Housing estate design of the last 20yrs - why so bad?
Discussion
At the risk of sounding like Prince Charles, I'd prefer to be in a Georgian mews.
I was contemplating the Stirling prize recently and thought looking at the prizewinners a few years on gives a quite different perspective.
Astley Castle won in 2013. IMO time hasn't been kind. The materials haven't worn well, the oak they introduced was varnished to a Benidorm orange colour, much of this has peeled causing the oak to go black. Internally the use of poplar and other bland woods have greyed giving the appearance of a dirty 1980's library. The new brickwork also invokes the Moscow suburb, there's a feel of concrete about it, the weathering hasn't been kind.
I assume the new part is intentionally bland so as to not distract from the original building. However just six years on the new part feels like it needs refurbishment, the ruin is still as majestic and appealing.
The partly roofed open spaces within the ruin do work well, although if you wanted to be uncharitable they are almost a default result of ring beaming the old walls and keeping the rain off them.
I've never had a Saab or Audi so it's all probably gone straight over my head
I was contemplating the Stirling prize recently and thought looking at the prizewinners a few years on gives a quite different perspective.
Astley Castle won in 2013. IMO time hasn't been kind. The materials haven't worn well, the oak they introduced was varnished to a Benidorm orange colour, much of this has peeled causing the oak to go black. Internally the use of poplar and other bland woods have greyed giving the appearance of a dirty 1980's library. The new brickwork also invokes the Moscow suburb, there's a feel of concrete about it, the weathering hasn't been kind.
I assume the new part is intentionally bland so as to not distract from the original building. However just six years on the new part feels like it needs refurbishment, the ruin is still as majestic and appealing.
The partly roofed open spaces within the ruin do work well, although if you wanted to be uncharitable they are almost a default result of ring beaming the old walls and keeping the rain off them.
I've never had a Saab or Audi so it's all probably gone straight over my head
Thread resurrection.
Interesting report highlighting the LA obsession with highway design and the affect it has on the places we live (see my previous comments about bin wagons): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-511...
Report sponsored by CPRE so hardly unbiased, but also Place Alliance who have a few, very erudite people I've enjoyed working with in the past sitting as members.
Good to see it's made it in to the msm. I suspect that the fact it's drawn a response from the Government together with the language they've used, suggests that it's actually a piece of work indirectly sponsored by the Government and is in fact trailing future policy.
We can live in hope!
Interesting report highlighting the LA obsession with highway design and the affect it has on the places we live (see my previous comments about bin wagons): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-511...
Report sponsored by CPRE so hardly unbiased, but also Place Alliance who have a few, very erudite people I've enjoyed working with in the past sitting as members.
Good to see it's made it in to the msm. I suspect that the fact it's drawn a response from the Government together with the language they've used, suggests that it's actually a piece of work indirectly sponsored by the Government and is in fact trailing future policy.
We can live in hope!
ben5575 said:
Thread resurrection.
Interesting report highlighting the LA obsession with highway design and the affect it has on the places we live (see my previous comments about bin wagons): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-511...
The trouble is as ever there will be a one size fits all policy, where it should be dependent on the area.Interesting report highlighting the LA obsession with highway design and the affect it has on the places we live (see my previous comments about bin wagons): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-511...
Plus the so-called Govt figures are dubious at best, given this comment....
BBC said:
It follows a government survey suggesting three quarters of people want to drive less to protect our health and the environment.
What Govt survey is that then?How many people took part in that then, I certainley didn't, didn't even know about it, as I suspect 99% of the population didn't either.
A bit like BMW's claim that 90% of 1 Series owners didn't know that their car was rwd to justify the move to fwd platform......when no such owner survey by BMW was ever done.
Oh, and this little gem in the article
BBC said:
“It’s an approach from the 1960s. We should be allowing people to walk and cycle to get to local facilities instead of having to get out the car every time. But car-dominated developments are still going up.”
What local facilities?My small estate is only 7 years old, and the nearest 'facilities' are 3 miles away, and what am I going to go there for that I can either carry by hand for a 6 mile walk or carry on a bike?
These idiotic people need to be locked up not allowed to spout crap like this.
Edited by aeropilot on Tuesday 21st January 09:37
Some elements of the report are the usual nevulous bulls
t
eg Developments should have been refused permission until they are redesigned to give a sense of place.
Whilst I see what they are getting at, sense of place is subjective and very difficult to convey on a plan. It also typically begs questions about who looks after public realm that not necessarily open to everyone, where do you put the cars (cars are inevitable and trying to design them out is idiotic).
I do agree that roads are over dominant, there is no harm in many estates in having soft verges rather than kerbs, narrower roads, pavement on one side not both, proper shared surfaces where the mix of users slows traffic and priorities sort them selves out naturally (the dutch are good at his).
If we could reduce the size and dominance of the road, we could reduce costs too, maybe find a way to direct the savings towards community benefit (I know I live in a dream world)
teg Developments should have been refused permission until they are redesigned to give a sense of place.
Whilst I see what they are getting at, sense of place is subjective and very difficult to convey on a plan. It also typically begs questions about who looks after public realm that not necessarily open to everyone, where do you put the cars (cars are inevitable and trying to design them out is idiotic).
I do agree that roads are over dominant, there is no harm in many estates in having soft verges rather than kerbs, narrower roads, pavement on one side not both, proper shared surfaces where the mix of users slows traffic and priorities sort them selves out naturally (the dutch are good at his).
If we could reduce the size and dominance of the road, we could reduce costs too, maybe find a way to direct the savings towards community benefit (I know I live in a dream world)
A new development in our village included a shop as part of the plans and it is a bonus having somewhere to get a meal/everyday items without having to drive anywhere, no doubt the builders could have made more money from putting houses there instead as it took a while before the shop got occupied.
greygoose said:
A new development in our village included a shop as part of the plans and it is a bonus having somewhere to get a meal/everyday items without having to drive anywhere, no doubt the builders could have made more money from putting houses there instead as it took a while before the shop got occupied.
Thats part of the problem. Insist on a facility like a shop when the commercial risks of running a village shop are not very attractive until the villages starts to get to the size of a small town....popeyewhite said:
ben5575 said:
Tlandcruiser said:
I also dont understand how we have a housing shortage, when I can search in any town and find houses for sale.
You’re confusing ‘housing need’ and ‘housing demand’The shortfall in housebuilding is circa 134,000 houses per annum all of which is social/affordable There are over 2m families on social housing waiting lists. One london borough reckons it needs 8000 social houses pa, last year it delivered 18.
I came across this article detailing how the size of houses has evolved over time. https://www.labc.co.uk/news/what-average-house-siz...
Fittster said:
I came across this article detailing how the size of houses has evolved over time. https://www.labc.co.uk/news/what-average-house-siz...
Interesting - Houses seem to start to get smaller at about the time PPG 3 was introduced. Government policy that set minimum densities on sites. It also align with increased production or apartments.blueg33 said:
Fittster said:
I came across this article detailing how the size of houses has evolved over time. https://www.labc.co.uk/news/what-average-house-siz...
Interesting - Houses seem to start to get smaller at about the time PPG 3 was introduced. Government policy that set minimum densities on sites. It also align with increased production or apartments.The so-called master bedroom in my 2012 built 3-bed detached is smaller in size than the '2nd' bedroom in my previous early 1960's built 2-bed maisonette (if you exclude the area of the en-suite)
Room for a king-size bed and no other furniture.
Clearly, UK domestic dwelling architects only own enough clothes to fill a rucksack as they clearly don't allow space to store clothes in modern houses (or bedding, or any other such items)
dhutch said:
Ofcause in 1920 there where no kingsize beds, or ensuites.
Its just as well that we don't have a king-size bed either in 2020 as we couldn't even fit in the two tiny bedside cabinets.....!We don't really need the seperate 'family' bathroom and that space given its got no window, would be better served as a 'walk-in' wardrobe type facility, but the cost of ripping out a bathroom and then re-fitting a bathroom to sell at some point is just too cost prohibitive.
aeropilot said:
What Govt survey is that then?
How many people took part in that then, I certainley didn't, didn't even know about it, as I suspect 99% of the population didn't either.
A bit like BMW's claim that 90% of 1 Series owners didn't know that their car was rwd to justify the move to fwd platform......when no such owner survey by BMW was ever done.
I did the Reading one as I'd read a few snarky comments about it and was surprised to see just how slanted against any option to choose anything other than what the council wanted.
For example, the option of your preferred method to get into Reading didn't even include 'by car, please'. Only bus, walking, train, etc...
So most people, like me, will have got half way through the 5 page questionnaire and realised it was just a pointless stitch-up and not bothered going any further. Those of a greener nature will have persevered as it serves their narrative.
Not suprised that 75& of respondents agreed based on this approach from our various lords and masters.
We live on a new build 'estate', built in 2015.
We only bought new as they were doing H2B (95% mortgage) and the developer allowed us to do 2.5% deposit on exchange and 2.5% on completion, i.e 9 months later.
5 Years later almost, I would not buy another new build and its actually little to do with the quality of the house itself but more about new build estate living.
We had few snags other than some blown tapes and sure, the internal construction is timber but ultimately its fine.
We pay £300 per year for a management company despite being freehold, this goes up each year and they often have a shortfall so demand more money. Its to maintain the common areas and although something we agreed to, naively we we told about £100 per year and we just thought this seemed nothing but 5 years later and its tripled in price.
Parking is bad on some parts of the estate and the visitor bays are taken up by those who have a single driveway but two cars or those who just don't want to use their drive or allocated space!
The roads are narrow so people mount kerbs etc, those living towards the back often have to stop 2 or 3 times to let people past parked cars before they can actually get to the main road. The garden is small but we knew it wasn't going to be huge, they don't actually give you dimensions so you have to hope for the best, plus we are overlooked by multiple houses due to them all being crammed in.
The houses being so crammed in, the parking issues, narrow roads and the ever increasing 'management' fee put me off doing this again.
We also have something in our house deeds which means we have to get a 'certificate' of some sort from the management company EVERY single time we remortgage, basically they have to agree to it before you can remortgage which was £140 the first time and we just paid £240 for our second remortgage.
We only bought new as they were doing H2B (95% mortgage) and the developer allowed us to do 2.5% deposit on exchange and 2.5% on completion, i.e 9 months later.
5 Years later almost, I would not buy another new build and its actually little to do with the quality of the house itself but more about new build estate living.
We had few snags other than some blown tapes and sure, the internal construction is timber but ultimately its fine.
We pay £300 per year for a management company despite being freehold, this goes up each year and they often have a shortfall so demand more money. Its to maintain the common areas and although something we agreed to, naively we we told about £100 per year and we just thought this seemed nothing but 5 years later and its tripled in price.
Parking is bad on some parts of the estate and the visitor bays are taken up by those who have a single driveway but two cars or those who just don't want to use their drive or allocated space!
The roads are narrow so people mount kerbs etc, those living towards the back often have to stop 2 or 3 times to let people past parked cars before they can actually get to the main road. The garden is small but we knew it wasn't going to be huge, they don't actually give you dimensions so you have to hope for the best, plus we are overlooked by multiple houses due to them all being crammed in.
The houses being so crammed in, the parking issues, narrow roads and the ever increasing 'management' fee put me off doing this again.
We also have something in our house deeds which means we have to get a 'certificate' of some sort from the management company EVERY single time we remortgage, basically they have to agree to it before you can remortgage which was £140 the first time and we just paid £240 for our second remortgage.
Wagonwheel555 said:
We pay £300 per year for a management company despite being freehold, this goes up each year and they often have a shortfall so demand more money. Its to maintain the common areas and although something we agreed to, naively we we told about £100 per year and we just thought this seemed nothing but 5 years later and its tripled in price.
Yes, this is something that concerns me that will happen as the years go on.The common areas are only those areas around the 'affordable housing' block at the end of the cul-de-sac, so clearly the 'other' residents are contributing to the subsidy of the affordable housing, despite as you say, being freehold.
All very communist
Such a new build was not my number one choice.....but needs must etc.
aeropilot said:
Wagonwheel555 said:
We pay £300 per year for a management company despite being freehold, this goes up each year and they often have a shortfall so demand more money. Its to maintain the common areas and although something we agreed to, naively we we told about £100 per year and we just thought this seemed nothing but 5 years later and its tripled in price.
Yes, this is something that concerns me that will happen as the years go on.The common areas are only those areas around the 'affordable housing' block at the end of the cul-de-sac, so clearly the 'other' residents are contributing to the subsidy of the affordable housing, despite as you say, being freehold.
All very communist
Such a new build was not my number one choice.....but needs must etc.
The developer has no long term interest in that (its just not the business model), so they seek to off load the responsibility to a company that specialises in it. To satisfy the planning condition you have to demonstrate that it will keep being maintained for 20 plus years (sometimes perpetuity), that means that the management charge has to have a price increase mechanism which tends to be RPI plus extraordinary items, as that a relatively realistic way on paper of making it work.
The end result is far from ideal for the householder, but actually not much different if the householder was having to do those works himself.
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