Our build thread, renovation and extension
Discussion
RC944 said:
Would that include supply and installation of white goods and kitchen and bathrooms?
Yes, but I haven't seen the breakdown yet so I've no idea to what extent they went to town on kitchen applicances etc. Apparently most of my estimates for certain things (materials and labour that we could not avoid) were pretty accurate.Well I met with my prospective builder at the weekend, he comes recommended by my architect who I trust and I know him personally, he used to be my football manager when I was 11-15.
He employed a quantity surveyor to price up the job to give me an idea of what to expect, he did point out that it's on a worst case basis, but having looked at the figures I can't help but think some of the things are way out.
Just one example of this is the price for the external walls, which comes out at over £18k inc VAT.
Now there is 89m2 of blockwork in each skin and a little brickwork (only from the ground less than 1m to form a plinth). Now every single way I try to calculate it, using figures in the housebuilder's bible, contract rate documents online, online calculators and current blockwork prices in magazines I can only get to about £7-8k, including render.
I can't possibly see what else is included in that figure as everything else such as insulation is carved out and priced separately. Therefore I can't escape the conclusion that the QS is overpricing it by so much his estimates are totally worthless.
He employed a quantity surveyor to price up the job to give me an idea of what to expect, he did point out that it's on a worst case basis, but having looked at the figures I can't help but think some of the things are way out.
Just one example of this is the price for the external walls, which comes out at over £18k inc VAT.
Now there is 89m2 of blockwork in each skin and a little brickwork (only from the ground less than 1m to form a plinth). Now every single way I try to calculate it, using figures in the housebuilder's bible, contract rate documents online, online calculators and current blockwork prices in magazines I can only get to about £7-8k, including render.
I can't possibly see what else is included in that figure as everything else such as insulation is carved out and priced separately. Therefore I can't escape the conclusion that the QS is overpricing it by so much his estimates are totally worthless.
MonkeyBusiness said:
That word makes me shudder with tradesmen. I can't help thinking you are opening yourself up to a world of pain with an estimate. Can't he give a set price for the job?
Great thread BTW.
Oh absolutely, it will proceed on a fixed price that I am happy with once we have actual quantities. I'm just struggling to see the value in an estimate from a QS that is ridiculously on the high side, you can't use it for any sensible planning at all.Great thread BTW.
RC944 said:
What did your builder say when you told him his QS was spouting nonsense?
I only had about 30 minutes with him and there was a lot to take in, so I assumed I had made an error and to be honest couldn't recall my estimate for the blockwork anyway.I've just bought a few self build magazines and they list prices in the back, at £24 per square meter it should cost £4,752 + the render coat, rather than £18k!
dxg said:
As an ex-QS, I can only suggest that a job of this scale won't be getting much of their attention. They may well have given it to their placement student to price up who may even have resorted to a price book... Or they haven't read the spec. Or they've thought "minor works" have have bumped all the figures up accordingly.
The QS apparently is semi retired and owns the local post office, all a bit odd. If I could get paid £120 for coming up with random figures like that I would be well happy!I thought it was going too smoothly!
Got a response from the conservation officer via the planning officer who said he loved it.
She has a problem with:
- rendered finish (she wants brick)
- said it was too large and wants it reduced in width by a brick width and a half to retain the quoins on the corners
- said the roof height will have to be reduced (but only by a few inches we think on the extension)
- said she wasn't happy with our decision to replace the windows with white uPVC.
Our application didn't mention uPVC at all so she has clearly read that into it. Our architect has said that they can't actually have any say over that element, but we may prodive details of what we do intend to use to re-assure them.
So our architect is now looking for matching bricks and doesn't seem too bothered about the comments, by stepping one wall in a brick width it will have the effect of reducing the roof height fractionally anyway.
Got a response from the conservation officer via the planning officer who said he loved it.
She has a problem with:
- rendered finish (she wants brick)
- said it was too large and wants it reduced in width by a brick width and a half to retain the quoins on the corners
- said the roof height will have to be reduced (but only by a few inches we think on the extension)
- said she wasn't happy with our decision to replace the windows with white uPVC.
Our application didn't mention uPVC at all so she has clearly read that into it. Our architect has said that they can't actually have any say over that element, but we may prodive details of what we do intend to use to re-assure them.
So our architect is now looking for matching bricks and doesn't seem too bothered about the comments, by stepping one wall in a brick width it will have the effect of reducing the roof height fractionally anyway.
Things are slowly ticking along at the moment. The architect is revising the plans and should have something ready for the early part of the week.
I met with a builder on saturday who comes recommended, seemed to get on well. He said he would come back with a price but it turned out he actually uses the same QS who priced it before. He took a look at the price and said some of the things did seem a bit out, given what he was looking at. Incidentally he gave me the name of a good bloke to speak to at a builder's merchants and also the place to get drainage equipment at pretty much half the price of anywhere else, which was handy.
I also met with a chippy, who comes recommended from the roofer. Funny old bloke, barely comprehensible thick Suffolk accent but I get the impression he really knows his onions. He gave me a rough price for his element of the roof. I've now had a rough indication of several elements of the roof cost and it appears to be coming out at less than a third of the price the QS advised of. The chippy also said don't bother paying for anyone to install the first floor of the extension, just get the bricky to set the joist hangers in the walls and cut and fix the timbers myself because it's pretty easy.
I picked up a load of cable and socket boxes from a wholesalers to start the first fix electrics and have had a couple of samples through from Guy at EcoLED which look the business.
Yesterday I then started to dig up some more of the drains to get an idea of the depth they sit at and the direction they head in. After a while I found that whilst many were at or near the surface, a couple are about 18 inches down, which combined with the fall and the way the garden level rises towards the road means it's probably not practical to get those replaced by hand. So we'll be getting another digger in for a week to replace those and the water main and dig a couple of soakaways at the same time, before we start digging the foundations. I sat down with my plumber at the weekend and plotted a rough path for the drains taking into account the direction of the joists and I think I've got a fairly good solution to pass to the architect. We don't need to run drains any further than they went before which is good so we don't need to worry about having sufficient fall.
This is just a rough sketch below, I haven't planned for all the rodding points but can anyone spot any problems with this?
I met with a builder on saturday who comes recommended, seemed to get on well. He said he would come back with a price but it turned out he actually uses the same QS who priced it before. He took a look at the price and said some of the things did seem a bit out, given what he was looking at. Incidentally he gave me the name of a good bloke to speak to at a builder's merchants and also the place to get drainage equipment at pretty much half the price of anywhere else, which was handy.
I also met with a chippy, who comes recommended from the roofer. Funny old bloke, barely comprehensible thick Suffolk accent but I get the impression he really knows his onions. He gave me a rough price for his element of the roof. I've now had a rough indication of several elements of the roof cost and it appears to be coming out at less than a third of the price the QS advised of. The chippy also said don't bother paying for anyone to install the first floor of the extension, just get the bricky to set the joist hangers in the walls and cut and fix the timbers myself because it's pretty easy.
I picked up a load of cable and socket boxes from a wholesalers to start the first fix electrics and have had a couple of samples through from Guy at EcoLED which look the business.
Yesterday I then started to dig up some more of the drains to get an idea of the depth they sit at and the direction they head in. After a while I found that whilst many were at or near the surface, a couple are about 18 inches down, which combined with the fall and the way the garden level rises towards the road means it's probably not practical to get those replaced by hand. So we'll be getting another digger in for a week to replace those and the water main and dig a couple of soakaways at the same time, before we start digging the foundations. I sat down with my plumber at the weekend and plotted a rough path for the drains taking into account the direction of the joists and I think I've got a fairly good solution to pass to the architect. We don't need to run drains any further than they went before which is good so we don't need to worry about having sufficient fall.
This is just a rough sketch below, I haven't planned for all the rodding points but can anyone spot any problems with this?
We've been back up at the house for the last few days. We've sunk about two thirds of the socket back boxes into the wall and will shortly run some cable around which shouldn't take too long. Next up will be the light switches, and boxes for the cat6/tv, when I get get some singles or twin singles.
I've now ordered all the materials for the new drains, just need to get some pea shingle and alkathene pipe for the new water connection. I'll be ordering a digger in the new week or two to do both of those, as well as laying some conduit for cable TV.
We had to dig out a pretty hefty concrete slab from the pantry as that is where one of the new drains will enter before heading under the suspended wood floor.
Stud wall and downstairs toilet mark in with gaffer tape.
I've now ordered all the materials for the new drains, just need to get some pea shingle and alkathene pipe for the new water connection. I'll be ordering a digger in the new week or two to do both of those, as well as laying some conduit for cable TV.
We had to dig out a pretty hefty concrete slab from the pantry as that is where one of the new drains will enter before heading under the suspended wood floor.
Stud wall and downstairs toilet mark in with gaffer tape.
A bit more progress, a lot done today.
Our revised plans have also gone into the planners. It looks a lot more messy, but apparently that's what they want... I will get some scans up on monday when I am back in the office.
We have a brick match, our architect is happy with it, I think it looks fairly close, but a builder who came round today thinks he can do better so we will wait and see.
A few lengths of drainpipe have turned up! Along with a few boxes of drainage equipment.
We did a fair amount of work today removing some of the U bends from the rainwater drains and importantly uncovering the electricty supply which annoyingly appears to have been laid in the same trench as the drains, a few inches underneath it. You can just about make it out in this picture, it comes out and bends left to run parallel with the pipe. That is going to make digging the drain out very difficult with a digger, I think we will just have to proceed carefully.
A few bags of pea shingle arrived for the drains...
Cast iron downpipe removed as it was looking a little precarious. The U bend was also removed at the bottom which had a lot of concrete around it!
All of the concrete down the side of the house was removed, along with the foot thick plinth for the waterbutt. One leg of the drain run is going to head under that wall next weekend.
The other side of the wall the patio has been lifted and the good bricks salvaged as they may be worth something. This is in preparation for the drain run which should happen next weekend.
Now according to the quantity surveyor our foul water drainage should cost approximately £4,350 to do.
In actual fact I have spent £476 on drainage goods, £180 on pea shingle and my man with a digger is costing me £120. There should be nothing else I need for that so it should cost only £776
Our revised plans have also gone into the planners. It looks a lot more messy, but apparently that's what they want... I will get some scans up on monday when I am back in the office.
We have a brick match, our architect is happy with it, I think it looks fairly close, but a builder who came round today thinks he can do better so we will wait and see.
A few lengths of drainpipe have turned up! Along with a few boxes of drainage equipment.
We did a fair amount of work today removing some of the U bends from the rainwater drains and importantly uncovering the electricty supply which annoyingly appears to have been laid in the same trench as the drains, a few inches underneath it. You can just about make it out in this picture, it comes out and bends left to run parallel with the pipe. That is going to make digging the drain out very difficult with a digger, I think we will just have to proceed carefully.
A few bags of pea shingle arrived for the drains...
Cast iron downpipe removed as it was looking a little precarious. The U bend was also removed at the bottom which had a lot of concrete around it!
All of the concrete down the side of the house was removed, along with the foot thick plinth for the waterbutt. One leg of the drain run is going to head under that wall next weekend.
The other side of the wall the patio has been lifted and the good bricks salvaged as they may be worth something. This is in preparation for the drain run which should happen next weekend.
Now according to the quantity surveyor our foul water drainage should cost approximately £4,350 to do.
In actual fact I have spent £476 on drainage goods, £180 on pea shingle and my man with a digger is costing me £120. There should be nothing else I need for that so it should cost only £776
Edited by Muncher on Saturday 12th May 19:20
Thanks for the comments guys. As regards an inspection chamber at the bend near the dining room, the plumber said that it's very easy to rod round that corner if necessary from the cover at the side of the house.
Tonker - it's a 3 inch pipe that will join into there from the kitchen so it should be ok. There is an existing manhole cover about a foot away from where the new one on the right will be. It is very close to the surface, if we continued any further back to where the sink will be we would start to have issues with having the required fall as the pipe would be above the current surface level.
Thanks VEX - Now looking at it
Tonker - it's a 3 inch pipe that will join into there from the kitchen so it should be ok. There is an existing manhole cover about a foot away from where the new one on the right will be. It is very close to the surface, if we continued any further back to where the sink will be we would start to have issues with having the required fall as the pipe would be above the current surface level.
Thanks VEX - Now looking at it
Oh and first reasonably accurate price from a builder came in this afternoon. £29,500
That's for the groundworks, floor slab, inner skin blockwork, outer skin brickwork, chimney, first floor, 4 steels, cutting a new window opening, up to roof plate.
The roof I will handle myself with the aid of a chippy and roofer in part, that's for 110sqm, any thoughts on that?
That's for the groundworks, floor slab, inner skin blockwork, outer skin brickwork, chimney, first floor, 4 steels, cutting a new window opening, up to roof plate.
The roof I will handle myself with the aid of a chippy and roofer in part, that's for 110sqm, any thoughts on that?
Here's the revised plans which the conservation officer insisted on...
- Changed to brick rather than render (not too bothered abouth that)
- Inset on the side wall on one side (totally pointless and makes it look a little cluttered)
- Roof height reduced (makes it look more messy there)
- Changed to brick rather than render (not too bothered abouth that)
- Inset on the side wall on one side (totally pointless and makes it look a little cluttered)
- Roof height reduced (makes it look more messy there)
Well it's been a busy weekend, we have substantially completed the drains and all of the electric, network and TV back boxes have been chased into the existing house.
Hopefully we have got the levels right, with approx 0.75-1 degree of fall on each section of pipe which equates to around 1 in 80. Fitting the pipes together and adjusting the heights is a relatively easy job, digging the holes a little less so. We had to avoid the water connection, the gas pipes and the electricty cable which were all in pretty much the same area. It was a case of digging as carefully as we could whilst tracking the pipes as we went, it all went relatively smoothly apart from nicking the gas pipe which had turned off at 90 degrees and headed off in a completely different direction. Luckilly it could be sealed with gaffer tape and Transco came out and fixed it last night.
We also had to contend with a pond in the way of our trench for the water pipe, which was made of thick reinforced concrete, a diversion away from the utilities for this trench which meant our pipe became a meter too short and the digger cracking a manhole cover we didn't even know was there, exposing a 5 foot deep pit! We decided not to replace the existing pipes all the way back to the road as digging at that depth with lots of underground services laying around became increasingly difficult and because those pipes looked as if they would last another 200 years easily. Everything on that house was supremely well built for the time.
We just need to finish off a few ends of the pipe, line up the rainwater traps properly and fit another man hole and core drill through the brickwork into the house for the rainwater and the new water pipe. We're planning on core drilling through the wall and using flexi couplers either side as we understand the building regs permit this as an alternative to using lintels.
Some areas of pipe close to the house became quite shallow despite using the minimum fall we could, so these will probably have to be concrete over or paving slabs laid to protect them. I think a chat with the building inspector will be required to decide the best route forwards on that.
The full set of pics are here: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.101517484...
Hopefully we have got the levels right, with approx 0.75-1 degree of fall on each section of pipe which equates to around 1 in 80. Fitting the pipes together and adjusting the heights is a relatively easy job, digging the holes a little less so. We had to avoid the water connection, the gas pipes and the electricty cable which were all in pretty much the same area. It was a case of digging as carefully as we could whilst tracking the pipes as we went, it all went relatively smoothly apart from nicking the gas pipe which had turned off at 90 degrees and headed off in a completely different direction. Luckilly it could be sealed with gaffer tape and Transco came out and fixed it last night.
We also had to contend with a pond in the way of our trench for the water pipe, which was made of thick reinforced concrete, a diversion away from the utilities for this trench which meant our pipe became a meter too short and the digger cracking a manhole cover we didn't even know was there, exposing a 5 foot deep pit! We decided not to replace the existing pipes all the way back to the road as digging at that depth with lots of underground services laying around became increasingly difficult and because those pipes looked as if they would last another 200 years easily. Everything on that house was supremely well built for the time.
We just need to finish off a few ends of the pipe, line up the rainwater traps properly and fit another man hole and core drill through the brickwork into the house for the rainwater and the new water pipe. We're planning on core drilling through the wall and using flexi couplers either side as we understand the building regs permit this as an alternative to using lintels.
Some areas of pipe close to the house became quite shallow despite using the minimum fall we could, so these will probably have to be concrete over or paving slabs laid to protect them. I think a chat with the building inspector will be required to decide the best route forwards on that.
The full set of pics are here: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.101517484...
I had some advice that a cat scanner isn't very easy to use and isn't very accurate so probably not a great deal of help. We were pretty careful, it took 4 of us an entire day to dig that so I think we were going as carefully as practical.
When I phone Transco they assured me there would be no charge as it's their responsibility before the meter. When the bloke turned up he said there would be a charge to fix it and refused to say how much so we'll he having an argument over that. It's too shallow and less than the HSE guideline depth, a fork would have gone through it.
When I phone Transco they assured me there would be no charge as it's their responsibility before the meter. When the bloke turned up he said there would be a charge to fix it and refused to say how much so we'll he having an argument over that. It's too shallow and less than the HSE guideline depth, a fork would have gone through it.
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