What would it cost...to build an outdoor Kart circuit?
Discussion
RacerMike said:
Biggest cost on any circuit is the safety equipment. Armco barriers are about £300ish per meter, and you need 3 meters (i.e. 3 x 1m in a vertical stack) per m of track. So that's basically £900-1000 per meter x 1700m = £1.7m for outside armco only. You need it on the inside in a few places, so you're realistically going to need £2.5m for barrier, plus the cost of tyre barriers or TecPro barriers.
For Go-Karts? Behave! 
Tuvra said:
RacerMike said:
Biggest cost on any circuit is the safety equipment. Armco barriers are about £300ish per meter, and you need 3 meters (i.e. 3 x 1m in a vertical stack) per m of track. So that's basically £900-1000 per meter x 1700m = £1.7m for outside armco only. You need it on the inside in a few places, so you're realistically going to need £2.5m for barrier, plus the cost of tyre barriers or TecPro barriers.
For Go-Karts? Behave! As I said, for karting, it'd be a lot cheaper surely. You've not got to have anywhere near the hardcourse down under the tarmac as the heaviest thing on them will be no more than about 200kg, and the energy involved in a crash is tiny. It still adds up though....although perhaps if you undercut the tyre scappage price you could actually build your tyre barriers for a profit!
RacerMike said:
Yeah, I think there's a bit of a disconnect between the actual thread and the front page news title.
As I said, for karting, it'd be a lot cheaper surely. You've not got to have anywhere near the hardcourse down under the tarmac as the heaviest thing on them will be no more than about 200kg, and the energy involved in a crash is tiny. It still adds up though....although perhaps if you undercut the tyre scappage price you could actually build your tyre barriers for a profit!
yup, 5-10 meter of grass either side of the track along with single depth tyre-walls on high risk areas will be absolutely fine for typical go karts.As I said, for karting, it'd be a lot cheaper surely. You've not got to have anywhere near the hardcourse down under the tarmac as the heaviest thing on them will be no more than about 200kg, and the energy involved in a crash is tiny. It still adds up though....although perhaps if you undercut the tyre scappage price you could actually build your tyre barriers for a profit!
The issue would be planning permission I guess. Went to an outdoor circuit just outside Cromer in Norfolk. Had a job finding it as it was down a track in the middle of fields and agricultural land. Talked to the owner and he said he had had real problems with resistance from his neighbours. He didn't have any sodding neighbours as far as the eye could see.
456mgt said:
The issue would be planning permission I guess. Went to an outdoor circuit just outside Cromer in Norfolk. Had a job finding it as it was down a track in the middle of fields and agricultural land. Talked to the owner and he said he had had real problems with resistance from his neighbours. He didn't have any sodding neighbours as far as the eye could see.
THIS is what i see as a major challenge, just as it is for car tracks. You'd need it to be miles from anywhere remotely populated. Proper race karts are not quiet, especialy when there's a ton of them racing together.thegreenhell said:
What planning permission would you need if it's just for your own private use? Let's say you owned a field, or even just had a large enough garden, and just wanted to lay some tarmac around it for your own amusement - no new buildings, and not running any type of business.
You'd need change of use, if the land was agricultural, and you'd need PP for all that tarmac.thegreenhell said:
What planning permission would you need if it's just for your own private use? Let's say you owned a field, or even just had a large enough garden, and just wanted to lay some tarmac around it for your own amusement - no new buildings, and not running any type of business.
I don't think planning regulations differentiate between a business and private use?OP got it right with most of the classic turns, and, as has been mentioned, they're nothing without the associated topography that makes them special.
Karussell has been mentioned. Naturally, the inward camber has to remain, but can I have it smoothed out from the original concrete panels to smooth asphalt?
Then you can whip around it without the discontinuities disturbing the suspension and your grip.
Can I also have an Eau Rouge, a Corkscrew, a Paddock Hill bend, and a Druids (again, with the camber) oh, and a Mistral and a Mulsanne - with chicanes... yeah I know they're not bends.
Karussell has been mentioned. Naturally, the inward camber has to remain, but can I have it smoothed out from the original concrete panels to smooth asphalt?
Then you can whip around it without the discontinuities disturbing the suspension and your grip.
Can I also have an Eau Rouge, a Corkscrew, a Paddock Hill bend, and a Druids (again, with the camber) oh, and a Mistral and a Mulsanne - with chicanes... yeah I know they're not bends.
nedge2k said:
Jeebus...I was thinking more the £1mil mark! Thanks for crushing my five minute dream 
a mates uncle did it for that along with a stock car and small drift circuit plus motocross track on site about 8 or 9 years ago. facilities were pretty basic though not sure about now as it has been sold on. I guess a kart track might work but the chances of building a brand new motor racing circuit in the UK now are vanishingly small.
a) there will always be somebody to object on noise/traffic grounds
b) very, very few places to build it. Even less that are actually accessible by at least a decent A road.
It was a perfect storm that led to us ending up with so many circuits in a small country (mainly WWII). Any of those that we lose now will never be replaced.
a) there will always be somebody to object on noise/traffic grounds
b) very, very few places to build it. Even less that are actually accessible by at least a decent A road.
It was a perfect storm that led to us ending up with so many circuits in a small country (mainly WWII). Any of those that we lose now will never be replaced.
RacerMike said:
And good car corners (a lot more difficult due to the huge level of elevation changes)
- Eau Rouge at Spa
- Pouhon (probably one of my favourite parts of Spa. Hooking it up for the second half is such a great feeling) at Spa
- Paddock Hill at Brands Hatch
- Hawthorn at Brands Hatch (such a great technical, and blind(!), corner)
The 180 degree 'Bruxelles' at Spa (I don't recall it being called that in the 1990's ?!) is a great challenge too, constant radius but also descending downhill. Stavelot is also a challenge to get right to get a good run onto Blanchimont, beyond. Illustrates your point about what comes before and after.- Eau Rouge at Spa
- Pouhon (probably one of my favourite parts of Spa. Hooking it up for the second half is such a great feeling) at Spa
- Paddock Hill at Brands Hatch
- Hawthorn at Brands Hatch (such a great technical, and blind(!), corner)
Tuvra said:
How do you come to that figure?
Hire in an excavator, two dumptrucks and a blade, you'd have the land formed in a week at a cost of about £10k. Sub base and Tarmac would cost you circa £300k, throw in labour/machinery to lay it say £300k, that leaves you £390,000 for drainage, kerbs, tyre walls, lights, lights, fencing etc. Figures based on a 10,000m2 surface.
What exactly would "FIA Standard" require? I think £3-4m "before building facilities and assuming minimal landscaping" is miles off the mark.
In reference to the PFI International costing £100k in Planning and £7.5m to build, it didn't. If you read the article it states he spent £100k on planning applications on various sites and that he has spent £7.5m overall, not to build it. Article mentions that it has been extended, resurfaced and that its been running since 1997, at the time of that article it was 18 years old! I think it's fair to assume that the £7.5m includes 18 years of running costs.
Missed this the first time around, but if you re-read my original post, instead of paraphrasing it, you'll see I put;Hire in an excavator, two dumptrucks and a blade, you'd have the land formed in a week at a cost of about £10k. Sub base and Tarmac would cost you circa £300k, throw in labour/machinery to lay it say £300k, that leaves you £390,000 for drainage, kerbs, tyre walls, lights, lights, fencing etc. Figures based on a 10,000m2 surface.
What exactly would "FIA Standard" require? I think £3-4m "before building facilities and assuming minimal landscaping" is miles off the mark.
In reference to the PFI International costing £100k in Planning and £7.5m to build, it didn't. If you read the article it states he spent £100k on planning applications on various sites and that he has spent £7.5m overall, not to build it. Article mentions that it has been extended, resurfaced and that its been running since 1997, at the time of that article it was 18 years old! I think it's fair to assume that the £7.5m includes 18 years of running costs.
"he said he's spent about £7.5m getting it to where it is today - with over £100,000 on planning permission alone;"
I don't think I ever insinuated that was a one off cost. Having seen how much Driftland cost to build in Scotland, I know what sort of budget a new but non-FIA grade circuit can be done for. But seeing as PFI is the only CIK-FIA approved circuit in the UK, and that was what was specifically requested, I answered with the most appropriate figure I had to hand. Add to that PFI wasn't CIK approved before the crossover loop was added, so that's why I gave the total - as that's what it took to achieve approval.
Having just dug the old interview transcript out, the question I asked Paul at the time was in regard to just the build costs, on getting the track to the standard it was at in 2013. Running costs were covered in another part of the interview that didn't make the final draft. So no, it's not a fair assumption either.
And I do like how your proclamation that its 'miles off the mark' follows the question 'What exactly does it require?' Amazing stuff. For some insight, here's a link to the regulations;
http://www.cikfia.com/fileadmin/content/REGULATION...
And a link to the 14 different appendices that compliment the regulations;
http://www.cikfia.com/regulations/circuits.html
There's a substantial difference between delivering an international-grade circuit and the type that have a fleet of knackered arrive and drives weaving around a track crudely laid out with tires. But still, as I've often found on PH, I have less than 1,000 posts...so what the f
k do I know?! tylerama said:
The 180 degree 'Bruxelles' at Spa (I don't recall it being called that in the 1990's ?!) is a great challenge too, constant radius but also descending downhill. Stavelot is also a challenge to get right to get a good run onto Blanchimont, beyond. Illustrates your point about what comes before and after.
I've been calling that corner 'Rivage 1' forever.Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff