Energy price rises - what are you paying?
Discussion
bigtime said:
I am waiting till everyone gets electric cars and charges them over night. Then when I do all my washing etc it'll be during the day which will then be off peak 
I was talking to my brother in law in South West France . This is exactly what has happened. The off peak he has is 11am to 16.30 Mr Whippy said:
Or get a Tesla Powerwall or equiv, and just charge battery with solar and cheapest rate leccy?!
I’m going battery in the next house.
I just can't get my head around the costs on all of this.. seems like it is anything up to 10-12k up front, and unless you have a huge roof of solar panels it does not make a huge amount of difference. Am using 27kwh electricity a day.I’m going battery in the next house.
BobSaunders said:
Mr Whippy said:
Or get a Tesla Powerwall or equiv, and just charge battery with solar and cheapest rate leccy?!
I’m going battery in the next house.
I just can't get my head around the costs on all of this.. seems like it is anything up to 10-12k up front, and unless you have a huge roof of solar panels it does not make a huge amount of difference. Am using 27kwh electricity a day.I’m going battery in the next house.
There are an awful lot of suckers who have recently bought solar and batteries from the modern equivalent of sharp suited double glazing salesmen promising them vast savings on energy bills, and who have done no calculations themselves.
PF62 said:
Having a huge roof of solar panels just makes the maths worse if you have a battery.
There are an awful lot of suckers who have recently bought solar and batteries from the modern equivalent of sharp suited double glazing salesmen promising them vast savings on energy bills, and who have done no calculations themselves.
There are also some who do work it out to suit their circumstances and get payback in about 5 years. There are an awful lot of suckers who have recently bought solar and batteries from the modern equivalent of sharp suited double glazing salesmen promising them vast savings on energy bills, and who have done no calculations themselves.
Almost no energy bills for us next full year as we'll export enough to cover a chunk of our gas as well. This winter the electricity will be covered due to export credit, plus any small amount of generation on the odd sunny day. Of course it helps that our son in law installed ours at trade prices, plus we don't squander 30kWh a day, more like about 7kWh on average.PF62 said:
However when asked they never seem to be able to provide the calculations to show that.
Here you go...knock yourself out:Installation cost £7,500 (trade price as per above).
Production based on PVGIS figures for our location, azimuth and system size is 5,600kWh per year, though in practice we seem to be exceeding this by about 8-10% at least so far (installation in May this year). Quite possible we will exceed 6,000kWh generation a year, but figures based on the PVGIS estimate at the time we were considering the installation.
Our annual electricity use is 2200kWh which at the time of our installation was on the Octopus Flexible tariff of 34p/kWh and 48p standing charge, totalling £748 units plus £175 standing charge annually.
Export (Flux rates at the time of installation) 3400kWh (5,600kWh generation minus 2,200kWh use) at 23p/kWh would give £782 export credit. Though a percentage of this will fall during the peak export period during summer, which was 34p/kWh at the time, so quite possibly closer to £850 credit per year, though to keep figures simple I've just based it on the standard day export rate. This extra will probably cover most of our standing charge costs, though again, not included in the ROI calculations for simplicity.
Solar saves us the £748 use and adds £782 export credit totalling £1,530 per year.
£7,500 installation cost divided by £1,530 saving per year is approximately 5 years. Add another year for interest on the capital if we'd chosen to put it into a 5 year bond at the time of installation (4.5% typically was available at that time).
£7,500 at 4.5% over 5 years less 20% tax would equate to £270 per year lost interest, total (non compounded as assuming it would be used towards the annual energy bill in lieu of solar installation) £1,350
Granted the unit costs have changed since we installed, so payback is now looking more like 6 years (plus 1 year interest). Equally unit prices may well increase in the next five years, but we could only calculate on the figures in front of us at the time. Expected lifetime of the system should be well over that ROI period, first item likely to be the inverter perhaps at 10 years, but battery should last longer, if not at 100% capacity it won't suddenly stop working at 10 years, panels expected to last much longer, possibly 25-30 years.
For us, not having to worry about energy bills and having that extra spending money for other things now we're retired was a factor too. I believe the maths works for us (admittedly due to the trade price installation) and we're not paying Tax on interest used to pay towards our bill like if we'd put the capital in a bond (since our ISAs were max'd out anyway).
Hope that's useful.
PF62 said:
£7,500 for a solar and battery system - well anyone can get a five year payback on a far below retail price system!
I was just proving that we're not all the mugs you seem to take us for and being sold a dream by a shiny suited salesman, plus providing the calculations that I made before committing, even at the reduced price to make sure it made financial sense. Just extrapolate the figures for say £10-11k retail if you want to, which would probably work out more like 10-11 years ROI. Probably still worth it given we don't know how much unit prices might have gone up to by then. Think of it a bit like fixing a mortgage I guess, not that I have one now, but I understand the idea of known outgoings verses potential big rises I have no control over.
OldSkoolRS said:
PF62 said:
£7,500 for a solar and battery system - well anyone can get a five year payback on a far below retail price system!
I was just proving that we're not all the mugs you seem to take us for and being sold a dream by a shiny suited salesman, plus providing the calculations that I made before committing, even at the reduced price to make sure it made financial sense. Your example is the same as someone being offered a car for 1/3rd of retail price as proof that car is cost effective to buy and run.
OldSkoolRS said:
Just extrapolate the figures for say £10-11k retail if you want to, which would probably work out more like 10-11 years ROI. Probably still worth it given we don't know how much unit prices might have gone up to by then. Think of it a bit like fixing a mortgage I guess, not that I have one now, but I understand the idea of known outgoings verses potential big rises I have no control over.
Can you really buy the same solar and battery system at a commercial price for £10 to £11k - I rather doubt it - and of course it is really really hard to find out prices as the vendors have moved into shiny suited salesman territory where almost no website will give any indication of prices, but an 'enter your details here and someone will contact you', no doubt for a hard sell about how you can save money and the payback period is short.And now once you are getting into over a decade for repayment then you are getting in huge uncertainties around energy prices, whether you will still be living there, etc.
James6112 said:
Would Battery only be a good bet?
EDF (and others) 8p kwh for 5 hours overnight
Pump in all you can at that rate
Should cover the day
Depends how cheap the battery is.EDF (and others) 8p kwh for 5 hours overnight
Pump in all you can at that rate
Should cover the day
I use around 6kWh a day during the peak rate, so to repay a 6kWh battery in five years using the difference between a peak and off-peak rate at current prices and interest rates would mean it would need to cost £2,200 installed.
And such batteries don't cost £2,200 installed (for most people).
Even at a ten year payback it would need to cost £3,800, and I still strongly doubt you could get one installed for that price - and that also assumes the difference between peak and off-peak remains the same for the next decade.
PF62 said:
James6112 said:
Would Battery only be a good bet?
EDF (and others) 8p kwh for 5 hours overnight
Pump in all you can at that rate
Should cover the day
Depends how cheap the battery is.EDF (and others) 8p kwh for 5 hours overnight
Pump in all you can at that rate
Should cover the day
I use around 6kWh a day during the peak rate, so to repay a 6kWh battery in five years using the difference between a peak and off-peak rate at current prices and interest rates would mean it would need to cost £2,200 installed.
And such batteries don't cost £2,200 installed (for most people).
Even at a ten year payback it would need to cost £3,800, and I still strongly doubt you could get one installed for that price - and that also assumes the difference between peak and off-peak remains the same for the next decade.
If like me you're working from home full time and live in an area of near constant building development, there is a justification if you can configure this to be a UPS solution too. Handy if there's a power outage as you can keep the boiler running. Very much in the realms of man math.
Often overlooked are the losses involved in charging the battery from AC, then converting that DC back into AC to use in the house, so it isn't 100% efficient either. While over a period of time you might put 100kWh into the battery, in practice you might only get perhaps 90kWh back into your house (not sure on the exact efficiency but you certainly won't get 100kWh back into the house).
You could maybe save more using a tracker tariff, though that holds the risk of it going up to a much higher amount than standard variable rates, so do your own due diligence on that.
You could maybe save more using a tracker tariff, though that holds the risk of it going up to a much higher amount than standard variable rates, so do your own due diligence on that.
Just as you have finally recovered all that additional cost of the battery after 10 years the thing will no doubt be shot and have to be replaced! so off you go again!
I looked into it all for a new build a few years back, a guy in central Aus had gone the Tesla battery route etc, even he could not make it pay with unlimited sunshine 365 days a year.
I looked into it all for a new build a few years back, a guy in central Aus had gone the Tesla battery route etc, even he could not make it pay with unlimited sunshine 365 days a year.
PAUL.S. said:
Just as you have finally recovered all that additional cost of the battery after 10 years the thing will no doubt be shot and have to be replaced! so off you go again!
I looked into it all for a new build a few years back, a guy in central Aus had gone the Tesla battery route etc, even he could not make it pay with unlimited sunshine 365 days a year.
I think that even if it's functional, it's likely to have been superseded technologically. For example I'm looking to replace my 12 year old panels, not because their performance has dropped significantly, but because I want to improve the output from my 'best' section of roof. Likewise with batteries I expect capacity to increase and price to decrease. I looked into it all for a new build a few years back, a guy in central Aus had gone the Tesla battery route etc, even he could not make it pay with unlimited sunshine 365 days a year.
PF62 said:
Can you really buy the same solar and battery system at a commercial price for £10 to £11k - I rather doubt it - and of course it is really really hard to find out prices as the vendors have moved into shiny suited salesman territory where almost no website will give any indication of prices, but an 'enter your details here and someone will contact you', no doubt for a hard sell about how you can save money and the payback period is short.
And now once you are getting into over a decade for repayment then you are getting in huge uncertainties around energy prices, whether you will still be living there, etc.
One last try; you made a pointed remark as if we're all a bit too thick to work things out before buying and I proved that wrong. I've seen plenty of owners put their calculations up, perhaps not on PH, but certainly elsewhere on solar forums/FB pages. Some with EVs or higher use make bigger savings per year than me due to saving on running costs of their cars too. It's not for me to post their calcs, but I put the effort in to show mine and as said you can extrapolate to retail price and shop around to avoid the salesman type firms as there are plenty of others around.And now once you are getting into over a decade for repayment then you are getting in huge uncertainties around energy prices, whether you will still be living there, etc.
I've seen other people buy a similar system to mine for £10-11k since ours was installed, so it's not 1/3 of retail at all. I know they make a good profit, but 200% is definitely the realm of the cowboys and not the decent installers.
We have zero plans to move having got the house exactly how we want it, paid the mortgage off and now retired (mid 50s, so not due in a home just yet
), so even if we did hit 10 years ROI it wouldn't matter. I do agree that buying solar then moving after a few years is a waste and I don't agree with the idea it puts value on the house sale like some solar zealots would like to have you believe.I also agree that everyone should do their working out to check if it's financially worthwhile, but to imply we're all a bit thick and sold to by salesman is a bit disingenuous. For some it will work out a shorter ROI like me, others more like 10 years plus. Some might exceed the lifetime of certain parts before getting an ROI, so they have to work out each case accordingly. We still don't know what we'll be paying for electricity in 5-10 years time, so I'm taking the chance it'll be more than now and effectively 'fixing' my costs. I could be wrong, but I think it's unlikely to go down.
I don't think buying a battery (plus inverter) system alone is worthwhile, especially as you are then at the mercy of tariffs changing for the cheap rate period. Plus, as I mentioned above the often overlooked point that charging and discharging isn't 100% efficient so it isn't 1 unit in for 1 unit back out.
A retail system would have still worked out for us (since again I did the calculations at the time). We were lucky that my son in law needed an installation for MCS to inspect so he could get his MCS certification, so we got a trade price installation and had it inspected by MCS (unlike most installations).
I'm not pushing solar for everyone and highly recommend realistic calculations should be done before purchase, not relying on what the salesman tell you. Join solar FB groups/forums for further information and to help avoid the bad ones. I had a few arguments on such pages when I mentioned loss of interest on the capital as some clearly hadn't included that in their figures and tried to gloss over it, just as rates were rising to the stage when the interest could be used annually to pay a chunk off the bill. I included that as I'd set up various savings around that time due to an inheritance, so it was an option just to bank the money.
It can work for UK owners as I've seen elsewhere, though if throwing money at Tesla then even in Aus maybe it doesn't work out as well. Use sites such as PVGIS to input your location, azimuth and system size for predicted output each month of the year: I know we'll be under generating in December and January, just about break even in November and February based on the average due to the size of the system, but combined with the fact we aren't squandering electricity now just because 'it is free' like some seem to do. Due to credit exporting with Flux that is already covered this winter, though probably not the standing charges as it should be in the next full year of export.
Our current DD is a token £66 a month just to let some extra credit build up to cover our gas, in answer to the original question on this thread.
OldSkoolRS said:
One last try; you made a pointed remark as if we're all a bit too thick to work things out before buying and I proved that wrong. I've seen plenty of owners put their calculations up, perhaps not on PH, but certainly elsewhere on solar forums/FB pages. Some with EVs or higher use make bigger savings per year than me due to saving on running costs of their cars too. It's not for me to post their calcs, but I put the effort in to show mine and as said you can extrapolate to retail price and shop around to avoid the salesman type firms as there are plenty of others around.
All that effort you put into your post was pointless - of course a below normal price system is going to have a short payback period!And from what I have seen the same is true of all the other people who post on solar forums/FB pages - once you scratch the surface then either they have a below cost system, they don't take account of all the costs, or they are people who installed years ago and are benefitting from the legacy payments.
Then those who do eventually grudgingly admit that the payback period isn't short and don't flounce off in a huff, then resort to the defensive 'I didn't buy it because it was cheap but it was green / energy security / potential energy price increase / adds to house value / not moving, etc'.
OldSkoolRS said:
I've seen other people buy a similar system to mine for £10-11k since ours was installed, so it's not 1/3 of retail at all.
Great - who are these installers? There is no prohibition here on naming good companies.OldSkoolRS said:
I also agree that everyone should do their working out to check if it's financially worthwhile, but to imply we're all a bit thick and sold to by salesman is a bit disingenuous. For some it will work out a shorter ROI like me
You who was buying a system far below normal price so it was obvious that the calculations would work, and it is rather disingenuous to include yourself with the rest of those installing solar and batteries at full price.I am still yet to see a fully worked set of calculations taking in all costs that gives a reasonable payback period from someone who bought a normal retail price system.
At present we’re paying £92 per month with Octopus which has just about kept pace with what we’ve been using all summer.
We’ve got a few quid in credit but were just discussing putting it up to cover for the winter months.
Then today we got an email offering us a 12 month contract for £92.76 which we consider well worth signing up for.
Drawweight said:
At present we’re paying £92 per month with Octopus which has just about kept pace with what we’ve been using all summer.
We’ve got a few quid in credit but were just discussing putting it up to cover for the winter months.
Then today we got an email offering us a 12 month contract for £92.76 which we consider well worth signing up for.
That's regardless of the amount of energy you use then ? You can just leave everything on for a year and that's the monthly cost ?We’ve got a few quid in credit but were just discussing putting it up to cover for the winter months.
Then today we got an email offering us a 12 month contract for £92.76 which we consider well worth signing up for.
I think not but don't understand what the 12 month contract means .
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