Edwardian. We have lovely green ones in one room but sadly the other room has very dull red ones which have then been badly painted. They will do for now but depending how they clean up may be replaced. You can also see the flush grate and in second room, hearth.
Second the chimney sheep suggestion, we have a pair of them, various sizes else they also do custom sizes to the same price. I will do a min thread one day before t for now life and the day job get in the way plenty!
Daniel
Second the chimney sheep suggestion, we have a pair of them, various sizes else they also do custom sizes to the same price. I will do a min thread one day before t for now life and the day job get in the way plenty!
Daniel
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff