Smart meters. Wish you hadn't?
Poll: Smart meters. Wish you hadn't?
Total Members Polled: 599
Discussion
Condi said:
Ultimately those who remain on fixed price contracts, ie those who don't want a smart meter!
You are missing a massive caveat on that assumption.Corrected = "those who have a very high overnight energy usage and don't want a dual tarrif".
If you are doing big EV miles and are not on a banded/timed tarrif then that's your own lookout, regardless of meter type.
I can't believe there are 10,000's of high mileage EV users out there charging on high/peak tarrifs. Anyone with an EV and high mileage will alread be looking at every tarrif possibility.
Regular energy users, like me (who don't have an EV) have absolutely no way of shaping their energy usage timing to take advantage of cheaper night time energy other than storage heaters, and I have gas. So the argument for smart meters enabling super duper night tarrifs is very specifically targetted at heavy EV users, or those with expensive storage battery systems. No one else uses loads of power overnight domestically.
Of course when everyone has an EV and they all want to charge overnight....... things will change :-)
Currently a smart meter offers me absolutely nothing more than I already get, save taking the readings each month. So why on earth would i open myself to quite probably being punitively charged for using power when I actually want it, when I can just say no and see what develops?
btw - the comment about "I'm being given free power as it's sunny and windy for the next two days" really made me smile. You do know the exact opposite is coming when everyone wants to cook dinner at lunch time over holidays, Xmas etc? Bit like Tesco Clubcards really, and all the fools who think they are saving money.
Edited by Griffith4ever on Tuesday 26th March 19:53
XCP said:
PF62 said:
Seems rather odd to go through a lengthy complaints process (five months or more?) for what *you* know to be a faulty meter, rather than use the far simpler and quicker faulty meter process.
it's only about 10 days since the last engineers visit. I am hoping ( naively perhaps) that the fact that it is now transmitting means there can be some resolution at the suppliers end. After 5 months another week or two doesn't make much difference!PF62 said:
XCP said:
PF62 said:
Seems rather odd to go through a lengthy complaints process (five months or more?) for what *you* know to be a faulty meter, rather than use the far simpler and quicker faulty meter process.
it's only about 10 days since the last engineers visit. I am hoping ( naively perhaps) that the fact that it is now transmitting means there can be some resolution at the suppliers end. After 5 months another week or two doesn't make much difference!
Unless there's some calibration performed remotely , but I didn't think so.
Edited by The Three D Mucketeer on Tuesday 26th March 20:26
Griffith4ever said:
You are missing a massive caveat on that assumption.
Corrected = "those who have a very high overnight energy usage and don't want a dual tarrif".
If you are doing big EV miles and are not on a banded/timed tarrif then that's your own lookout, regardless of meter type.
Regular energy users, like me (who don't have an EV) have absolutely no way of shaping their energy usage timing to take advantage of cheaper night time energy other than storage heaters, and I have gas. So the argument for smart meters enabling super duper night tarrifs is very specifically targetted at heavy EV users, or those with expensive storage battery systems. No one else uses loads of power overnight domestically.
It's got nothing to do with using a large amount overnight, necessarily. In summer the cheapest prices will be when it's sunny, which appears to put a hole in your argument. Corrected = "those who have a very high overnight energy usage and don't want a dual tarrif".
If you are doing big EV miles and are not on a banded/timed tarrif then that's your own lookout, regardless of meter type.
Regular energy users, like me (who don't have an EV) have absolutely no way of shaping their energy usage timing to take advantage of cheaper night time energy other than storage heaters, and I have gas. So the argument for smart meters enabling super duper night tarrifs is very specifically targetted at heavy EV users, or those with expensive storage battery systems. No one else uses loads of power overnight domestically.
Anyone who doesn't use a lot between 4 and 7pm will save, and it's not hard to avoid that time without changing much. Put the dishwasher on at 8pm rather than 6pm. Do the washing at 9am on a weekend rather than 5pm on a Tuesday.
It's clear you don't understand the range of tariffs available and how with a smart meter you can chose something which is best for you. If you want a fixed price, fine, if you think you'll save with a flexible tariff then that is an option for you. That flexibility is saving people money, and also helping to flatten out the demand curve by giving people an incentive when power is cheapest and lowest carbon intensity.
By not changing my behaviour at all my bills are about 35% lower than on the price cap. No heavy overnight usage, no EV, no batteries.
PF62 said:
Why would you want it transmitting given you had previously said it was a faulty meter and was recording incorrectly?
The engineer said that it is working but adjustments must be made at the suppliers end, so that what is now being recorded as off peak, is accurately recorded as peak use. I suspect this is what is wrong at the moment. Hence the ludicrously low peak figure. He agreed.According to the engineer this is a problem that can be resolved by the supplier at their end. Previously it was not transmitting data at all.
it's only a week since I sent the photo of the readings. The clock is ticking and if not resolved soon I shall do via the suggested route.
As I said a few more days aren't going to make any difference.
XCP said:
PF62 said:
Why would you want it transmitting given you had previously said it was a faulty meter and was recording incorrectly?
The engineer said that it is working but adjustments must be made at the suppliers end, so that what is now being recorded as off peak, is accurately recorded as peak use. I suspect this is what is wrong at the moment. Hence the ludicrously low peak figure. He agreed.According to the engineer this is a problem that can be resolved by the supplier at their end. Previously it was not transmitting data at all.
it's only a week since I sent the photo of the readings. The clock is ticking and if not resolved soon I shall do via the suggested route.
As I said a few more days aren't going to make any difference.
PF62 said:
If that is the issue then personally I would be checking what data www.n3rgy.com is showing for your meter.
Thank you. I'll try tomorrow.Condi said:
<snip>
Anyone who doesn't use a lot between 4 and 7pm will save, and it's not hard to avoid that time without changing much. Put the dishwasher on at 8pm rather than 6pm. Do the washing at 9am on a weekend rather than 5pm on a Tuesday.
<snip>
I fear you have a very simplistic view of this.Anyone who doesn't use a lot between 4 and 7pm will save, and it's not hard to avoid that time without changing much. Put the dishwasher on at 8pm rather than 6pm. Do the washing at 9am on a weekend rather than 5pm on a Tuesday.
<snip>
Our washing is always done in the morning, so it's dry (or nearly dry come evening).
We don't have a dishwasher.
The biggest changes we'd have to make is to turn off our electric heating and not cook before 7pm.
As I stated in my previous post(s), expecting people to go cold (in winter) and hungry due to the application of punitive tariffs is unrealistic and probably unworkable for the vast majority of people.
But of course, this is clearly how the energy companies plan to make up for lost revenue due to the heavy discounts elsewhere.
And as for it being to reduce peak usage, well perhaps those with EVs should be put on to a timed supply* which prevents charging between 4 and 7pm.
- and if peak usage is that much of an issue, then this should be applied to public chargers as well.
TonyRPH said:
I fear you have a very simplistic view of this.
As I stated in my previous post(s), expecting people to go cold (in winter) and hungry due to the application of punitive tariffs is unrealistic and probably unworkable for the vast majority of people.
But of course, this is clearly how the energy companies plan to make up for lost revenue due to the heavy discounts elsewhere.
And as for it being to reduce peak usage, well perhaps those with EVs should be put on to a timed supply* which prevents charging between 4 and 7pm.
The tariffs are not punitive, nor are they discounted, there are good reasons why wholesale prices are considerably higher at peak times than other times, all the flexible tariffs do is reflect the price of the energy you're using. It's something most customers have never had to think about, and there will be fixed tariffs going forwards for those who don't want to think about it, but for those who can be flexible then they can take advantage of the cheaper prices at other times. As I stated in my previous post(s), expecting people to go cold (in winter) and hungry due to the application of punitive tariffs is unrealistic and probably unworkable for the vast majority of people.
But of course, this is clearly how the energy companies plan to make up for lost revenue due to the heavy discounts elsewhere.
And as for it being to reduce peak usage, well perhaps those with EVs should be put on to a timed supply* which prevents charging between 4 and 7pm.
As for "preventing people" from charging at peak times, this has been proposed as an emergency measure by network operators, but if you offer people an incentive to charge when power is cheap, but they want to charge when it's expensive that is their choice. The whole thing is about offering options to customers, but invariable it is heading in a direction whereby the energy you use will better reflect the cost of producing it, which I think is a good thing.
Condi said:
Griffith4ever said:
You are missing a massive caveat on that assumption.
Corrected = "those who have a very high overnight energy usage and don't want a dual tarrif".
If you are doing big EV miles and are not on a banded/timed tarrif then that's your own lookout, regardless of meter type.
Regular energy users, like me (who don't have an EV) have absolutely no way of shaping their energy usage timing to take advantage of cheaper night time energy other than storage heaters, and I have gas. So the argument for smart meters enabling super duper night tarrifs is very specifically targetted at heavy EV users, or those with expensive storage battery systems. No one else uses loads of power overnight domestically.
It's got nothing to do with using a large amount overnight, necessarily. In summer the cheapest prices will be when it's sunny, which appears to put a hole in your argument. Corrected = "those who have a very high overnight energy usage and don't want a dual tarrif".
If you are doing big EV miles and are not on a banded/timed tarrif then that's your own lookout, regardless of meter type.
Regular energy users, like me (who don't have an EV) have absolutely no way of shaping their energy usage timing to take advantage of cheaper night time energy other than storage heaters, and I have gas. So the argument for smart meters enabling super duper night tarrifs is very specifically targetted at heavy EV users, or those with expensive storage battery systems. No one else uses loads of power overnight domestically.
Anyone who doesn't use a lot between 4 and 7pm will save, and it's not hard to avoid that time without changing much. Put the dishwasher on at 8pm rather than 6pm. Do the washing at 9am on a weekend rather than 5pm on a Tuesday.
It's clear you don't understand the range of tariffs available and how with a smart meter you can chose something which is best for you. If you want a fixed price, fine, if you think you'll save with a flexible tariff then that is an option for you. That flexibility is saving people money, and also helping to flatten out the demand curve by giving people an incentive when power is cheapest and lowest carbon intensity.
By not changing my behaviour at all my bills are about 35% lower than on the price cap. No heavy overnight usage, no EV, no batteries.
I'll look into it - I'm just struggling to believe you can install a smart meter, not change your behaviour, and save 35%. Seems way too easy and I want to know the catch.
The ast google result on that question, is from the CAB:
"A smart meter won't automatically save you money
You'll have to be proactive to reduce your energy costs. The best way to do this is to use the digital 'in-home' display that you'll be offered with a smart meter to keep track of how much energy you're using. You can then try to reduce it."
... which I don't doubt, but as a 2 person household, there isn't anything significant we can change. I want my coffee when I want it, and my workshop needs to be in action from 10am till 4 ish. I have to work. My fridge freezer needs to be on all the time, and I want my dinner at 7 :-) We have an energy efficient washing machine which only runs 3 times a week, and a heat pump dryer which is so cheap its almost free to run. Other than that, I just cant' control our energy usage, so, I just can't see a benefit of a meter showing me what I'm using. I can get that from a £30 power usage bluetooth clamp on the meter live.
Griffith4ever said:
Oh I don't mind a "hole in my argument" - I'm not here to "win" something. I'm all ears and happy to be shown I'm wrong.
I'll look into it - I'm just struggling to believe you can install a smart meter, not change your behaviour, and save 35%. Seems way too easy and I want to know the catch.
The ast google result on that question, is from the CAB:
"A smart meter won't automatically save you money
You'll have to be proactive to reduce your energy costs. The best way to do this is to use the digital 'in-home' display that you'll be offered with a smart meter to keep track of how much energy you're using. You can then try to reduce it."
... which I don't doubt, but as a 2 person household, there isn't anything significant we can change. I want my coffee when I want it, and my workshop needs to be in action from 10am till 4 ish. I have to work. My fridge freezer needs to be on all the time, and I want my dinner at 7 :-) We have an energy efficient washing machine which only runs 3 times a week, and a heat pump dryer which is so cheap its almost free to run. Other than that, I just cant' control our energy usage, so, I just can't see a benefit of a meter showing me what I'm using. I can get that from a £30 power usage bluetooth clamp on the meter live.
Currently, they need to 'sell' smart meters.I'll look into it - I'm just struggling to believe you can install a smart meter, not change your behaviour, and save 35%. Seems way too easy and I want to know the catch.
The ast google result on that question, is from the CAB:
"A smart meter won't automatically save you money
You'll have to be proactive to reduce your energy costs. The best way to do this is to use the digital 'in-home' display that you'll be offered with a smart meter to keep track of how much energy you're using. You can then try to reduce it."
... which I don't doubt, but as a 2 person household, there isn't anything significant we can change. I want my coffee when I want it, and my workshop needs to be in action from 10am till 4 ish. I have to work. My fridge freezer needs to be on all the time, and I want my dinner at 7 :-) We have an energy efficient washing machine which only runs 3 times a week, and a heat pump dryer which is so cheap its almost free to run. Other than that, I just cant' control our energy usage, so, I just can't see a benefit of a meter showing me what I'm using. I can get that from a £30 power usage bluetooth clamp on the meter live.
That means there are incentives to have them in the form of tariiffs which treat smart meter users well.
Together with Octopus gaming the market, and the way the market is currently going, it's a very good deal for some people.
In the long run there is limited potential for mass beahvioural change, beyond that, it's a zero sum game?
The costs get shared out among the customers somehow.
The programme is asad indictment of the state of British engineering.
Possibly overtaking Bowman radio as the biggest comms project embarrassment?
Griffith4ever said:
I'll look into it - I'm just struggling to believe you can install a smart meter, not change your behaviour, and save 35%. Seems way too easy and I want to know the catch.
The catch, if you will, is where the price risk sits. When you are on a fixed price contract the energy company agrees to supply you that energy at a given price, irrespective of where the wholesale price is on that day. They'll buy some in advance and some closer to time. They also have to make assumptions around when you're going to be using that energy, with the evening being the most expensive part of the day. If you use a lot there and much less at other times you're probably not a very profitable customer, as they'll be paying a lot to buy that power. This is offset against energy usage at other times when prices are cheaper. They're also exposed to longer term price drivers like gas price or whatever. With a flexible tariff then instead of the energy company taking that risk I am. The price could double between today and tomorrow and I have to pay the higher price tomorrow. If I use a lot of electric across the evening the high cost of that is passed straight back to me. Equally if I use lots of cheaper electric then I benefit from the savings of using power when it's cheaper. On windy and sunny days when renewable output is high then power is cheap. On cold winter nights it's expensive. If you understand that and are comfortable with it, then there is no catch.
OutInTheShed said:
Currently, they need to 'sell' smart meters.
That means there are incentives to have them in the form of tariiffs which treat smart meter users well.
Together with Octopus gaming the market, and the way the market is currently going, it's a very good deal for some people.
In the long run there is limited potential for mass beahvioural change, beyond that, it's a zero sum game?
The costs get shared out among the customers somehow.
The programme is asad indictment of the state of British engineering.
Possibly overtaking Bowman radio as the biggest comms project embarrassment?
This makes no sense. There is no "gaming the market", the price is simply the wholesale price, plus other costs, plus some profit, plus a lot for the 4-7pm time because usage across there is when TNOUS is calculated. That means there are incentives to have them in the form of tariiffs which treat smart meter users well.
Together with Octopus gaming the market, and the way the market is currently going, it's a very good deal for some people.
In the long run there is limited potential for mass beahvioural change, beyond that, it's a zero sum game?
The costs get shared out among the customers somehow.
The programme is asad indictment of the state of British engineering.
Possibly overtaking Bowman radio as the biggest comms project embarrassment?
It's also not a zero sum game, it's about making everything more efficient. If you have 24 people, each with a 1kw device they want to use, that is 24kwh of power required. By far the cheapest way to generate that is have everyone use their device for 1 hour, and have a small 1kw engine running 24/7. It get's hot, is efficient, is small so lower cost to build, etc. The least efficient way is to have everyone use their devices at once, then you need to run a 24kw engine for 1 hour - not only does it require a much bigger engine, but also it has to start from cold, then only run for a short period of time, before shutting down again.
By giving price signals to customers the idea is to flatten out the demand curve, as this allows better utilisation of the energy we produce from renewables and also allows the thermal plant to operate in the cheapest and most efficient way, rather than bringing on a whole load of power stations for 4 hours across the evening and having them sat doing nothing for the other 20 hours of the day.
Condi said:
This makes no sense. There is no "gaming the market", the price is simply the wholesale price, plus other costs, plus some profit, plus a lot for the 4-7pm time because usage across there is when TNOUS is calculated.
It's also not a zero sum game, it's about making everything more efficient. If you have 24 people, each with a 1kw device they want to use, that is 24kwh of power required. By far the cheapest way to generate that is have everyone use their device for 1 hour, and have a small 1kw engine running 24/7. It get's hot, is efficient, is small so lower cost to build, etc. The least efficient way is to have everyone use their devices at once, then you need to run a 24kw engine for 1 hour - not only does it require a much bigger engine, but also it has to start from cold, then only run for a short period of time, before shutting down again.
By giving price signals to customers the idea is to flatten out the demand curve, as this allows better utilisation of the energy we produce from renewables and also allows the thermal plant to operate in the cheapest and most efficient way, rather than bringing on a whole load of power stations for 4 hours across the evening and having them sat doing nothing for the other 20 hours of the day.
(my bold)It's also not a zero sum game, it's about making everything more efficient. If you have 24 people, each with a 1kw device they want to use, that is 24kwh of power required. By far the cheapest way to generate that is have everyone use their device for 1 hour, and have a small 1kw engine running 24/7. It get's hot, is efficient, is small so lower cost to build, etc. The least efficient way is to have everyone use their devices at once, then you need to run a 24kw engine for 1 hour - not only does it require a much bigger engine, but also it has to start from cold, then only run for a short period of time, before shutting down again.
By giving price signals to customers the idea is to flatten out the demand curve, as this allows better utilisation of the energy we produce from renewables and also allows the thermal plant to operate in the cheapest and most efficient way, rather than bringing on a whole load of power stations for 4 hours across the evening and having them sat doing nothing for the other 20 hours of the day.
Flattening the demand curve is impossible. There will always be demand peaks at specific times of the day, regardless of pricing.
People need to do stuff at specific times of the day - you are suggesting that instead of everyone having their evening meals between the traditional meal times of 6pm and 7pm, that they should instead spread their meal times across a much wider span.
This will simply not work (or possibly for a tiny, tiny percentage of the population).
Controlling demand like this is a pipe dream....
TonyRPH said:
Condi said:
This makes no sense. There is no "gaming the market", the price is simply the wholesale price, plus other costs, plus some profit, plus a lot for the 4-7pm time because usage across there is when TNOUS is calculated.
It's also not a zero sum game, it's about making everything more efficient. If you have 24 people, each with a 1kw device they want to use, that is 24kwh of power required. By far the cheapest way to generate that is have everyone use their device for 1 hour, and have a small 1kw engine running 24/7. It get's hot, is efficient, is small so lower cost to build, etc. The least efficient way is to have everyone use their devices at once, then you need to run a 24kw engine for 1 hour - not only does it require a much bigger engine, but also it has to start from cold, then only run for a short period of time, before shutting down again.
By giving price signals to customers the idea is to flatten out the demand curve, as this allows better utilisation of the energy we produce from renewables and also allows the thermal plant to operate in the cheapest and most efficient way, rather than bringing on a whole load of power stations for 4 hours across the evening and having them sat doing nothing for the other 20 hours of the day.
(my bold)It's also not a zero sum game, it's about making everything more efficient. If you have 24 people, each with a 1kw device they want to use, that is 24kwh of power required. By far the cheapest way to generate that is have everyone use their device for 1 hour, and have a small 1kw engine running 24/7. It get's hot, is efficient, is small so lower cost to build, etc. The least efficient way is to have everyone use their devices at once, then you need to run a 24kw engine for 1 hour - not only does it require a much bigger engine, but also it has to start from cold, then only run for a short period of time, before shutting down again.
By giving price signals to customers the idea is to flatten out the demand curve, as this allows better utilisation of the energy we produce from renewables and also allows the thermal plant to operate in the cheapest and most efficient way, rather than bringing on a whole load of power stations for 4 hours across the evening and having them sat doing nothing for the other 20 hours of the day.
Flattening the demand curve is impossible. There will always be demand peaks at specific times of the day, regardless of pricing.
People need to do stuff at specific times of the day - you are suggesting that instead of everyone having their evening meals between the traditional meal times of 6pm and 7pm, that they should instead spread their meal times across a much wider span.
This will simply not work (or possibly for a tiny, tiny percentage of the population).
Controlling demand like this is a pipe dream....
I've said before short term there are incentives that favour the well off (and to be frank don't need these savings) but sooner or later. as in when everybody has smart meters, the carrot will be withdrawn, there will be much fewer suppliers, little competition as regards switching. It'll go back to a cartel where the winners will NOT be the consumers but the shareholders.
Unless of course it goes back to being nationalised - I'm not a fan of privatisation but in this case it could work?
semi-rant over
Edit: I'm a Tory in case that matters.
TonyRPH said:
(my bold)
Flattening the demand curve is impossible. There will always be demand peaks at specific times of the day, regardless of pricing.
People need to do stuff at specific times of the day - you are suggesting that instead of everyone having their evening meals between the traditional meal times of 6pm and 7pm, that they should instead spread their meal times across a much wider span.
This will simply not work (or possibly for a tiny, tiny percentage of the population).
Controlling demand like this is a pipe dream....
Of course there will always be periods of higher and lower demand, but the more demand you can shift away from peak periods towards other times then the more efficient the system becomes. If you give people an economic incentive to change when they use power they will, but up to now it's not something anyone has thought about because they've paid a fixed price irrespective of when it was used. For example, putting the dishwasher on at 9pm instead of 6pm, doing the washing at a weekend instead of at 5pm on a Tuesday. With smart plugs and such like you could schedule the fridge to shut off at 4pm and come back on at 7pm - big commercial enterprises are already doing this, chilled warehouses etc - but there has never been any incentive for domestic customers to bother. Flattening the demand curve is impossible. There will always be demand peaks at specific times of the day, regardless of pricing.
People need to do stuff at specific times of the day - you are suggesting that instead of everyone having their evening meals between the traditional meal times of 6pm and 7pm, that they should instead spread their meal times across a much wider span.
This will simply not work (or possibly for a tiny, tiny percentage of the population).
Controlling demand like this is a pipe dream....
Offer people cheaper power for making a few little changes and you'd be surprised how they respond.
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