Detached Victorian renovation, London.
Discussion
Thanks Paralla. Frankly, putting UPVC windows into this lovely old house would have been a crime against taste.
Someone else did a recent renovation of a Victorian in the street, and has out (no doubt expensive) UPVC sash windows in. They are finished in a black foil - in short, the owners did their very best to do something that would be suitable and commensurate with the building.
I can tell they are uPVC from the way the frames reflect light and their thickness, and the trickle vents, required for stupid building regulations that do not understand that these houses breathe just fine anyway.
And it makes my teeth itch.
Someone else did a recent renovation of a Victorian in the street, and has out (no doubt expensive) UPVC sash windows in. They are finished in a black foil - in short, the owners did their very best to do something that would be suitable and commensurate with the building.
I can tell they are uPVC from the way the frames reflect light and their thickness, and the trickle vents, required for stupid building regulations that do not understand that these houses breathe just fine anyway.
And it makes my teeth itch.
Edited by Harry Flashman on Tuesday 5th December 12:26
I am always wary of putting double glazing in an old house...in my experience it has caused new areas of condensation and damp to appear. Particularly on the inside of windows at the cold side of the house (North facing walls) and in the attic where rising warm air that can’t escape condenses on roof felt. Just something to keep an eye on the first year or so, and if there’s an issue add ventilation or a dehumidifier.
That's not really to do with double glazing as such - it's to do with ventilation.
I have quite a lot of experience here, as I have double glazed three period properties. The trick is to allow the house to breathe elsewhere. You should never go airtight as these houses need to allow airflow to keep all the wooden bits dry and damp free. Many folk slap solid insulation under rafters or floors, trapping condensation and leading to bigger problems later on.
Double glazed windows are absolutely fine, as long as air (and water vapour) can still circulate. And all your bathrooms, laundry and kitchen needs decent (I use humidistat controlled) extraction - if this water cannot go somewhere, it will end up on cold surfaces like the windows. The problem would actually be worse with single glazing as the single pane will be at the outside temperature.
We will have a big problem with condensation as we have a cellar full of water at the moment, and will do until summer. I am investigating ways to deal with this - dehumidifier running constantly is probably the way. I am thinking of installing a sump pump, but as this is a constant problem due to winter groundwater being higher, and me not being able to fix the cellar tanking until Christmas, the pump would be running constantly,
I have quite a lot of experience here, as I have double glazed three period properties. The trick is to allow the house to breathe elsewhere. You should never go airtight as these houses need to allow airflow to keep all the wooden bits dry and damp free. Many folk slap solid insulation under rafters or floors, trapping condensation and leading to bigger problems later on.
Double glazed windows are absolutely fine, as long as air (and water vapour) can still circulate. And all your bathrooms, laundry and kitchen needs decent (I use humidistat controlled) extraction - if this water cannot go somewhere, it will end up on cold surfaces like the windows. The problem would actually be worse with single glazing as the single pane will be at the outside temperature.
We will have a big problem with condensation as we have a cellar full of water at the moment, and will do until summer. I am investigating ways to deal with this - dehumidifier running constantly is probably the way. I am thinking of installing a sump pump, but as this is a constant problem due to winter groundwater being higher, and me not being able to fix the cellar tanking until Christmas, the pump would be running constantly,
Finally finished doing our living room recently, very much inspired by your threads HF. I can confirm that F&B is truly hateful stuff 
I've thought about double glazing our sash windows as well, but the building's listed and with a wood-burner and aga now installed it's much, much more cozy in the winter than it was.
Thanks again for taking the time to keep this updated - it's a brilliant read
I've thought about double glazing our sash windows as well, but the building's listed and with a wood-burner and aga now installed it's much, much more cozy in the winter than it was.
Thanks again for taking the time to keep this updated - it's a brilliant read
Harry Flashman said:
and the trickle vents, required for stupid building regulations that do not understand that these houses breathe just fine anyway.
Not required by regs for replacement- just has to be like-for-like.Trickle vents are only needed if the existing windows had them. So your neighbours could have omitted if they were replacing original wooden.
I think a big part of it is London Tax. Whoever comes to quote sees the property and has pretty good idea of what its worth, this must influence their quotes. When I was looking, none of the companies I looked into published fixed prices on their web sites. They bang on about each job being different and wanting to quote each job individually, I don't buy it, I think they quote as high as they think they can get away with based on the property value.
Thankfully ours is in a conservation area (yes, even in Vauxhall) so the neichbours aren't allowed to put in uPVC windows, uPVC front porches or dormer windows. The council has banned anything hideous on the front elevation. It's a very rare instance where Lambeth Council and myself see eye to eye.
Thankfully ours is in a conservation area (yes, even in Vauxhall) so the neichbours aren't allowed to put in uPVC windows, uPVC front porches or dormer windows. The council has banned anything hideous on the front elevation. It's a very rare instance where Lambeth Council and myself see eye to eye.
As paralla says, it’s a combination of thing, and definitely a London Tax element.
Whilst my job cost a lot, it was a lot cheaper than most of the big companies wanted to do the same work. It was about a third what I was quoted to replace the windows entire – frame and sashes.
10 windows have cost £10,600 to do. £7,000 of this is labour – the rest is glass, materials, fittings etc. This is only for refurbishing sashes – you could probably add 50% to this had I needed completely new sashes, and tripled it had I needed new sashes and new frames. Not every window is the same size – so I can assume that the big ones would be more than £1k, the small ones less. This works out as roughly the same cost as replacing them with UPVC, or possibly a bit less (some of these windows are huge – 2m tall x 1m wide).
The labour really is the killer here. Ed (our window guy, and a specialist heritage carpenter) has been working in the house, so I have watched him. And he has trimmed, shaped and finished the sashes to an exceptional degree, taken the old frames to bits, fitted new pulleys, weights and cords and fitted everything back so that the windows run beautifully. I can attest to this being a shedload of work.
I would suggest that, conversely, the labour involved in measuring the windows, manufacturing complete frame/sash units off site, and then putting them in would be much easier than what he has done. Making a wooden sash offsite is relatively easy if you have an automated workshop, and fitting the resultant unit is no more difficult than fitting a UPVC unit. It’s not really restoration, it’s replacement. Yet these guys charge an absolute fortune – unjustifiably charging for the hand-finished labour that I am seeing with my restoration.
I may have paid Ed a lot, but I genuinely feel that I have got real value for money. He’ll be doing our front door too – again restoration, and fitting of new stained glass panels, locks and door furniture.
Whilst my job cost a lot, it was a lot cheaper than most of the big companies wanted to do the same work. It was about a third what I was quoted to replace the windows entire – frame and sashes.
10 windows have cost £10,600 to do. £7,000 of this is labour – the rest is glass, materials, fittings etc. This is only for refurbishing sashes – you could probably add 50% to this had I needed completely new sashes, and tripled it had I needed new sashes and new frames. Not every window is the same size – so I can assume that the big ones would be more than £1k, the small ones less. This works out as roughly the same cost as replacing them with UPVC, or possibly a bit less (some of these windows are huge – 2m tall x 1m wide).
The labour really is the killer here. Ed (our window guy, and a specialist heritage carpenter) has been working in the house, so I have watched him. And he has trimmed, shaped and finished the sashes to an exceptional degree, taken the old frames to bits, fitted new pulleys, weights and cords and fitted everything back so that the windows run beautifully. I can attest to this being a shedload of work.
I would suggest that, conversely, the labour involved in measuring the windows, manufacturing complete frame/sash units off site, and then putting them in would be much easier than what he has done. Making a wooden sash offsite is relatively easy if you have an automated workshop, and fitting the resultant unit is no more difficult than fitting a UPVC unit. It’s not really restoration, it’s replacement. Yet these guys charge an absolute fortune – unjustifiably charging for the hand-finished labour that I am seeing with my restoration.
I may have paid Ed a lot, but I genuinely feel that I have got real value for money. He’ll be doing our front door too – again restoration, and fitting of new stained glass panels, locks and door furniture.
Edited by Harry Flashman on Tuesday 5th December 15:47
To be honest with you, sash wondows are a total anachronism. I replaced the windows in my flat (also in a Victorian House) with high end UPVC tilt and turn windows. They have central horizontal glazing bars to give the superficial apperance of sash windows, and they do actually look pretty good - the flat is on the second and third floors of the building, so dyou don't really study the windows close-up from outside. The windows are excellent in operation - have lasted 9 years so far with no maintenance issues, are totally quiet, wonderfully energy efficient and work really, really well.
I just could not bring myself to fit similar to this house though, for some reason. Had this been a 1930's or later house, I would not have hesitated to replace the windows with proper, modern, tech (which is in fact exactly what I did with our last house, built in 1938)
I just could not bring myself to fit similar to this house though, for some reason. Had this been a 1930's or later house, I would not have hesitated to replace the windows with proper, modern, tech (which is in fact exactly what I did with our last house, built in 1938)
Busterhighmen said:
Just want to say that your house looks amazing, that sunken bath tub is what dreams are made of.
I originally joined the forums after stumbling across one of your tales, and seeing your beautiful Morgan. I think I envy your life slightly..
Hah! Thanks! Sadly the Morgan is gone...and most bad behaviour these days is in the company of my wife, rather than random, erm, professional dancers. I originally joined the forums after stumbling across one of your tales, and seeing your beautiful Morgan. I think I envy your life slightly..
Don't think I've even been to a proper club in about a year. Plenty of interior design shows though
I am old.Edited by Harry Flashman on Tuesday 5th December 14:21
Harry Flashman said:
Ed (our window guy, and a specialist heritage carpenter) has been working in the house, so I have watched him. And he has trimmed, shaped and finished the sashes to an exceptional degree, taken the old frames to bits, fitted new pulleys, weights and cords and fitted everything back so that the windows run beautifully. I can attest to this being a shedload of work.
Ed D, Brentford?Harry Flashman said:
Refurbished sashes. These are original, but have had moderm thin-spaced argon double glazing, in low emmissivity toughened glass, installed.They have also had new parting beads, brushes, and weights to make them totally draught free and so that they open and close smoothly.
They also have much more hardcore security. The thieves broke into our house by snapping a basic lever sashlock and levering with enough force that the restrictor bolts were ripped out. The "new" windows have locking sashlocks and a number of rim-locking locks all around the windows, as well as restrictor bolts to allow restricted opening for ventilation.
This was not a cheap job. No sir. Wallet feels a a little abused.
These are white on the inside and black on the outside. The newly black external windows look very nice indeed - they have painted the frames now, and the black looks very smart against the London stock brick of the house. They give the house a much more sophisticated, period look than white paint on the external windows.
Are you sure they are Argon filled? Reason I ask is that typically thin spaced double glazing is Krypton filled, it's much more efficient than Argon in reduced airspace. The thinner the airspace the less effective Argon can be.They also have much more hardcore security. The thieves broke into our house by snapping a basic lever sashlock and levering with enough force that the restrictor bolts were ripped out. The "new" windows have locking sashlocks and a number of rim-locking locks all around the windows, as well as restrictor bolts to allow restricted opening for ventilation.
This was not a cheap job. No sir. Wallet feels a a little abused.
These are white on the inside and black on the outside. The newly black external windows look very nice indeed - they have painted the frames now, and the black looks very smart against the London stock brick of the house. They give the house a much more sophisticated, period look than white paint on the external windows.
Edited by Harry Flashman on Tuesday 5th December 12:24
https://windowguru.wordpress.com/2014/08/29/air-vs...
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