Discussion
rdj001 said:
Just had a survey for solar on our bungalow. Awaiting the emailed quote with detail but suggestion was:
- 26 panels (Longi 425w)
- Fox inverter
- Tesla Powerwall2 (+ gateway)
- Pidgeon guard
- Scaffolding
- Installation
All for the princely sum of £18.5k
Their illustration showed a 7 year payback period based on our current leccy bill.
Would be interested in any views from peeps that have similar set-up (capacity wise).
What is your annual electricity consumption in kWh?- 26 panels (Longi 425w)
- Fox inverter
- Tesla Powerwall2 (+ gateway)
- Pidgeon guard
- Scaffolding
- Installation
All for the princely sum of £18.5k
Their illustration showed a 7 year payback period based on our current leccy bill.
Would be interested in any views from peeps that have similar set-up (capacity wise).
7 year payback of £18.5K is ~£2650/year.
sma said:
Quoted 21k
20 x Longi 430w
Solaredge 8kwh Inv
Solaredge optimisers
Tesla Gateway
2 x Tesla PW2
Bird protection
Installed. Inc all scaffolding, certs, DNO paperwork etc
Seem ok? 8yr payback. Use about 850 to 1000kwh per month
What's the reason for the near constant electricity consumption month in month? Is it mostly EVs? If so, what's your best night rate as that's the base figure to use for payback, plus it needs to account for the OC on the 21k which risk free is about 4.3% tax free. 20 x Longi 430w
Solaredge 8kwh Inv
Solaredge optimisers
Tesla Gateway
2 x Tesla PW2
Bird protection
Installed. Inc all scaffolding, certs, DNO paperwork etc
Seem ok? 8yr payback. Use about 850 to 1000kwh per month
clio007 said:
I'm buying a property that has "4k" solar panels installed in 2013.
There are 6 panels.
Will it actually save me any money?
Ask the seller for details?There are 6 panels.
Will it actually save me any money?
First Q is who owns the panels. If it's a rent-a-roof setup, then run away.
If they're owned by the seller, then it should be on the FIT (feed-in-tariff) scheme which I think can be transferred to you.
DonkeyApple said:
What's the reason for the near constant electricity consumption month in month? Is it mostly EVs? If so, what's your best night rate as that's the base figure to use for payback, plus it needs to account for the OC on the 21k which risk free is about 4.3% tax free.
Unfortunately most of the quotes we see on here need 50% to 100% added to the payback periods to be realistic.MaxFromage said:
Unfortunately most of the quotes we see on here need 50% to 100% added to the payback periods to be realistic.
The bulk of the industry is completely fraudulent. They sell as an investment but if they were FCA reg they'd not be able to make the silly claims that they do. But the dichotomy of the legitimate vendors is that if they don't play the game they won't get any sales. Many of these transactions will never have a true payback. That's absolutely fine if the buyers knows but many won't. That is, of course, their look out but it's a shame nonetheless.
Unless you're able to consume at the point of generation which means daytime in summer, so to heat a pool or run an aircon system it's very unlikely that a properly calculated investment scenario is plausible.
It ought to at least be regulated by the industry that the payback calc just uses the purchasing tarif of the utility companies, that would be a vaguely legitimate calculation. And only viable if the capex isn't being financed.
DonkeyApple said:
MaxFromage said:
Unfortunately most of the quotes we see on here need 50% to 100% added to the payback periods to be realistic.
The bulk of the industry is completely fraudulent. They sell as an investment but if they were FCA reg they'd not be able to make the silly claims that they do. But the dichotomy of the legitimate vendors is that if they don't play the game they won't get any sales. Many of these transactions will never have a true payback. That's absolutely fine if the buyers knows but many won't. That is, of course, their look out but it's a shame nonetheless.
Unless you're able to consume at the point of generation which means daytime in summer, so to heat a pool or run an aircon system it's very unlikely that a properly calculated investment scenario is plausible.
It ought to at least be regulated by the industry that the payback calc just uses the purchasing tarif of the utility companies, that would be a vaguely legitimate calculation. And only viable if the capex isn't being financed.
Solar + battery combinations would be the best option if electricity was only available at the capped rate. However, there are deals such as Octopus Tracker which make solar + battery combinations payback periods well over 15 years.
I have solar + battery and, based on the capped rate would pay-back in around 8-10 years, but Octopus Tracker means that it may not pay-back for 15-20 years.
Yes, my DD is £70 instead of £180, but I've paid £13k for the privelege.
DonkeyApple said:
Unless you're able to consume at the point of generation which means daytime in summer, so to heat a pool or run an aircon system it's very unlikely that a properly calculated investment scenario is plausible.
Yes our 2 year old commercial setup was less than the latest quotes above, and more than twice the size. As you can imagine, we use most of the electricity bar the summer weekends. With OC as you note, ours is now pushed out to a 6 year repayment period. I'd say it works like this as the moment:
- Residential- Not much economic point unless you have a cannabis farm, electric vehicles or other high-use case
- Office- High use due to computers/servers- crack on, a pretty good rate of return
- Industrial- do it, sub 3 year payback for many.
MaxFromage said:
Yes our 2 year old commercial setup was less than the latest quotes above, and more than twice the size. As you can imagine, we use most of the electricity bar the summer weekends. With OC as you note, ours is now pushed out to a 6 year repayment period.
I'd say it works like this as the moment:
- Residential- Not much economic point unless you have a cannabis farm, electric vehicles or other high-use case
- Office- High use due to computers/servers- crack on, a pretty good rate of return
- Industrial- do it, sub 3 year payback for many.
Even with EVs on the drive, as most will be there when the cheapest grid electricity can be purchased the payback calc needs to run on the cheapest tariff level rather than peak. I'd say it works like this as the moment:
- Residential- Not much economic point unless you have a cannabis farm, electric vehicles or other high-use case
- Office- High use due to computers/servers- crack on, a pretty good rate of return
- Industrial- do it, sub 3 year payback for many.
For domestic the issue will always be heating. We generally need heating when there is no sun, winter mornings and evenings. It's just the reality of where the U.K. sits on the planet.
What I would find of interest is how to beat used grid cheap rates and home storage to enable a solution to that hurdle. How close are battery or thermal store economics to it being feasible to buy for the day ahead during the short off peak windows. And more importantly, will a utility allow that transaction as it means they lose the peak revenues from that customer (are these utilities still insisting that one has an EV before they'll sell to you etc)
If you are going to install a solar array how do the sums work for having none of the additional hardware but just selling everything generated to the utility and creating a a credit balance to be consumed during winter.
The fundamental concern is that if this were economically plausible then the utilities would be bringing their enormous buying power to bear and taking the savings for themselves, logically.
The real savings for domestic arrive if you can drop one of the two energy utilities, which would logically be gas, and store enough electricity per day to heat the property the next day. To get close would mean slamming capex to the floor, zero financing cost, dropping maintenance costs and minimising end of life disposal costs all while creating a system with the greatest longevity.
This is why I'm still thinking thermal batteries may be superior to chemical and that a simple system that just buys from the grid at the lowest rates and eliminates the gas boilers, it's servicing costs and having a gas contract with its daily standing charge may be the most efficient solution.
Getting rid of solar panels and chemical batteries at end of life is a potential big cost that gets conveniently omitted. Maintaining all this equipment, replacing inverters and still having a gas boiler and supply contract just blows devastating holes in payback calcs that already use the wrong electricity price to start with.
Simply filling a thermal battery and heating a hot water tank on cheap rate, looks on paper, to be the far superior tactic. The issue at present is that the few thermal battery companies are deluded fools who spend more time whinging than getting their act together and selling bit hopefully that will start to change as they begin to feel the squeeze from the end of free money funding and the sudden need to grow up.
I keep revisiting solar as every year the product gets better. They become more efficient in their generation, more efficient in their longevity and more efficient in their pricing. But it's still the case that £10k in utility company stocks (or just into gilts and having no capital at risk) is by far the more superior use of £10k than putting it on the roof to try and limit utility company bills.
This doesn't mean that people are daft for having solar just that some people who have solar are daft.
dmsims said:
Have you done an energy audit ?
I think the energy retail market will look a lot different before that 8 yers is up.sma said:
Quoted 21k
20 x Longi 430w
Solaredge 8kwh Inv
Solaredge optimisers
Tesla Gateway
2 x Tesla PW2
Bird protection
Installed. Inc all scaffolding, certs, DNO paperwork etc
Seem ok? 8yr payback. Use about 850 to 1000kwh per month
20 x Longi 430w
Solaredge 8kwh Inv
Solaredge optimisers
Tesla Gateway
2 x Tesla PW2
Bird protection
Installed. Inc all scaffolding, certs, DNO paperwork etc
Seem ok? 8yr payback. Use about 850 to 1000kwh per month
romft123 said:
Jeez, some of you lot out there scare me. Our total consumption was 2750 Kwh per year. With solar its now down to less than a thousand and we pay £35 a month for electricity now
To be fair, my electricity is probably £ZERO, but my DD includes gas. I don't actually know what my DD for electricity alone would be.silentbrown said:
clio007 said:
I'm buying a property that has "4k" solar panels installed in 2013.
There are 6 panels.
Will it actually save me any money?
Ask the seller for details?There are 6 panels.
Will it actually save me any money?
First Q is who owns the panels. If it's a rent-a-roof setup, then run away.
If they're owned by the seller, then it should be on the FIT (feed-in-tariff) scheme which I think can be transferred to you.
It mentions estimated annual generation KW of 2921 on the installation cert. Is that usually accurate?
clio007 said:
silentbrown said:
clio007 said:
I'm buying a property that has "4k" solar panels installed in 2013.
There are 6 panels.
Will it actually save me any money?
Ask the seller for details?There are 6 panels.
Will it actually save me any money?
First Q is who owns the panels. If it's a rent-a-roof setup, then run away.
If they're owned by the seller, then it should be on the FIT (feed-in-tariff) scheme which I think can be transferred to you.
It mentions estimated annual generation KW of 2921 on the installation cert. Is that usually accurate?
DonkeyApple said:
MaxFromage said:
Yes our 2 year old commercial setup was less than the latest quotes above, and more than twice the size. As you can imagine, we use most of the electricity bar the summer weekends. With OC as you note, ours is now pushed out to a 6 year repayment period.
I'd say it works like this as the moment:
- Residential- Not much economic point unless you have a cannabis farm, electric vehicles or other high-use case
- Office- High use due to computers/servers- crack on, a pretty good rate of return
- Industrial- do it, sub 3 year payback for many.
Even with EVs on the drive, as most will be there when the cheapest grid electricity can be purchased the payback calc needs to run on the cheapest tariff level rather than peak. I'd say it works like this as the moment:
- Residential- Not much economic point unless you have a cannabis farm, electric vehicles or other high-use case
- Office- High use due to computers/servers- crack on, a pretty good rate of return
- Industrial- do it, sub 3 year payback for many.
For domestic the issue will always be heating. We generally need heating when there is no sun, winter mornings and evenings. It's just the reality of where the U.K. sits on the planet.
What I would find of interest is how to beat used grid cheap rates and home storage to enable a solution to that hurdle. How close are battery or thermal store economics to it being feasible to buy for the day ahead during the short off peak windows. And more importantly, will a utility allow that transaction as it means they lose the peak revenues from that customer (are these utilities still insisting that one has an EV before they'll sell to you etc)
If you are going to install a solar array how do the sums work for having none of the additional hardware but just selling everything generated to the utility and creating a a credit balance to be consumed during winter.
The fundamental concern is that if this were economically plausible then the utilities would be bringing their enormous buying power to bear and taking the savings for themselves, logically.
The real savings for domestic arrive if you can drop one of the two energy utilities, which would logically be gas, and store enough electricity per day to heat the property the next day. To get close would mean slamming capex to the floor, zero financing cost, dropping maintenance costs and minimising end of life disposal costs all while creating a system with the greatest longevity.
This is why I'm still thinking thermal batteries may be superior to chemical and that a simple system that just buys from the grid at the lowest rates and eliminates the gas boilers, it's servicing costs and having a gas contract with its daily standing charge may be the most efficient solution.
Getting rid of solar panels and chemical batteries at end of life is a potential big cost that gets conveniently omitted. Maintaining all this equipment, replacing inverters and still having a gas boiler and supply contract just blows devastating holes in payback calcs that already use the wrong electricity price to start with.
Simply filling a thermal battery and heating a hot water tank on cheap rate, looks on paper, to be the far superior tactic. The issue at present is that the few thermal battery companies are deluded fools who spend more time whinging than getting their act together and selling bit hopefully that will start to change as they begin to feel the squeeze from the end of free money funding and the sudden need to grow up.
I keep revisiting solar as every year the product gets better. They become more efficient in their generation, more efficient in their longevity and more efficient in their pricing. But it's still the case that £10k in utility company stocks (or just into gilts and having no capital at risk) is by far the more superior use of £10k than putting it on the roof to try and limit utility company bills.
This doesn't mean that people are daft for having solar just that some people who have solar are daft.
The install company will match the export credits for 12 months and here in NI it's 14.2p so I'll be getting 28.4p for 12 months. No point in getting batteries with that incentive.
They quoted me 4675 estimated annual generation. When I checked myself, that's spot on. Data is from a weather station just 3 or 4 miles away so pretty accurate.
My install was 5.8k array at £5.3k cost
If I exported everything, I'm getting £1.3k in year 1 and £663 year 2 and beyond
Of course I'll be using some of it but I should get £1.4k saving in year 1 and £0.9k PA after.
I'll use about 35% of it so my maths are:
4675 x 0.35 x 0.30p is £491 saved on not using grid electric
4675 x 0.65 x 14.2p is £432 credit for export
So in 5 years it'll have paid for itself. Investing or saving it instead, yes, I could get growth from that cash but it's also fair to assume the cost of energy could grow as well.
I also have the option of battery storage so that I'm not selling 65% of my generation for cheap and to also avail of the night tariff better but I'll wait and see.
VW are talking about bi directional EV charging so if that's the case, I won't need to buy batteries as I've already bought a huge one, albeit, its inconveniently attached to my car.
On the question of why don't utilities invest in renewables, SSE are moving fast in energy storage facilities as a way of managing the grid. Also doing it in NI, although, not mentioned in the article:
https://www.sse.com/news-and-views/2024/04/sse-ren...
This is a great direction of travel with a lot of opportunities to unlock more solar and wind generation and put it to use more efficiently.
To speak on the generation side more specifically, I know that here in NI there are sites that have been approved for solar and wind, but the problem is the infrastructure in these areas means the grid is unable to take such huge volumes of energy creation.
The infrastructure is great in towns and cities, but no planning approval is getting passed for huge wind and solar arrays in these areas, not least, the capital cost of land too. Different story for large battery storage facilities - more compact and less 'visible' for planning.
So in summary, I think utilities would do more generation if they could, but it's not that easy compared to putting panels on a home roof on property that is already paid for, planning will automatically approve and the grid infrastructure is already capable of taking the micro generation.
romft123 said:
hasnt the FIT finished??
AFAIK, it has finished in the sense that you can't get on it, but it is still paying out. The main problem is that it pays out to a named individual (or company), not the owner of a particular address, so its payments are not part of the property deeds.Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff