Help with difficult neighbours and Party Wall Act
Discussion
QuickQuack said:
Karlsruhe said:
Just to be clear. I am more than happy to have further conciliatory meetings with the neighbours to find suitable compromise! When I handed in the notice I spoke to the neighbour and went through the plans. I have also had a further meeting with neighbour and daughter and I set this up with the builder so that they could both ask questions etc. My intention is to facilitate further meetings if need be.
The property we live, in to accommodate the second storey at the rear will be a dormer and the new roof will be raised 50 cm to accommodate this. The front roof will be the same existing height. From the front it will still occupy the same amount of land as ultimately it is an L shaped extension whereby the garage wall (at the boundary as per original build) will be longer and taller at the rear. From a vantage perspective looking from the top of the street it will still appear as a bungalow- certainly not a monstrosity! Also on our street there have been another 3 properties that have been extended considerably- it's not a precedent.
The distance between both properties to the boundary wall is circa 2 metres. I accept and understand the neighbour not giving me access if that is where I stand from a legal perspective (but wanted to check this), no issues (although admittedly not ideal for obvious reasons). It was just the daughter's insistence that I cannot build the extension as per plans, despite approval which flummoxed me.
You may need to be even more conciliatory and consider a compromise with your plans. The daughter is 100% correct, I'm afraid. If you want to build a new party wall astride the boundary, then you must have written consent of the adjoining neighbour. If you don't have written consent, it doesn't matter what planning permission you have, it doesn't matter what planning drawings have been approved, you can't build it. That's the legislation - Party Wall etc Act 1996 and HERE for the explanatory booklet . In such cases, the party wall must be built wholly on your land. You can potentially have planning consent for land you don't own. It doesn't give you the right to just plough in and build stuff without the consent of the landowner. The property we live, in to accommodate the second storey at the rear will be a dormer and the new roof will be raised 50 cm to accommodate this. The front roof will be the same existing height. From the front it will still occupy the same amount of land as ultimately it is an L shaped extension whereby the garage wall (at the boundary as per original build) will be longer and taller at the rear. From a vantage perspective looking from the top of the street it will still appear as a bungalow- certainly not a monstrosity! Also on our street there have been another 3 properties that have been extended considerably- it's not a precedent.
The distance between both properties to the boundary wall is circa 2 metres. I accept and understand the neighbour not giving me access if that is where I stand from a legal perspective (but wanted to check this), no issues (although admittedly not ideal for obvious reasons). It was just the daughter's insistence that I cannot build the extension as per plans, despite approval which flummoxed me.
Also beware that any guttering, soffits, fascias etc., may not protrude into your neighbour's property over the boundary. That may have been a/the reason why they objected in the first place; it could stop or reduce the future development potential of their property if they allowed you to build astride the boundary, particularly when any roof furniture and structures are added above the wall itself. Plus, then they wouldn't be able to extend to the boundary without converting the properties to semi-detached from their current detached status and they would need to keep 2-3 ft within their boundary, and lose that from their development.
Think about it from their perspective - why should they allow you to do something which will potentially disadvantage them/their property in the future? This won't be just about the present time, it will be about what can happen years down the line, even when they're selling the property. Small things like this make a property less attractive to a family than another one without a neighbour right on the boundary without restricted development potential. These are all things you consider when you start thinking about objecting to such a request or agreeing to it. Conversely, you should also think about the impact of your extension and your request on your neighbours before you give them notice and speak to them.
I've just been on the other end of this.
No chat from the neighbors we share the wall with. Just landed with planning permission one day. We knew it was coming as the other side has some significant issues and whilst it was going to be a pain, sorting out the other side would benefit us in the long run as the houses are joined.
But a bit annoyed that they didn't even discuss it with us. I was in the garden one day and they headed round to "chat" and casually mentioned that they hoped to start in 4 weeks. When I mentioned Party Wall, they mumbled something and said "I'll leave it with my architect, but don't worry, it will be fine."
Few weeks later they came past to say that the builder could start soon and "did I have any objections." I just said "let me know what you want to do about the party wall."
In the end their surveyor called me and told me not to agree. We went to dissent and they had to pay for a surveyor for us and one to mediate. It got finalised last week, so we look forward to our first summer in the house with non-stop building work.
But it is all above board and we are going to tie in some work on our place at the same time and I have offered to contribute towards some scaffolding so I can sort out my chimney.
Our approach was "this is business and we don't know you, so let's just do it properly." Are we happy about months of noise and dust, no. Would we have been more accomodating if they had spoken to us, not really. It's major structural work going into our shared wall and boundary.
Go through the party wall process and leave them be.
No chat from the neighbors we share the wall with. Just landed with planning permission one day. We knew it was coming as the other side has some significant issues and whilst it was going to be a pain, sorting out the other side would benefit us in the long run as the houses are joined.
But a bit annoyed that they didn't even discuss it with us. I was in the garden one day and they headed round to "chat" and casually mentioned that they hoped to start in 4 weeks. When I mentioned Party Wall, they mumbled something and said "I'll leave it with my architect, but don't worry, it will be fine."
Few weeks later they came past to say that the builder could start soon and "did I have any objections." I just said "let me know what you want to do about the party wall."
In the end their surveyor called me and told me not to agree. We went to dissent and they had to pay for a surveyor for us and one to mediate. It got finalised last week, so we look forward to our first summer in the house with non-stop building work.
But it is all above board and we are going to tie in some work on our place at the same time and I have offered to contribute towards some scaffolding so I can sort out my chimney.
Our approach was "this is business and we don't know you, so let's just do it properly." Are we happy about months of noise and dust, no. Would we have been more accomodating if they had spoken to us, not really. It's major structural work going into our shared wall and boundary.
Go through the party wall process and leave them be.
Mr Pointy said:
Mandat said:
Mr Pointy said:
dickymint said:
OP's first post says "we are building up to the boundary line." 
But what about the foundations?Alteratively, eccentric foundations can be used, if possible.
I've no idea what the law is on this, but building on the boundary line seems quite, i dunno, dramatic to me. I'd be well pissed off if someone did it to me and I'd rather move than do it to another.
I'm not suggesting it's morally wrong or anything but i can sympathise with why people get upset over it
I'm not suggesting it's morally wrong or anything but i can sympathise with why people get upset over it
LuckyThirteen said:
I'm making the point that absolutely zero compensation for the affected party has been discussed.
For me, that's quite rude
The approach of a pragmatist. For me, that's quite rude
A modest amount of money respectfully positioned, with some wiggle room for negotiation can often overcome the most intractable objections.
LuckyThirteen said:
Yep,
It needs to be by the week, painful enough that you don't allow any drag on the build. Yet sweet enough that they're onboard.
Utter sIt needs to be by the week, painful enough that you don't allow any drag on the build. Yet sweet enough that they're onboard.
teI'd rather just fall out and be done with it than essentially bribing them to be "onboard" what does being "onboard" actually entail? What's the return on investment for these payments?
From reading this thread, I guess I've been very lucky with my renovations. Previous house I did both a wrap around and a loft conversion (semi) with non of this box ticking stuff which is essentially a waste of both time and money in almost all cases.
Both neighbours either side came to my wedding and we keep in touch.
Current house is a demolition and rebuild 4x the size and again, we are very friendly with our immediate neighbours even though the application went in two weeks after buying the place. They know the house is knackered and the work was an inevitability.
Bear in mind the act is there to facilitate works in a manner acceptable to both sides ( or more specifically their surveyor.
I have had a nightmare with the party wall act - the other sides surveyor was kicked out of the Pyramus and Thisbe club https://pyramusandthisbesociety.org/ which is a big deal in surveyor circies.
I hope you have better luck.
To those questioning building to the boundary. My neighbour did this as did I - we were quite central in London and the number of sqm of floor area made it compelling to be frank. Outside of London I would personally try to avoid it. I would also personally modify my plans ( as I did in my most recent build ) to avoid works under the act but I appreciate not everyone can do the same thing.
I have had a nightmare with the party wall act - the other sides surveyor was kicked out of the Pyramus and Thisbe club https://pyramusandthisbesociety.org/ which is a big deal in surveyor circies.
I hope you have better luck.
To those questioning building to the boundary. My neighbour did this as did I - we were quite central in London and the number of sqm of floor area made it compelling to be frank. Outside of London I would personally try to avoid it. I would also personally modify my plans ( as I did in my most recent build ) to avoid works under the act but I appreciate not everyone can do the same thing.
whatxd said:
LuckyThirteen said:
Yep,
It needs to be by the week, painful enough that you don't allow any drag on the build. Yet sweet enough that they're onboard.
Utter sIt needs to be by the week, painful enough that you don't allow any drag on the build. Yet sweet enough that they're onboard.
teI'd rather just fall out and be done with it than essentially bribing them to be "onboard" what does being "onboard" actually entail? What's the return on investment for these payments?
From reading this thread, I guess I've been very lucky with my renovations. Previous house I did both a wrap around and a loft conversion (semi) with non of this box ticking stuff which is essentially a waste of both time and money in almost all cases.
Both neighbours either side came to my wedding and we keep in touch.
Current house is a demolition and rebuild 4x the size and again, we are very friendly with our immediate neighbours even though the application went in two weeks after buying the place. They know the house is knackered and the work was an inevitability.
If bribery greases the wheels, so be it.
It'd likely be a small portion of the increase to the value of the home. Besides which declaring a neighbour dispute should op ever have to sell could be equally as costly in the long run.
Means to an end.
LuckyThirteen said:
whatxd said:
LuckyThirteen said:
Yep,
It needs to be by the week, painful enough that you don't allow any drag on the build. Yet sweet enough that they're onboard.
Utter sIt needs to be by the week, painful enough that you don't allow any drag on the build. Yet sweet enough that they're onboard.
teI'd rather just fall out and be done with it than essentially bribing them to be "onboard" what does being "onboard" actually entail? What's the return on investment for these payments?
From reading this thread, I guess I've been very lucky with my renovations. Previous house I did both a wrap around and a loft conversion (semi) with non of this box ticking stuff which is essentially a waste of both time and money in almost all cases.
Both neighbours either side came to my wedding and we keep in touch.
Current house is a demolition and rebuild 4x the size and again, we are very friendly with our immediate neighbours even though the application went in two weeks after buying the place. They know the house is knackered and the work was an inevitability.
If bribery greases the wheels, so be it.
It'd likely be a small portion of the increase to the value of the home. Besides which declaring a neighbour dispute should op ever have to sell could be equally as costly in the long run.
Means to an end.
LuckyThirteen said:
whatxd said:
LuckyThirteen said:
Yep,
It needs to be by the week, painful enough that you don't allow any drag on the build. Yet sweet enough that they're onboard.
Utter sIt needs to be by the week, painful enough that you don't allow any drag on the build. Yet sweet enough that they're onboard.
teI'd rather just fall out and be done with it than essentially bribing them to be "onboard" what does being "onboard" actually entail? What's the return on investment for these payments?
From reading this thread, I guess I've been very lucky with my renovations. Previous house I did both a wrap around and a loft conversion (semi) with non of this box ticking stuff which is essentially a waste of both time and money in almost all cases.
Both neighbours either side came to my wedding and we keep in touch.
Current house is a demolition and rebuild 4x the size and again, we are very friendly with our immediate neighbours even though the application went in two weeks after buying the place. They know the house is knackered and the work was an inevitability.
If bribery greases the wheels, so be it.
It'd likely be a small portion of the increase to the value of the home. Besides which declaring a neighbour dispute should op ever have to sell could be equally as costly in the long run.
Means to an end.
whatxd said:
Utter ste
I'd rather just fall out and be done with it than essentially bribing them to be "onboard" what does being "onboard" actually entail? What's the return on investment for these payments?
From reading this thread, I guess I've been very lucky with my renovations. Previous house I did both a wrap around and a loft conversion (semi) with non of this box ticking stuff which is essentially a waste of both time and money in almost all cases.
Both neighbours either side came to my wedding and we keep in touch.
Current house is a demolition and rebuild 4x the size and again, we are very friendly with our immediate neighbours even though the application went in two weeks after buying the place. They know the house is knackered and the work was an inevitability.
You haven't started yet teI'd rather just fall out and be done with it than essentially bribing them to be "onboard" what does being "onboard" actually entail? What's the return on investment for these payments?
From reading this thread, I guess I've been very lucky with my renovations. Previous house I did both a wrap around and a loft conversion (semi) with non of this box ticking stuff which is essentially a waste of both time and money in almost all cases.
Both neighbours either side came to my wedding and we keep in touch.
Current house is a demolition and rebuild 4x the size and again, we are very friendly with our immediate neighbours even though the application went in two weeks after buying the place. They know the house is knackered and the work was an inevitability.
pork911 said:
whatxd said:
Utter ste
I'd rather just fall out and be done with it than essentially bribing them to be "onboard" what does being "onboard" actually entail? What's the return on investment for these payments?
From reading this thread, I guess I've been very lucky with my renovations. Previous house I did both a wrap around and a loft conversion (semi) with non of this box ticking stuff which is essentially a waste of both time and money in almost all cases.
Both neighbours either side came to my wedding and we keep in touch.
Current house is a demolition and rebuild 4x the size and again, we are very friendly with our immediate neighbours even though the application went in two weeks after buying the place. They know the house is knackered and the work was an inevitability.
You haven't started yet teI'd rather just fall out and be done with it than essentially bribing them to be "onboard" what does being "onboard" actually entail? What's the return on investment for these payments?
From reading this thread, I guess I've been very lucky with my renovations. Previous house I did both a wrap around and a loft conversion (semi) with non of this box ticking stuff which is essentially a waste of both time and money in almost all cases.
Both neighbours either side came to my wedding and we keep in touch.
Current house is a demolition and rebuild 4x the size and again, we are very friendly with our immediate neighbours even though the application went in two weeks after buying the place. They know the house is knackered and the work was an inevitability.
I can say with complete certainty though that should things go south, I won't start sending them weekly payments so that we can still be friends aka "onboard"
whatxd said:
Can't argue with that one
I can say with complete certainty though that should things go south, I won't start sending them weekly payments so that we can still be friends aka "onboard"
Ok then.I can say with complete certainty though that should things go south, I won't start sending them weekly payments so that we can still be friends aka "onboard"
You have a site to do - limited space/storage making logistics cost prohibitive. No parking available on or off site.
Neighbour has oodles of space available.
Are you going to rent some of their space?
LuckyThirteen said:
I'm making the point that absolutely zero compensation for the affected party has been discussed.
For me, that's quite rude
No, what you did was suggest the OP reward a neighbour who is putting themselves out to be difficult with a payment of £400 pw for up to 2 years - that is the daftest thing I have read on here in a long time.For me, that's quite rude
This smacks of someone who has made a daft suggestion in a post and then has to run with it just because the alternative is to admit they weren't thinking straight when they posted it.
981Boxess said:
No, what you did it suggest the OP reward a neighbour who is putting themselves out to be difficult with a payment of £400 pw for up to 2 years - that is the daftest thing I have read on here in a long time.
This smacks of someone who has made a daft suggestion in a post and then has to run with it just because the alternative is to admit they weren't thinking straight when they posted it.
If you read further and subsequent posts you'll see the suggestion was to make the point.This smacks of someone who has made a daft suggestion in a post and then has to run with it just because the alternative is to admit they weren't thinking straight when they posted it.
Which, a good few on here agree with. Greasing wheels isn't daft. It's what developers do everyday of the week. Why should this be different?
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