Renovating an old farmhouse and living on the Pennines
Discussion
mikeiow said:
Brilliant thread, OP, no idea how I missed spotting this earlier!
‘#like (in lieu of no like button
)
Making a mini break with a couple of nights nearby first: taking in Tintern and a castle for fun!
That's the way to do it ‘#like (in lieu of no like button
)deadtom said:
How easy do you think it is for someone with zero experience but who is reasonably practical to teach themselves basic pointing with lime mortar on stone walls?
I have no idea, but we have just booked ourselves onto a day next year for an introduction to lime pointing with these folk: https://www.carringtonlime.co.uk/coursesMaking a mini break with a couple of nights nearby first: taking in Tintern and a castle for fun!
At the other end of the scale we did a pottery Gonk tealight holder making evening the other night, it was good fun.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Now that appeals, i'll follow that up, thanks.Interesting transmission on the Subaru too.
I'd kind of set my heart on a Freelander or Range Rover, but not seeing a lot of love for them here. As I'll have no-where to fix a car for a while we do need a lot of reliability for at least a year or two.
The RR looks the part though, I have fond memories of JC blatting around in one on TG, that's when they were new though.
The others are so bland and I've never owned a normal or boring car so it's difficult for me to lay out money on something so soulless.
It is mainly for her use though and she cares about different things so i'll have satisfy myself with a digger
We'll stick what we have through this Winter and go looking next Spring/Summer as perhaps prices and demand will have dropped a little.
Terry is a bit ill so heading off to do a sizeable job on it today, more on that later when i've despatched a very sick looking rabbit i'm just eying up on the banking there.
I'd kind of set my heart on a Freelander or Range Rover, but not seeing a lot of love for them here. As I'll have no-where to fix a car for a while we do need a lot of reliability for at least a year or two.
The RR looks the part though, I have fond memories of JC blatting around in one on TG, that's when they were new though.
The others are so bland and I've never owned a normal or boring car so it's difficult for me to lay out money on something so soulless.
It is mainly for her use though and she cares about different things so i'll have satisfy myself with a digger
We'll stick what we have through this Winter and go looking next Spring/Summer as perhaps prices and demand will have dropped a little.
Terry is a bit ill so heading off to do a sizeable job on it today, more on that later when i've despatched a very sick looking rabbit i'm just eying up on the banking there.
A rather dark grey and wet day today so time for a catchup whilst I work on reducing the log mountain.
Then I'll get my waterproofs on and unload yesterdays cargo of stuff.
Comet Neowise.
The Air Arms S400 with a scope is a great piece of kit, said bunny had advanced myxomatosis and was quickly put out of its misery with a single very accurate shot. Not a pleasant job, but I took it down to the lower field so somethings could make good use of it. There'll be nowt but skin and bone left by now, much like the one the Stoat captured and ate:
At least it'll fit in it's hole now, nothing gets wasted here you know
There is a thing, if you wanted Red Kites in your area how would you go about it? Contact the RSPB to see if they were interested? I think there is only Magpies, Crows and Rooks here which eat carrion. The other meat eaters prefer it fresh. Maybe as there is only really diseased rabbits (and only at this moment) there wouldn't be enough food to go round.
As I type the temps have dropped from 3 to .2 and it's started to snow again, I don't think it'll settle though. I feel the need for a home weather station if anyone has any recommendations, it's not something I know anything about, but it does interest me, especially living up here in the clouds.
I think I have an eye for a half decent pic, just not the equipment, the skill to use it, nor the dedication! As this place lends itself very well to a photographer maybe in years to come I'll invest some time and money into it. Until then you'll have to put up with hastily taken mobile shots and some from S&A photography. On their page are more of the Falconry pics (plus many more!) and he did a full write up about the birds too.
I've interspersed some of their local shots here to break up the text and lack of my pictures. They surfaced as we were chatting about the recent clear nights, the ISS has been doing it's rounds at a sensible hour and 3 very prominent planets have been visible in a line to the South.
ISS
I complained to the council about the state of the roads and they've been out and thrown some tarmac where the edges of the road had gone missing. They haven't addressed the other bits as i'm assuming it's out of budget, I haven't had time to chase them about that yet. I had an hour to spare the other night so threw some gravel into the worst of the holes on the track into here.
Some interesting suggestions on 4x4s for me to follow up, thanks for your input. Most of the questions are answered in the thread already.
Lots of research to do on that which I didn't have time to do when buying the Terrano. It transpires they came with two types of rear LSD and Terry has the weaker type fitted. It still has 3 times the grip of any 2wd car, but has got completely stuck on the odd occasion. I did once set the wheels spinning in some mud on tickover, got out of it and walked around watching what happened.
Sure enough just one wheel at the rear was turning and one stuck, so the diff is now open and no longer locking. I lifted it up to confirm by spinning the wheels manually too. I'd previously changed the oil in it before I knew this was an issue, I put the correct LSD oil in, but the old oil had a metallic sheen to it and some sizeable metal chunks dropped out too.
I wouldn't say I was great with people, but can spot a decent person from a crap one a mile off. I'd been hanging around online in Terry circles and had noted a chap called Jason who struck me as being both knowledgeable, very genuine and lived near where i'd worked and am still packing the workshop up. He sometimes came from down in West Yorks up to the Lakes to do some camping and a bit of Greenlaning, i'd pondered over inviting him here to do a bit, but at the moment it wasn't possible as I wasn't here a lot of the time.
Then he posted up he was breaking a Terrano so I enquired about a rear axle, he said he was selling one with a decent diff and I asked if he wanted to fit it. He said he would so there we were in my old workshop the other day.
They're heavy beasts, the 3 ton lift had picked it up ok, but i'd dismantled that and taken it away, the remaining 2.5 tonner wouldn't lift it more than a foot so we worked off the floor. Better than being outside though.
He did most of the work, I just helped with the bits he struggled with and in 3hrs we were done. £170 changed hands and Tezza has a working rear diff, unstoppable now!
He would have reduced the price on an exchange basis, but my old axle has ABS, the replacement doesn't and the components are not interchangeable. I fancy having a poke around inside it to see what has happened and if it can be repaired easily enough.
Out of interest you can buy front locking LSDs for these too, they started off as 'Lokkas', but aren't available atm, someone in Russia has copied them and knocks them out as 'Blokkas', you've got to be pretty hardcore to fit one, but the unit itself isn't expensive.
Then I'll get my waterproofs on and unload yesterdays cargo of stuff.
Comet Neowise.
The Air Arms S400 with a scope is a great piece of kit, said bunny had advanced myxomatosis and was quickly put out of its misery with a single very accurate shot. Not a pleasant job, but I took it down to the lower field so somethings could make good use of it. There'll be nowt but skin and bone left by now, much like the one the Stoat captured and ate:
At least it'll fit in it's hole now, nothing gets wasted here you know
There is a thing, if you wanted Red Kites in your area how would you go about it? Contact the RSPB to see if they were interested? I think there is only Magpies, Crows and Rooks here which eat carrion. The other meat eaters prefer it fresh. Maybe as there is only really diseased rabbits (and only at this moment) there wouldn't be enough food to go round.
As I type the temps have dropped from 3 to .2 and it's started to snow again, I don't think it'll settle though. I feel the need for a home weather station if anyone has any recommendations, it's not something I know anything about, but it does interest me, especially living up here in the clouds.
I think I have an eye for a half decent pic, just not the equipment, the skill to use it, nor the dedication! As this place lends itself very well to a photographer maybe in years to come I'll invest some time and money into it. Until then you'll have to put up with hastily taken mobile shots and some from S&A photography. On their page are more of the Falconry pics (plus many more!) and he did a full write up about the birds too.
I've interspersed some of their local shots here to break up the text and lack of my pictures. They surfaced as we were chatting about the recent clear nights, the ISS has been doing it's rounds at a sensible hour and 3 very prominent planets have been visible in a line to the South.
ISS
I complained to the council about the state of the roads and they've been out and thrown some tarmac where the edges of the road had gone missing. They haven't addressed the other bits as i'm assuming it's out of budget, I haven't had time to chase them about that yet. I had an hour to spare the other night so threw some gravel into the worst of the holes on the track into here.
Some interesting suggestions on 4x4s for me to follow up, thanks for your input. Most of the questions are answered in the thread already.
Lots of research to do on that which I didn't have time to do when buying the Terrano. It transpires they came with two types of rear LSD and Terry has the weaker type fitted. It still has 3 times the grip of any 2wd car, but has got completely stuck on the odd occasion. I did once set the wheels spinning in some mud on tickover, got out of it and walked around watching what happened.
Sure enough just one wheel at the rear was turning and one stuck, so the diff is now open and no longer locking. I lifted it up to confirm by spinning the wheels manually too. I'd previously changed the oil in it before I knew this was an issue, I put the correct LSD oil in, but the old oil had a metallic sheen to it and some sizeable metal chunks dropped out too.
I wouldn't say I was great with people, but can spot a decent person from a crap one a mile off. I'd been hanging around online in Terry circles and had noted a chap called Jason who struck me as being both knowledgeable, very genuine and lived near where i'd worked and am still packing the workshop up. He sometimes came from down in West Yorks up to the Lakes to do some camping and a bit of Greenlaning, i'd pondered over inviting him here to do a bit, but at the moment it wasn't possible as I wasn't here a lot of the time.
Then he posted up he was breaking a Terrano so I enquired about a rear axle, he said he was selling one with a decent diff and I asked if he wanted to fit it. He said he would so there we were in my old workshop the other day.
They're heavy beasts, the 3 ton lift had picked it up ok, but i'd dismantled that and taken it away, the remaining 2.5 tonner wouldn't lift it more than a foot so we worked off the floor. Better than being outside though.
He did most of the work, I just helped with the bits he struggled with and in 3hrs we were done. £170 changed hands and Tezza has a working rear diff, unstoppable now!
He would have reduced the price on an exchange basis, but my old axle has ABS, the replacement doesn't and the components are not interchangeable. I fancy having a poke around inside it to see what has happened and if it can be repaired easily enough.
Out of interest you can buy front locking LSDs for these too, they started off as 'Lokkas', but aren't available atm, someone in Russia has copied them and knocks them out as 'Blokkas', you've got to be pretty hardcore to fit one, but the unit itself isn't expensive.
Edited by Evoluzione on Tuesday 7th December 13:16
macp said:
Absolutely brilliant thread OP. You should maybe think about writing a book in a similar style to 'driving over lemons'. An absolute favourite book of mine. Having read more than once basically its an English guy and his wife buying a remote farm in Spain. And slowly renovating it. Just some of your words & thoughts reminded of this book although not remotely in the same land mass as you. Anyway forgive my ramblings.
Thanks, I joked to my OH the other day that I should put my scribblings to better use and write a book, but don't think i'm good enough or people would buy it. It came off the back of sitting here for a few hrs putting just one post together.There was also a similar thing done by one of the long term owners of Tan Hill, that was a pleasant enough read.
Panda is too small and basic. As we age I think we want something a bit more spacious and barge like, I want something with a bit of heft and a large torquey diesel engine.
Jeep Cherokees are under the spotlight at the moment, there seems to be anything to suit any pocket and a massive amount and range to look at. I've still got to investigate the drivetrain on them though, have no idea what the system is, whether full time, part time 4wd, locking diffs etc.
The OH always wanted an open top Merc, but I think it'll be a while before she can have something so frivolous. I think she'll approve of the M Class as do I, It's the current favourite at the moment.
Maybe my approach to LSDs is a bit outdated. I don't think they're need much anymore, from what i'm learning grip is found using the ABS to hold a slipping wheel and send the power to the one with the most grip.
Some interesting weather forecast for today:
After the last lot of snow and ice 10 days ago I could have filled a whole post with various pics of wrecked cars and stone walls with impressive holes in them. There is still a quite heavily impacted Golf still parked up opposite where it hit, I don't know why it's been left for so long. We awoke to the vague sound of sirens nearby somewhere when we opened a window, the house is tucked away halfway down a hill so you just get the odd noise drifting in on the wind sometime. When I went out later on I found this:
No idea how they managed that, it's on a relatively easy straight stretch of road.
Maybe my approach to LSDs is a bit outdated. I don't think they're need much anymore, from what i'm learning grip is found using the ABS to hold a slipping wheel and send the power to the one with the most grip.
Some interesting weather forecast for today:
After the last lot of snow and ice 10 days ago I could have filled a whole post with various pics of wrecked cars and stone walls with impressive holes in them. There is still a quite heavily impacted Golf still parked up opposite where it hit, I don't know why it's been left for so long. We awoke to the vague sound of sirens nearby somewhere when we opened a window, the house is tucked away halfway down a hill so you just get the odd noise drifting in on the wind sometime. When I went out later on I found this:
No idea how they managed that, it's on a relatively easy straight stretch of road.
Thanks for the positive remarks, I'm still pondering over that book comment. My writing style is a bit sombre at the moment as it reflects my mood. It's mainly because I'm still attached to my old life and emptying the old workshop still, nearly there now though, then full steam ahead here and hopefully with some more humour. I'm just sat looking at my lathe sat on the trailer summoning some energy and courage to brave the weather and get it off. It's my fingers which suffer the worst by going cold, especially the one I damaged in a stupid little accident back in early Spring. The nerves have been damaged and it goes cold and grey quite easily. I need to find some gloves which are warm and waterproof I think.
No we don't own any land that goes to the road, ours is around us and down to the beck at the bottom of the hill.
It did cross my mind too as to if they got away with it, who pays for the damage etc.
That and the majority of moorland here is 'Estate land', it's owned by a local chap whose family have been here for a long time, possibly hundreds of years as I've seen mention of his ancestors in a history book. The old derelict farmhouse I pictured earlier is his.
Bannister is the name, they started up Boundary Mills and he still has a large controlling share. The land owned is vast, i've heard it starts at the Hebden Bridge area and goes North, but i'm not sure how far up or across.
Interestingly Roger Bannister was a relation too, he of the sub 4 minute mile.
No we don't own any land that goes to the road, ours is around us and down to the beck at the bottom of the hill.
It did cross my mind too as to if they got away with it, who pays for the damage etc.
That and the majority of moorland here is 'Estate land', it's owned by a local chap whose family have been here for a long time, possibly hundreds of years as I've seen mention of his ancestors in a history book. The old derelict farmhouse I pictured earlier is his.
Bannister is the name, they started up Boundary Mills and he still has a large controlling share. The land owned is vast, i've heard it starts at the Hebden Bridge area and goes North, but i'm not sure how far up or across.
Interestingly Roger Bannister was a relation too, he of the sub 4 minute mile.
Escort3500 said:
Evoluzione said:
Thanks for the positive remarks, I'm still pondering over that book comment. My writing style is a bit sombre at the moment as it reflects my mood. It's mainly because I'm still attached to my old life and emptying the old workshop still, nearly there now though, then full steam ahead here and hopefully with some more humour. I'm just sat looking at my lathe sat on the trailer summoning some energy and courage to brave the weather and get it off. It's my fingers which suffer the worst by going cold, especially the one I damaged in a stupid little accident back in early Spring. The nerves have been damaged and it goes cold and grey quite easily. I need to find some gloves which are warm and waterproof I think.
No we don't own any land that goes to the road, ours is around us and down to the beck at the bottom of the hill.
It did cross my mind too as to if they got away with it, who pays for the damage etc.
That and the majority of moorland here is 'Estate land', it's owned by a local chap whose family have been here for a long time, possibly hundreds of years as I've seen mention of his ancestors in a history book. The old derelict farmhouse I pictured earlier is his.
Bannister is the name, they started up Boundary Mills and he still has a large controlling share. The land owned is vast, i've heard it starts at the Hebden Bridge area and goes North, but i'm not sure how far up or across.
Interestingly Roger Bannister was a relation too, he of the sub 4 minute mile.
Thanks. At least you don’t have to put up with the hassle of getting it repaired. Hopefully it will be however; I love the stone walling in this part of the world. No we don't own any land that goes to the road, ours is around us and down to the beck at the bottom of the hill.
It did cross my mind too as to if they got away with it, who pays for the damage etc.
That and the majority of moorland here is 'Estate land', it's owned by a local chap whose family have been here for a long time, possibly hundreds of years as I've seen mention of his ancestors in a history book. The old derelict farmhouse I pictured earlier is his.
Bannister is the name, they started up Boundary Mills and he still has a large controlling share. The land owned is vast, i've heard it starts at the Hebden Bridge area and goes North, but i'm not sure how far up or across.
Interestingly Roger Bannister was a relation too, he of the sub 4 minute mile.
In other stone wall banter, from around the Halifax area Northwards up to around Colne maybe there was a different way of creating a stone wall, it was known as Vaccary walling and consisted of large slabs stood upright next to one another like teeth or headstones. They're hundreds of years old and some still exist.
I wonder exactly how they were cutting stone by machine in the early 1800s? I'm a bit suspicious they were and if they did I doubt it was by blade (or other methods) as it is now. I wonder if it was by some kind of powered chisel that went up and down?
As you'll know the make up of stone is completely different all over the country and indeed the World, this is down to how it was created.
Unless it was very special (Stonehenge etc) you worked with what you had to hand. In the immediate area here a lot of it is soft to medium strength shale, this means it's in layers so it splits really easily. That is perhaps one reason why some Vaccary walls are slimmer than others - if you couldn't split the stone in length then you shoved what you had into the ground and called it a job done. It could have been down to what you were enclosing too, whether an animal or simply a boundary for ownership. A cow could snap off some thin slabs if it leant against them, not so much a sheep or a field of corn.
If I walk around my house it's been built using different stone dependent on which elevation you're looking at. This is solely due to saving money. They used the cheaper material (shale) to the rear and one gable so it looks better from the view you normally see it. I think also the weather was taken into consideration, the two elevations which get the worst of the weather being walled in what looks like Millstone grit to me.
As you'll know the make up of stone is completely different all over the country and indeed the World, this is down to how it was created.
Unless it was very special (Stonehenge etc) you worked with what you had to hand. In the immediate area here a lot of it is soft to medium strength shale, this means it's in layers so it splits really easily. That is perhaps one reason why some Vaccary walls are slimmer than others - if you couldn't split the stone in length then you shoved what you had into the ground and called it a job done. It could have been down to what you were enclosing too, whether an animal or simply a boundary for ownership. A cow could snap off some thin slabs if it leant against them, not so much a sheep or a field of corn.
If I walk around my house it's been built using different stone dependent on which elevation you're looking at. This is solely due to saving money. They used the cheaper material (shale) to the rear and one gable so it looks better from the view you normally see it. I think also the weather was taken into consideration, the two elevations which get the worst of the weather being walled in what looks like Millstone grit to me.
Happy Christmas 
One for the Lime learners
As you will read I'm getting deeper into the World of lime, If you're really not into this I can understand you skipping this post, it's big and that's all it's about so you won't be missing anything else.
If you're thinking of doing or having lime pointing done then it's quite interesting, important even.
As you know I'm not Lord Lime from Lyme Regis, i'm having to review this material a bit as things may have moved on since I last used it some 15 - 20yrs ago when it had its first revival.
My posts here are to raise awareness, point out what to look out for, to pass on what i'm doing and discovering. It's a vast topic with lots of differing opinions, information and plenty of misinformation.
It might seem strange that things may have actually moved on in the world of Lime in the last 15 - 20 yrs when this material is hundreds of years old! But the fact is we're rediscovering it after something like a 70 - 100 year break which we had from it when OPC (Ordinary Portland Cement) took over. Because of this nobody in the building trade was brought up with it and lots of knowledge has been lost or just misplaced.
Back then they were using it because it did the job and it did it well, it always had done for hundreds of years. The vast majority, if not all probably didn't know why, they didn't have the equipment we have available to us today to be able to analyse things to work out what is happening to the Nth degree. They will have known by using their senses and localised knowledge how to mix it, what with and apply it etc. Methods and uses varied up and down the country, but it appears they all used Quicklime.
If you do venture into this field you'll find one of the most divisive topics is whether or when to use an NHL (Naturally Hydraulic Lime) or Quicklime.
NHL is split into 3 grades over a spectrum of hardness which confusingly overlap each other. So you can have a (top end) 3.5 (medium strength) which is as hard as a (lower end) 5 (the toughest), but you will not know what you have, it'll just be labelled 2, 3.5 or 5 and it varies from one manufacturer to another and from one bag to the next too. Amusingly there is an NHL which will go off in less than a minute! You might wonder how the heck they get it out of the bucket and off the trowel, but the key is to not mix it neat. It sets very quick and hard and is for use on projects such as dam or sea walls etc.
NHL is easy to mix though, just add it to your chosen aggregates and some water, mix it up (or even buy a dry premixed bag). Maybe give it half an hour whilst you do a bit of prepping and off you go.
Quicklime on the other hand requires the addition of water to slake it. This is a chemical reaction and the mixture immediately boils and bubbles furiously so safety equipment is needed; goggles, leather gloves, all bare skin well covered. The ferocity is dependent on what temperature it was fired at. If it was really high (circa 120'c) then it'll pop and throw pieces out like bullets. Don't take this lightly, it will burn and very seriously if it gets in your eyes.
It then needs leaving for X amount of time before being used (X is dependent on what you are using it for). In it's pure form it's softer and less hardwearing than an NHL. You can mix it with sand before adding water, this does reduce the aggressiveness of the reaction which is started by the damp in the sand reacting with the lime.
This is known as 'Hotmixing' or 'Hotlime'.
So there you have the two main different limes (there is a third), then the lines can get really blurred as you can put natural additives into each to give them different properties! Don't get Hydraulic lime mixed up with Hydrated lime, the latter, the third I don't think has much use to us.
You also need to think about colour. I am no fan of bright and gaudy limes. Unless the wall had it before, or needs it (in your eyes) then think carefully, maybe do some samples. You can completely change or indeed ruin the look of a house or wall if you put the wrong colour on. Many amateurs do as they lack finesse because their eye is on other things. There can be nothing worse than spending 9 months of your spare time repointing the house just to stand back and ask 'What the f
k have I done?' as it looks like something off of Hansel and Gretel or whatever.
All limes are some shade of white, the colour comes from what you mix it with, the sands, and other natural additives.
There are quite a few 'Professional' people out there preaching about lime, but you don't have to go too far before you realise they really don't know all that much and are just repeating other what other people spouted, often their mistakes too so be really careful what you read or hear. Apply some rational thinking.
I read recently that after wood is burned coal is produced, this is then put into the mortar mix as it holds moisture. Not only did the author not know the difference between coal, charcoal and ash (which are all mortar additives), but also that neither coal nor charcoal are porous or will hold moisture. He was preaching about learning and getting it wrong I think from one of, or THE biggest names out there, a certain Mr Copsey.
Now he claims we should be still building (modern walls) with lime and cannot understand actually how a modern wall works, he thinks its bonkers that water could be allowed into a cavity, drain through and out of the bottom. This indicates he has a misunderstanding of how some things work. If you know how a car door or a UPVC door/window handle water you'll know where i'm coming from.
The designers of these three things know full well they can't keep water out, so what they do is accept it'll get through part way then provide it a route back out at the bottom and outside.
I also found a pic of a building on his site which he claims they changed the colour of the stone when it was re-pointed because it dried out. It took me all of two minutes to find a pic of it pre-lime pointing to see it hadn't changed at all. See earlier comment on how pointing colour effects the whole look of a building.
So we weren't off to a good start, yet I think he knows some valuable stuff about lime, but it makes you wonder how much these people really do know when they spout rubbish like that. It's a bridge too far, stick with what you know. Newer buildings were designed with OPC in mind, they don't need lime. There is an Eco argument in favour of lime, but that's a whole different, large and very difficult subject.
I'm suspicious of him as not only is he anti-OPC, but also anti-NHL.
Nobody is infallible however so I sat through a 3hr YT video of one of his talks because i'm trying to work out whether I should use an NHL or a quicklime for pointing. He makes quite a good case for the use of Quicklime and I have discovered it was used on my house originally too and am willing to agree it was widely used on all buildings back in the day. I also got his book.
This is my house walls mortar:
From what i've learned and experienced so far you don't get lumps of lime (see the white bits?) ln an NHL mix.
This is an interesting one:
It's from the old mill building i've just vacated in Batley. I was off for me fish n chips for the last time when I spotted it so got some pics. I must have walked past it a hundred times and never noticed. Buildings like this are some of the best places to go and look at how this was done. It's over well over 100yrs old and because it's industrial no-one has spent or wasted any money on it. Well It didn't need anything doing to it, it's stood the test of time quite well.
My eyes are getting old so I couldn't see the beautiful (! oh God i've got it bad) detail until I got home and put it on a bigger screen. I did pull some of the big black bits out though and drew on the wall with them they are so soft. I'm pretty sure the white bits are lime.
So is it coal or charcoal? Well neither, look at the pitting in it, I think it's slag left over from firing or burning. Here is where a wider experience and looking at everything in detail helps again. Concrete or clinker building blocks are (or were) made from a mix of power station waste and OPC. Modern concrete blocks actually have crushed glass in them. Trust me they really do, if you see one that's been washed and/or left out in the weather for a while you'll see it in there. See what they are doing is using waste material to bulk up the blocks and mortar because it's free and to no ill effect, only a positive effect. It's not a new thing either!
So what about the black slag in the lime mortar? Well it's a free bulking agent, but it also gives compressive strength to the mix.
When you're walling up with OPC you can only do X amount of courses per day before it becomes unstable because the mix hasn't gone off. It's even worse with quicklime as it takes a while to stiffen. So not only do the black bits make the mix more durable to the weather, they also give it compressive strength and they're for free so result in less expensive materials being used.
If you think about the height of a mill wall, the weight it has to carry, the size of stones used to build it and the softness of lime then it makes perfect sense. These guys weren't daft, they had hundreds of years of experience to draw on and it wasn't from Karen off of Facebook.
I think it'll have ash in it too because of the grey colour.
If you look at some mill walls that don't have these in you'll see the joints at the bottom are tighter than those at the top because of the weight over time.
I think I posted a pic earlier of my house wall close up, you could see the mason had put small pieces of blue slate in the beds of the quoins, this was for exactly the same reason - to keep them level so they could carry on walling.
I'll show you houses with Quoins which are coming apart quite drastically due to slipping on OPC because they weren't dowelled and have not stuck together. We'll deal with stickyness soon.
It seems (if you believe the spiel) that NHLs are now considered by some experts incorrect for the use of pointing with softer stones and bricks and that they damage walls like OPC does.
Whilst I think it's true they didn't use it for walling pointing back in the day, i'm not sure I believe it's totally incorrect now. The inference is it's too hard and gets harder over time like cement whereas Quicklime doesn't.
I posted a pic of a wall earlier i'd repointed about 15yrs ago in NHL, i'm hoping to go back sometime soon to examine it a bit closer. When I took the pic a few months ago I hadn't learned all of this so didn't look carefully enough, it certainly looked fine to me though, even when zooming in closer on that pic so I'm fairly certain it hasn't been damaged nor has the pointing cracked or shrunk as people are saying it does.
Might be an interesting discussion If they see me; 'Hello do you remember me? I'm just checking your wall is ok'
'What?'
Stickiness is an interesting property. You may think a sand and cement mix is sticky, but it actually isn't in comparison to a quicklime mortar mix. If you handled them side by side on a trowel you would notice a fair difference. Does this matter? It certainly does.
Bricklayers have always battled with it so additives are put in to make the mix more workable, washing up liquid was used at one time, but more professional liquids are widely available. Initially it's so the mix stays on the trowel and on the ends of the bricks while you're handling them without sliding off. The other evidence that modern mortars lack stickiness is that bricks need keying to make them stick to it. These are in the form of frogs and holes in the bricks or even by wetting the brick. A bond is created by the weight of the wall forcing the two together hydraulically. If you simply put a top course of plain featureless bricks onto a wall you'll be able to knock them off by hand at any time in the future. SBR and PVAs are used to bond renders to walls as they can and do come loose otherwise.
This means that S&C is often not fully bonded, apart from the obvious visual cracks it also has less visible minor fissures and micro cracks because it's very brittle.
Bricklayers are human, not every single brick has a 100% waterproof jacket of mortar around it. How many S&C rendered walls do we see with cracks in them and it hanging off? Pointing falling off walls?
This is why we use OPC with cavity walls, water is known to go through. So just let it and then drain it out at the bottom.
What i'm saying here is cavity walls and modern masonry were either intended or just do work well with OPC, they don't need lime to function.
If you mix S&C and indeed an NHL in a bucket and let it stand the mix will start to let the water go, it'll sit on top in puddles. The mix is unable to retain all the water put in to activate it and make it useable. You have to keep knocking it up as you're using it.
Not so with Quicklime mortar. It holds water like a sponge when its added and it sticks like st. The setting process is totally different.
Hotlime mix can be used in Winter. Some say it warms the wall and stops it freezing, this is a load of old cobblers and should rightly be ridiculed. It's because of the way it dries (carbonates) and retains or uses moisture.
It appears to have some elasticity to it, if it cracks early on you can press or bash it back together. I've read about people being caught out and it showing freeze damage. Then going back some time later to find it's repaired itself.
It's certainly an important point to think about for me up here where it's a bit exposed. Having worked through many of our Winters it's fair to say that you don't stop dead at X date, then start work again come Spring. You do your best to carry on and find something else to do if and when it is completely unworkable. Back in the day it was the same, they didn't stop in Winter because of the lime as we have been led to believe.
I have just tested NHL for frost damage. I put some on and a few weeks later we were treated to some -4 conditions. Because of the still high water content it has indeed spalled and is flaking off.
See this is the important thing; this damage is caused by how much moisture is actually in the wall (all components therein), the actual moisture content of it. Whilst we're putting water into quicklimes to activate them they're dealing with this water in a completely different way.
Having said that I did know and work with a lovely chap called 'Ronnie the roofer' in Wortley, Leeds. He used to look and dress like Rod Stuart and did do the opposite to what most do - he'd pack up in Nov and bugger off with his family to Spain for something like 4 - 6 months every year. I was very envious of this.
We've been advised to not use lime in Winter, that was because we've been using NHLs since the lime revival began. It's as if an attempt was made to ween us off our cement by substituting it with something which was close. A halfway house if you will, but not the real deal. People are fearful of the dangers of Quicklime and you do have to be very careful with it. Not just when using it, but also storing it (away from water). Treat it like the Mogwai.
So yes i'm very cynical, yet on paper and in theory I've been converted. Hot mix lime mortar does seem to be what was used back then and I believe it's what should be re-used again on those same walls, so i'll be having a go with it.
Hopefully you're still with us and this has been of some use. It's been a bit of a lengthy post, but in actual fact this is just a brief overview with most of the salient points covered.
If you're intending to do anything with lime it's supremely important you consider whether to use an NHL or a Quicklime. Your supplier is highly likely to not know the differences to advise or may even want to palm you off with an NHL as they have it and it's safe and easy.
One for the Lime learners
As you will read I'm getting deeper into the World of lime, If you're really not into this I can understand you skipping this post, it's big and that's all it's about so you won't be missing anything else.
If you're thinking of doing or having lime pointing done then it's quite interesting, important even.
As you know I'm not Lord Lime from Lyme Regis, i'm having to review this material a bit as things may have moved on since I last used it some 15 - 20yrs ago when it had its first revival.
My posts here are to raise awareness, point out what to look out for, to pass on what i'm doing and discovering. It's a vast topic with lots of differing opinions, information and plenty of misinformation.
It might seem strange that things may have actually moved on in the world of Lime in the last 15 - 20 yrs when this material is hundreds of years old! But the fact is we're rediscovering it after something like a 70 - 100 year break which we had from it when OPC (Ordinary Portland Cement) took over. Because of this nobody in the building trade was brought up with it and lots of knowledge has been lost or just misplaced.
Back then they were using it because it did the job and it did it well, it always had done for hundreds of years. The vast majority, if not all probably didn't know why, they didn't have the equipment we have available to us today to be able to analyse things to work out what is happening to the Nth degree. They will have known by using their senses and localised knowledge how to mix it, what with and apply it etc. Methods and uses varied up and down the country, but it appears they all used Quicklime.
If you do venture into this field you'll find one of the most divisive topics is whether or when to use an NHL (Naturally Hydraulic Lime) or Quicklime.
NHL is split into 3 grades over a spectrum of hardness which confusingly overlap each other. So you can have a (top end) 3.5 (medium strength) which is as hard as a (lower end) 5 (the toughest), but you will not know what you have, it'll just be labelled 2, 3.5 or 5 and it varies from one manufacturer to another and from one bag to the next too. Amusingly there is an NHL which will go off in less than a minute! You might wonder how the heck they get it out of the bucket and off the trowel, but the key is to not mix it neat. It sets very quick and hard and is for use on projects such as dam or sea walls etc.
NHL is easy to mix though, just add it to your chosen aggregates and some water, mix it up (or even buy a dry premixed bag). Maybe give it half an hour whilst you do a bit of prepping and off you go.
Quicklime on the other hand requires the addition of water to slake it. This is a chemical reaction and the mixture immediately boils and bubbles furiously so safety equipment is needed; goggles, leather gloves, all bare skin well covered. The ferocity is dependent on what temperature it was fired at. If it was really high (circa 120'c) then it'll pop and throw pieces out like bullets. Don't take this lightly, it will burn and very seriously if it gets in your eyes.
It then needs leaving for X amount of time before being used (X is dependent on what you are using it for). In it's pure form it's softer and less hardwearing than an NHL. You can mix it with sand before adding water, this does reduce the aggressiveness of the reaction which is started by the damp in the sand reacting with the lime.
This is known as 'Hotmixing' or 'Hotlime'.
So there you have the two main different limes (there is a third), then the lines can get really blurred as you can put natural additives into each to give them different properties! Don't get Hydraulic lime mixed up with Hydrated lime, the latter, the third I don't think has much use to us.
You also need to think about colour. I am no fan of bright and gaudy limes. Unless the wall had it before, or needs it (in your eyes) then think carefully, maybe do some samples. You can completely change or indeed ruin the look of a house or wall if you put the wrong colour on. Many amateurs do as they lack finesse because their eye is on other things. There can be nothing worse than spending 9 months of your spare time repointing the house just to stand back and ask 'What the f
k have I done?' as it looks like something off of Hansel and Gretel or whatever.All limes are some shade of white, the colour comes from what you mix it with, the sands, and other natural additives.
There are quite a few 'Professional' people out there preaching about lime, but you don't have to go too far before you realise they really don't know all that much and are just repeating other what other people spouted, often their mistakes too so be really careful what you read or hear. Apply some rational thinking.
I read recently that after wood is burned coal is produced, this is then put into the mortar mix as it holds moisture. Not only did the author not know the difference between coal, charcoal and ash (which are all mortar additives), but also that neither coal nor charcoal are porous or will hold moisture. He was preaching about learning and getting it wrong I think from one of, or THE biggest names out there, a certain Mr Copsey.
Now he claims we should be still building (modern walls) with lime and cannot understand actually how a modern wall works, he thinks its bonkers that water could be allowed into a cavity, drain through and out of the bottom. This indicates he has a misunderstanding of how some things work. If you know how a car door or a UPVC door/window handle water you'll know where i'm coming from.
The designers of these three things know full well they can't keep water out, so what they do is accept it'll get through part way then provide it a route back out at the bottom and outside.
I also found a pic of a building on his site which he claims they changed the colour of the stone when it was re-pointed because it dried out. It took me all of two minutes to find a pic of it pre-lime pointing to see it hadn't changed at all. See earlier comment on how pointing colour effects the whole look of a building.
So we weren't off to a good start, yet I think he knows some valuable stuff about lime, but it makes you wonder how much these people really do know when they spout rubbish like that. It's a bridge too far, stick with what you know. Newer buildings were designed with OPC in mind, they don't need lime. There is an Eco argument in favour of lime, but that's a whole different, large and very difficult subject.
I'm suspicious of him as not only is he anti-OPC, but also anti-NHL.
Nobody is infallible however so I sat through a 3hr YT video of one of his talks because i'm trying to work out whether I should use an NHL or a quicklime for pointing. He makes quite a good case for the use of Quicklime and I have discovered it was used on my house originally too and am willing to agree it was widely used on all buildings back in the day. I also got his book.
This is my house walls mortar:
From what i've learned and experienced so far you don't get lumps of lime (see the white bits?) ln an NHL mix.
This is an interesting one:
It's from the old mill building i've just vacated in Batley. I was off for me fish n chips for the last time when I spotted it so got some pics. I must have walked past it a hundred times and never noticed. Buildings like this are some of the best places to go and look at how this was done. It's over well over 100yrs old and because it's industrial no-one has spent or wasted any money on it. Well It didn't need anything doing to it, it's stood the test of time quite well.
My eyes are getting old so I couldn't see the beautiful (! oh God i've got it bad) detail until I got home and put it on a bigger screen. I did pull some of the big black bits out though and drew on the wall with them they are so soft. I'm pretty sure the white bits are lime.
So is it coal or charcoal? Well neither, look at the pitting in it, I think it's slag left over from firing or burning. Here is where a wider experience and looking at everything in detail helps again. Concrete or clinker building blocks are (or were) made from a mix of power station waste and OPC. Modern concrete blocks actually have crushed glass in them. Trust me they really do, if you see one that's been washed and/or left out in the weather for a while you'll see it in there. See what they are doing is using waste material to bulk up the blocks and mortar because it's free and to no ill effect, only a positive effect. It's not a new thing either!
So what about the black slag in the lime mortar? Well it's a free bulking agent, but it also gives compressive strength to the mix.
When you're walling up with OPC you can only do X amount of courses per day before it becomes unstable because the mix hasn't gone off. It's even worse with quicklime as it takes a while to stiffen. So not only do the black bits make the mix more durable to the weather, they also give it compressive strength and they're for free so result in less expensive materials being used.
If you think about the height of a mill wall, the weight it has to carry, the size of stones used to build it and the softness of lime then it makes perfect sense. These guys weren't daft, they had hundreds of years of experience to draw on and it wasn't from Karen off of Facebook.
I think it'll have ash in it too because of the grey colour.
If you look at some mill walls that don't have these in you'll see the joints at the bottom are tighter than those at the top because of the weight over time.
I think I posted a pic earlier of my house wall close up, you could see the mason had put small pieces of blue slate in the beds of the quoins, this was for exactly the same reason - to keep them level so they could carry on walling.
I'll show you houses with Quoins which are coming apart quite drastically due to slipping on OPC because they weren't dowelled and have not stuck together. We'll deal with stickyness soon.
It seems (if you believe the spiel) that NHLs are now considered by some experts incorrect for the use of pointing with softer stones and bricks and that they damage walls like OPC does.
Whilst I think it's true they didn't use it for walling pointing back in the day, i'm not sure I believe it's totally incorrect now. The inference is it's too hard and gets harder over time like cement whereas Quicklime doesn't.
I posted a pic of a wall earlier i'd repointed about 15yrs ago in NHL, i'm hoping to go back sometime soon to examine it a bit closer. When I took the pic a few months ago I hadn't learned all of this so didn't look carefully enough, it certainly looked fine to me though, even when zooming in closer on that pic so I'm fairly certain it hasn't been damaged nor has the pointing cracked or shrunk as people are saying it does.
Might be an interesting discussion If they see me; 'Hello do you remember me? I'm just checking your wall is ok'
'What?'
Stickiness is an interesting property. You may think a sand and cement mix is sticky, but it actually isn't in comparison to a quicklime mortar mix. If you handled them side by side on a trowel you would notice a fair difference. Does this matter? It certainly does.
Bricklayers have always battled with it so additives are put in to make the mix more workable, washing up liquid was used at one time, but more professional liquids are widely available. Initially it's so the mix stays on the trowel and on the ends of the bricks while you're handling them without sliding off. The other evidence that modern mortars lack stickiness is that bricks need keying to make them stick to it. These are in the form of frogs and holes in the bricks or even by wetting the brick. A bond is created by the weight of the wall forcing the two together hydraulically. If you simply put a top course of plain featureless bricks onto a wall you'll be able to knock them off by hand at any time in the future. SBR and PVAs are used to bond renders to walls as they can and do come loose otherwise.
This means that S&C is often not fully bonded, apart from the obvious visual cracks it also has less visible minor fissures and micro cracks because it's very brittle.
Bricklayers are human, not every single brick has a 100% waterproof jacket of mortar around it. How many S&C rendered walls do we see with cracks in them and it hanging off? Pointing falling off walls?
This is why we use OPC with cavity walls, water is known to go through. So just let it and then drain it out at the bottom.
What i'm saying here is cavity walls and modern masonry were either intended or just do work well with OPC, they don't need lime to function.
If you mix S&C and indeed an NHL in a bucket and let it stand the mix will start to let the water go, it'll sit on top in puddles. The mix is unable to retain all the water put in to activate it and make it useable. You have to keep knocking it up as you're using it.
Not so with Quicklime mortar. It holds water like a sponge when its added and it sticks like s
t. The setting process is totally different.Hotlime mix can be used in Winter. Some say it warms the wall and stops it freezing, this is a load of old cobblers and should rightly be ridiculed. It's because of the way it dries (carbonates) and retains or uses moisture.
It appears to have some elasticity to it, if it cracks early on you can press or bash it back together. I've read about people being caught out and it showing freeze damage. Then going back some time later to find it's repaired itself.
It's certainly an important point to think about for me up here where it's a bit exposed. Having worked through many of our Winters it's fair to say that you don't stop dead at X date, then start work again come Spring. You do your best to carry on and find something else to do if and when it is completely unworkable. Back in the day it was the same, they didn't stop in Winter because of the lime as we have been led to believe.
I have just tested NHL for frost damage. I put some on and a few weeks later we were treated to some -4 conditions. Because of the still high water content it has indeed spalled and is flaking off.
See this is the important thing; this damage is caused by how much moisture is actually in the wall (all components therein), the actual moisture content of it. Whilst we're putting water into quicklimes to activate them they're dealing with this water in a completely different way.
Having said that I did know and work with a lovely chap called 'Ronnie the roofer' in Wortley, Leeds. He used to look and dress like Rod Stuart and did do the opposite to what most do - he'd pack up in Nov and bugger off with his family to Spain for something like 4 - 6 months every year. I was very envious of this.
We've been advised to not use lime in Winter, that was because we've been using NHLs since the lime revival began. It's as if an attempt was made to ween us off our cement by substituting it with something which was close. A halfway house if you will, but not the real deal. People are fearful of the dangers of Quicklime and you do have to be very careful with it. Not just when using it, but also storing it (away from water). Treat it like the Mogwai.
So yes i'm very cynical, yet on paper and in theory I've been converted. Hot mix lime mortar does seem to be what was used back then and I believe it's what should be re-used again on those same walls, so i'll be having a go with it.
Hopefully you're still with us and this has been of some use. It's been a bit of a lengthy post, but in actual fact this is just a brief overview with most of the salient points covered.
If you're intending to do anything with lime it's supremely important you consider whether to use an NHL or a Quicklime. Your supplier is highly likely to not know the differences to advise or may even want to palm you off with an NHL as they have it and it's safe and easy.
Edited by Evoluzione on Saturday 25th December 11:42
Thanks all
And thanks for the links on the warm waterproof gloves, I bought a couple of the cheaper ones and they've been a Godsend just lately.
Mikeiow you have no limits. Do the course, do the wall then decide whether to have a go on the house (if it needs it!). By that time you'll have gained lots of useful experience, knowledge and confidence.
You'll have to ask your tutor what they think of the NHL V Quicklime debate, see if they've noticed any damage caused by NHLs.
Also, if you have a coal or woodburner you could collect the ash and think about putting it into your wall mix. If you do I've got a link to a PDF online which goes into some detail about it.
I noticed the door mirror collection on the road outside was starting to build so set about having a tidy up:
I didn't have to walk further than 10metres to find those.
Winter is planting time for some things
At my old house i'd planted a few apple trees which we made cider from once a year, homemade cider is fantastic as you can make it just as you like it. In our case it was medium with a sour overtone and about 9%. Any cider you buy is surprisingly not anywhere near 100% apple juice, but ours always was.
We called in at a garden centre as we were passing for a Christmas tree and a few other (hopefully more permanent) trees. I got a few apple trees to see what they'll do, a Monkey Puzzle and some heathers. Some of the heathers were a very bright colour so they'd stand out on the embankment behind the house. It was only as we were loading them into the van that K noticed the matching coloured spray paint on the pots.
Yes, they've actually been spray painted, Ffs, I can't believe I fell for it and nearly returned them for my money back
Like a few other high up places in the UK we were blessed with some amazing weather for two afternoons recently which gave rise to some equally good pictures. We awoke to this:
As the sun rose higher it began to burn it off:
I can't make up my mind which is the best of these two, sun behind bird feeder or to the side so here is both:
As the day wore on:
The low cloud was running below us like a river down the valley to the town where is sat over them.
Surprisingly the French Lavender is surviving, it's been covered in snow and down to -4, but still looks ok:
No question over the heathers, but Japonica and Holly are doing well too:
I knew some of the fields were absolutely siping and I was running a risk, but couldn't resist getting out in the sun. I loaded up Terry with trees, 'locally sourced compost', spade etc and set off to plant them. I was actually working in a T-shirt much of the time.
I've found a sunny, but sheltered corner near the stream to start 'the orchard'
I've chosen a random mix of varieties initially, to see how they go. I think it may be wise to do some research and perhaps find out if there is a certain type suited to this climate.
It looks like it might be a boggy spot, but surprisingly even at this time of the year it isn't. I've found the Soft Rushes there haven't managed to get a good hold for some reason and can be pulled out relatively easily. I ripped out a few, but will go back and do the rest later.
This is what £32 worth of Monkey puzzle tree looks like:
They tend to defy the wind and grow ramrod straight so this will be a good test for it
I hoped the sheep wouldn't nibble at the spiky 'leaves' but the buggers have already had a go and a couple of tips have gone missing. Annoyingly one was spat back out and on the ground, luckily they haven't found the centre one
Todays job was making a bit of fencing around it and here is where the piles of 'stuff' we've carted over come in useful. It's Christmas day and I have no problem laying my hands on Percy Sledge hammer, four posts, (sharpened on the saw) half a roll of galv wire fencing with bolt croppers to snip it to length and a packet of galv U nails.
Much of the ground down there seems well draining and Tezza had no problems getting about.
Not so halfway back, every time I went in I had to slow to go over some large rocks in the gateway, then as I tried to accelerate it just slowed to a halt and sunk every time.
I managed to get out and try again a few times, but eventually it was game over.
It's completely stuck there, I did go back later to try dig it out, but it's now even lower and the underside is sat on the mud.
I hope we don't get too much snow before I can get someone in to pull it out
And thanks for the links on the warm waterproof gloves, I bought a couple of the cheaper ones and they've been a Godsend just lately.
Mikeiow you have no limits. Do the course, do the wall then decide whether to have a go on the house (if it needs it!). By that time you'll have gained lots of useful experience, knowledge and confidence.
You'll have to ask your tutor what they think of the NHL V Quicklime debate, see if they've noticed any damage caused by NHLs.
Also, if you have a coal or woodburner you could collect the ash and think about putting it into your wall mix. If you do I've got a link to a PDF online which goes into some detail about it.
I noticed the door mirror collection on the road outside was starting to build so set about having a tidy up:
I didn't have to walk further than 10metres to find those.
Winter is planting time for some things
At my old house i'd planted a few apple trees which we made cider from once a year, homemade cider is fantastic as you can make it just as you like it. In our case it was medium with a sour overtone and about 9%. Any cider you buy is surprisingly not anywhere near 100% apple juice, but ours always was.
We called in at a garden centre as we were passing for a Christmas tree and a few other (hopefully more permanent) trees. I got a few apple trees to see what they'll do, a Monkey Puzzle and some heathers. Some of the heathers were a very bright colour so they'd stand out on the embankment behind the house. It was only as we were loading them into the van that K noticed the matching coloured spray paint on the pots.
Yes, they've actually been spray painted, Ffs, I can't believe I fell for it and nearly returned them for my money back
Like a few other high up places in the UK we were blessed with some amazing weather for two afternoons recently which gave rise to some equally good pictures. We awoke to this:
As the sun rose higher it began to burn it off:
I can't make up my mind which is the best of these two, sun behind bird feeder or to the side so here is both:
As the day wore on:
The low cloud was running below us like a river down the valley to the town where is sat over them.
Surprisingly the French Lavender is surviving, it's been covered in snow and down to -4, but still looks ok:
No question over the heathers, but Japonica and Holly are doing well too:
I knew some of the fields were absolutely siping and I was running a risk, but couldn't resist getting out in the sun. I loaded up Terry with trees, 'locally sourced compost', spade etc and set off to plant them. I was actually working in a T-shirt much of the time.
I've found a sunny, but sheltered corner near the stream to start 'the orchard'
I've chosen a random mix of varieties initially, to see how they go. I think it may be wise to do some research and perhaps find out if there is a certain type suited to this climate.
It looks like it might be a boggy spot, but surprisingly even at this time of the year it isn't. I've found the Soft Rushes there haven't managed to get a good hold for some reason and can be pulled out relatively easily. I ripped out a few, but will go back and do the rest later.
This is what £32 worth of Monkey puzzle tree looks like:
They tend to defy the wind and grow ramrod straight so this will be a good test for it
I hoped the sheep wouldn't nibble at the spiky 'leaves' but the buggers have already had a go and a couple of tips have gone missing. Annoyingly one was spat back out and on the ground, luckily they haven't found the centre oneTodays job was making a bit of fencing around it and here is where the piles of 'stuff' we've carted over come in useful. It's Christmas day and I have no problem laying my hands on Percy Sledge hammer, four posts, (sharpened on the saw) half a roll of galv wire fencing with bolt croppers to snip it to length and a packet of galv U nails.
Much of the ground down there seems well draining and Tezza had no problems getting about.
Not so halfway back, every time I went in I had to slow to go over some large rocks in the gateway, then as I tried to accelerate it just slowed to a halt and sunk every time.
I managed to get out and try again a few times, but eventually it was game over.
It's completely stuck there, I did go back later to try dig it out, but it's now even lower and the underside is sat on the mud.
I hope we don't get too much snow before I can get someone in to pull it out
monkfish1 said:
I cheated and used what these chaps call pre-mixed fat lime. https://www.lime.org.uk/products/lime/mortars.html
So i guess NOT NHL? But not sure how this compares to quick lime.
Yes it's lime putty and it depends on what you used it for and how you or they mixed it. Correct it's not an NHL.So i guess NOT NHL? But not sure how this compares to quick lime.
It's a premixed quicklime so it's safe for use by Joe Public, it's not as good as a Hotmix, but then is it doing the job? If it is then it doesn't matter what anyone says.
Now that aside this is generally what has happened in the past:
When we rediscovered lime we were offered options, but the two which were pushed were NHL and putty.
Everyone knows 3:1 by volume is the ideal mortar mix.
3 Sand/aggregate, 1 cement; perfect
3 " " 1NHL; perfect
Ditto 3 sand/aggregate: 1 powdered quicklime. Perfect.
Now here is where the wheels came off:
3 sand/aggregate: 1 lime putty; Wrong, it's too weak for many outside uses.
3 what? Volume? Weight? Just hang on, putty is wet so wtf do we do with that? All the other 3:1 were dry so it was measured by volume. Yet they mixed WET putty by volume
3:1 Quicklime as a powder is correct, but when it's already mixed and as a putty it's wrong. This is because (unlike OPC) it expands when it's introduced to water, so if you mix it 3:1 putty by volume it's likely closer to 5:1* by initial powdered volume.
Yet for years many didn't notice. Well it takes years for weather to take it's toll.
- I have to admit it's late at night and i've guessed at 5:1, hopefully you get the idea. It's like mixing metric up with imperial and assuming 5 means 5 inches, not 5 cm.
One thing I'd like to take issue with from their site is this:
"Golden Rule: The mortar should always be weaker than the fabric of the building (as it should be the sacrificial part of the construction – easier and cheaper to replace the mortar rather than the brick/ stone)."
Which is true, but to what degree?
It's an uneducated way out. They should almost match, one should not be too stronger/weaker than the other, it should be equal or very close, something like 100 to 98%.
If we go back and take a look at the pic of the mortar on the mill wall, it's not sacrificial. It's over 100yrs old and still there doing it's job untouched. That's because someone local knew the stone, they knew the mix so they made it on site to their recipe and they made it work. They had local knowledge and skill, but we don't have that so much now. Now someone in Cornwall is sending a lime mix to Yorkcestershire to be put on a wall they don't know the first thing about.
Edited by Evoluzione on Sunday 26th December 09:46
LocoBlade said:
Looks like you need to get yourself a winch for pulling Terry out of his predicaments
Yep, and a steel front bumper, mud tyres and lift kit.And a locking front diff
The bumper has taken a few knocks now as it's too low and fragile, the more hardcore make or buy steel ones with a bit more clearance and a gap for a winch.
Tyres are a medium range 'off road'. You can go to a full mud tyre which would have helped a lot. Plenty of big chunks of rubber with large gaps in between, even on the sidewalls.
I'm not that knowledgeable on winches, I don't know how long they are, or what you would attach one to in the middle of a field.
I did chat to a neighbour today who has an old 4x4 tractor, he said (and quite rightly) he'll need to get it on somewhere solid to be able to pull me out. He went onto say he's also been stuck a few times in that too. One time another farmer came to pull him out and failed. So they sent for a third guy and had all 3 connected to get out.
Then another neighbour said that the current 'Mother of all tractors' has so many computers on board it will pull anything out by analysing the situation using maths, logic, electronics and magic!
I'm suspecting if I have to go to those lengths it'll be cheaper to leave Terry there and buy another
mikeiow said:
Evoluzione said:
(snip]
Mikeiow you have no limits. Do the course, do the wall then decide whether to have a go on the house (if it needs it!). By that time you'll have gained lots of useful experience, knowledge and confidence.
You'll have to ask your tutor what they think of the NHL V Quicklime debate, see if they've noticed any damage caused by NHLs.
Also, if you have a coal or woodburner you could collect the ash and think about putting it into your wall mix. If you do I've got a link to a PDF online which goes into some detail about it.
Oh, I might have limits….but I suspect Mrs mikeiow might be quite handy Mikeiow you have no limits. Do the course, do the wall then decide whether to have a go on the house (if it needs it!). By that time you'll have gained lots of useful experience, knowledge and confidence.
You'll have to ask your tutor what they think of the NHL V Quicklime debate, see if they've noticed any damage caused by NHLs.
Also, if you have a coal or woodburner you could collect the ash and think about putting it into your wall mix. If you do I've got a link to a PDF online which goes into some detail about it.
I will make a note to ask about that. Our wall is quite light/sandy, & perhaps wouldn’t need ash? here’s one corner that looks in need of a little attention:
We did have that wall re-pointed perhaps 10-15 years ago…..a slightly worrying crack, but the place has been there for over 270 years, so fingers crossed…..
The insurance got too tricky (holiday home, thatched!) for our wood burner: now has a reasonably realistic fake wood burner….slightly sad, but way safer for guests!
Love the spray painted heather: a cunning plan!
What has it been pointed with? It looks like and probably is cement mortar which is naughty if it's got solid walls, but it looks to be coping ok so again, not much to worry about unless you think it isn't.
There are some white bits lower down in the mortar which i'd scratch with something like a steel blade or nail. If they're soft i'm wrong and it's lime, however I'm thinking they're bits of stone or grit, maybe some particles of quartz or similar.
If it's not showing any issues associated with the wrong pointing overall then I wouldn't be too worried at all.
It's really borderline. If you think it'll benefit and you fancy a go then as per above, go through the process and have a go at it.
You might find it quite relaxing and cathartic to be working with masonry and limes, I do so consider that too.
As far as colour and content go you'll find your own buildings genuine mortar colour behind that pointing and whatever remains of the original bedding mortar. Based on that and your own taste then colour your mortar accordingly.
An interesting groove or key in that bottom quoin btw, that indicates the stone was re-used from somewhere else perhaps, unless it was used to quarry the stone in the first place.
You're certainly going about it the right way: Course on lime pointing, practice on garden wall, move onto house wall if confident and it needs it. It couldn't be any better. As I said in an earlier post, you'll find lime pointing to be quite forgiving in comparison to OPC.
Get the basic tools and you're on your way, any questions, just ask.
Edited by Evoluzione on Sunday 26th December 09:37
Happy New Year to all PHers.
A piss poor pic taken at the turn of the year to start us off:
The field resembles the Battle of Passchendaele, the distant flashes, bangs and rumbles in the distance sound like it must have been.
You'll already know about when to strike it with the brush I think.
I don't know it it's actually possible to drive through some of this stuff at all in a 3 ton road car. The farmers have quadbikes which have wide tyres and are very light so don't sink.
From this article about the restoration of Haddon Hall in Derby:
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/r...
"Much of the work is done in the original way including a return to the use of lime mortar.
Stonemason Mr Eaton said: "One of the big problems is that hard cement has been covering the original stonework and trapped moisture, causing it to crumble.
New stonework will be able to breathe using lime mortars."
As wise old Ruskin said:
“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think, as we lay stone on stone, that a time is to come when those stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labour and wrought substance of them, 'See! This our fathers did for us.”
If you read back I covered tools. You don't have to spend a load on new stuff if you don't want, if you're savvy you can pick up older tools and they'll be as good if not better.
It's a Skimmia Rubella (we saved the label) and is lovely to see such colour flourishing in Winter, I think we'll buy some different types to plant out in the future.
Everytime I get stuck I can't help but think of what Arfur would have said. Terreeee!
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ucnzk
Sorry, it's an age thing.
As you'll read we got out in the end, with a combination of the above! And yes, making a mess is an issue, i've been back down today in my wellies and waterproofs pushing back the turf into the ruts and holes. Sheep don't eat mud.
The waffle boards either sunk out of sight, or were thrown backwards.
One of the guys i'd mentioned earlier from Terrano circles messaged me the other day. I think he wanted to get out for a bit like many of us do after the excesses of Christmas. Yeah drop by I said, but be warned the track to the upper fields and link to the lower is impassable and mine is stranded down there.
No problem says he, i've just fitted a winch so am looking to test it out. So we walked the land to get a feel for it, I joked if he went in there we'd be making him a bed up for the night, but he was eager to get stuck in - literally.
It's all downhill to get there so no problems as we slithered our way down, he perched on a solid bit and I chocked the wheels with some large stones.
He's owned that from it being 3 yrs old.
We jacked the front of mine up by using a farmers jack and some strops through the wheels, then dropped it onto waffle boards to make it a bit easier. Coupled up the winch and yanked it straight out.
If you can imagine a picture of a tiny dessert island with two 4x4s on it then that is indeed where we were then.
So we both left and tried to make it across, but both sunk very quickly. I walked back to the house and made up a basic ground anchor with some stuff I had lying around then walked back with it, a sledgehammer and a long steel pole.
I must apologise for the lack of pics and the poor ones we do have. When someone drops by to help you out you feel a bit of a dick running round taking pics of it instead of getting stuck in and there was a lot of physical work to do that day. Also it drizzled the whole time so impossible to get a good pic anyhow, the cameras tend to focus on the swirling drizzle.
I hammered the ground anchor in at about 45', but the winch kept pulling through the mud. We moved 1 metre per hour for the first two hrs then it got dark. It was just too soft and muddy.
We were however learning techniques and also the land. I could see odd undulations here and there indicating past drainage. A very slight and shallow ditch ran right across at one point, on one side it was siping, on the other it was relatively solid so we put the ground anchor in and then backed it up with the steel pole. It's about 5ft long and we bashed it in almost to the hilt.
To reach it we had to extend the winch with various ropes, strops, cargo straps, carabiners, shackles. You name it, we coupled it up. Once we'd got his free and past mine we tied the back of his to the front of mine and the winch pulled us both up the field! Near the end we got within roping distance of some trees so used those to pull us the last bit
Sad to say I didn't get a pic of that. I hadn't prepped myself for that kind of day, I started off with a bowl of muesli and didn't have time to eat for the rest of it. By 10.30pm were were both out, exhausted, covered in mud, but triumphant.
Earlier in the day his jacket was this colour:
Crap pictures aside at the end it looked like this:
So if you're ever in the West Yorks region, involved in some nasty road accident or a house fire and some Fireman called Jason turns up and tells you he owns a Terry (!) then relax. Because I can tell you for sure he's calm, collected, methodical and absolutely does not give up.
Possibly maybe because he doesn't want to spend the night with you, but nonetheless he gets the job done.
A piss poor pic taken at the turn of the year to start us off:
The field resembles the Battle of Passchendaele, the distant flashes, bangs and rumbles in the distance sound like it must have been.
AlmostUseful said:
Thread of the year contender for sure, started today and just got to the end.
Looking forward to following over the coming years to see how we get on with the renovation. Yes I said we, we’re all in this together now!
Well yes, the comments and tips have been very welcome and useful Looking forward to following over the coming years to see how we get on with the renovation. Yes I said we, we’re all in this together now!
Pistonsquirter said:
With my lime pointing it’s taken a while to find a decent churn brush for bashing it with afterwards, I think I’m currently using a travis Perkins one, which I cut the bristles down about 30% to make them stiffer, it seems it really needs to be a natural fiber bristles bush and as stiff as possible.
Good reading OP!
Yes I think you need a good natural bristle and they aren't difficult to come by or expensive. I don't know a lot about them, but i've been using one with the bristles coming out at about 45', I'm inclined to think that's better than at 90' like a normal brush.Good reading OP!
You'll already know about when to strike it with the brush I think.
Gtom said:
Insa turbo special tracks, a cheap winch and a land anchor should see you not getting stuck again.
Even a farm jack or tirfor winch will do.
Yep, good advice and we did. Sort of. I think really the thing is to not let the field get like that in the first place.Even a farm jack or tirfor winch will do.
I don't know it it's actually possible to drive through some of this stuff at all in a 3 ton road car. The farmers have quadbikes which have wide tyres and are very light so don't sink.
CharlesdeGaulle said:
I live in a rental in a nice village on the continent but now find myself wanting to chuck lime plaster at walls. This is a Christmas like no other!
I know, there is something very satisfying about going back to basics and working with these old and natural materials, knowing that you're doing right by the building. I hate Winter, but have been doing the odd bit of hacking off and pointing when the weather allows and it's quite cathartic.From this article about the restoration of Haddon Hall in Derby:
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/r...
"Much of the work is done in the original way including a return to the use of lime mortar.
Stonemason Mr Eaton said: "One of the big problems is that hard cement has been covering the original stonework and trapped moisture, causing it to crumble.
New stonework will be able to breathe using lime mortars."
As wise old Ruskin said:
“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think, as we lay stone on stone, that a time is to come when those stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labour and wrought substance of them, 'See! This our fathers did for us.”
mikeiow said:
Thanks for the encouraging words.
Might be quite some time before we get to actually working on the wall....but will certainly bookmark this thread anyway!
Re-use is certainly the name of the game for a mid-1700s cottage, I have to say - one main upright post in the lounge looks like it was recovered from a shipwrecked ship (quite possible back in the day).
We do believe the wall was done using lime mortar - that was specifically what we had chosen the guy to do, although back then we could have easily been taken for a ride!
It does look broadly okay, & I agree with no worrying too much about that crack...be nice to help correct it over time though
Getting the basic tools will be on the list. Might be guided by the folks at Carrington Lime on that topic: who knows: maybe they have some equipment to sell their customers after they have trained them....I would if I were them!
It could be an NHL or a lime mixed with OPC, it does have a look about it which suggests something hard. You can test for lime quite easily. Does it feel soft when hit with a hammer or chisel? Ultimately you can pull a piece off and put it in vinegar, if it fizzes a bit it's lime.Might be quite some time before we get to actually working on the wall....but will certainly bookmark this thread anyway!
Re-use is certainly the name of the game for a mid-1700s cottage, I have to say - one main upright post in the lounge looks like it was recovered from a shipwrecked ship (quite possible back in the day).
We do believe the wall was done using lime mortar - that was specifically what we had chosen the guy to do, although back then we could have easily been taken for a ride!
It does look broadly okay, & I agree with no worrying too much about that crack...be nice to help correct it over time though
Getting the basic tools will be on the list. Might be guided by the folks at Carrington Lime on that topic: who knows: maybe they have some equipment to sell their customers after they have trained them....I would if I were them!
If you read back I covered tools. You don't have to spend a load on new stuff if you don't want, if you're savvy you can pick up older tools and they'll be as good if not better.
Chicken Chaser said:
OP, that Japonica is a Skimmia in case you ever need to look it up. Nice thread, although I did hope you were North Pennines when I first looked.
I would say we were. Below us is Derby and the Midlands and above us Cumbria and the North East, but it's open to interpretation. 'The North' is a bit vague.It's a Skimmia Rubella (we saved the label
) and is lovely to see such colour flourishing in Winter, I think we'll buy some different types to plant out in the future.ST565NP said:
"No Trees to Winch? How to Make a DIY Ground Anchor or Earth Anchor"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DdkBSZPwLA
And maybe this before that : "How to Make a DIY Wheel Winch"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZzpi8Jzj2Q
That's handy, I like that a lot and it's something to think about for the future. We got out, but as you'll see in a slightly different way in the end and still with nods to that method.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DdkBSZPwLA
And maybe this before that : "How to Make a DIY Wheel Winch"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZzpi8Jzj2Q
Tom4398cc said:
Hi Evoluzione,
Fantastic thread- good luck with the house.
Ref Trevor the Terrano, Before going down the winch and new bumper route, it might be cheaper and easier to use something like these for the soft spots:
https://www.paddockspares.com/pm1085-waffle-boards...
By the time you’re using land anchors and a winch, you’ll be making quite a mess of your land. Waffle boards/sand ladders are messy to use, but will make a lot less mess of your land.
It's a Terry Fantastic thread- good luck with the house.
Ref Trevor the Terrano, Before going down the winch and new bumper route, it might be cheaper and easier to use something like these for the soft spots:
https://www.paddockspares.com/pm1085-waffle-boards...
By the time you’re using land anchors and a winch, you’ll be making quite a mess of your land. Waffle boards/sand ladders are messy to use, but will make a lot less mess of your land.
Everytime I get stuck I can't help but think of what Arfur would have said. Terreeee!https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ucnzk
Sorry, it's an age thing.
As you'll read we got out in the end, with a combination of the above! And yes, making a mess is an issue, i've been back down today in my wellies and waterproofs pushing back the turf into the ruts and holes. Sheep don't eat mud.
The waffle boards either sunk out of sight, or were thrown backwards.
One of the guys i'd mentioned earlier from Terrano circles messaged me the other day. I think he wanted to get out for a bit like many of us do after the excesses of Christmas. Yeah drop by I said, but be warned the track to the upper fields and link to the lower is impassable and mine is stranded down there.
No problem says he, i've just fitted a winch so am looking to test it out. So we walked the land to get a feel for it, I joked if he went in there we'd be making him a bed up for the night, but he was eager to get stuck in - literally.
It's all downhill to get there so no problems as we slithered our way down, he perched on a solid bit and I chocked the wheels with some large stones.
He's owned that from it being 3 yrs old.
We jacked the front of mine up by using a farmers jack and some strops through the wheels, then dropped it onto waffle boards to make it a bit easier. Coupled up the winch and yanked it straight out.
If you can imagine a picture of a tiny dessert island with two 4x4s on it then that is indeed where we were then.
So we both left and tried to make it across, but both sunk very quickly. I walked back to the house and made up a basic ground anchor with some stuff I had lying around then walked back with it, a sledgehammer and a long steel pole.
I must apologise for the lack of pics and the poor ones we do have. When someone drops by to help you out you feel a bit of a dick running round taking pics of it instead of getting stuck in and there was a lot of physical work to do that day. Also it drizzled the whole time so impossible to get a good pic anyhow, the cameras tend to focus on the swirling drizzle.
I hammered the ground anchor in at about 45', but the winch kept pulling through the mud. We moved 1 metre per hour for the first two hrs then it got dark. It was just too soft and muddy.
We were however learning techniques and also the land. I could see odd undulations here and there indicating past drainage. A very slight and shallow ditch ran right across at one point, on one side it was siping, on the other it was relatively solid so we put the ground anchor in and then backed it up with the steel pole. It's about 5ft long and we bashed it in almost to the hilt.
To reach it we had to extend the winch with various ropes, strops, cargo straps, carabiners, shackles. You name it, we coupled it up. Once we'd got his free and past mine we tied the back of his to the front of mine and the winch pulled us both up the field! Near the end we got within roping distance of some trees so used those to pull us the last bit
Sad to say I didn't get a pic of that. I hadn't prepped myself for that kind of day, I started off with a bowl of muesli and didn't have time to eat for the rest of it. By 10.30pm were were both out, exhausted, covered in mud, but triumphant.
Earlier in the day his jacket was this colour:
Crap pictures aside at the end it looked like this:
So if you're ever in the West Yorks region, involved in some nasty road accident or a house fire and some Fireman called Jason turns up and tells you he owns a Terry (!) then relax. Because I can tell you for sure he's calm, collected, methodical and absolutely does not give up.
Possibly maybe because he doesn't want to spend the night with you, but nonetheless he gets the job done.
In brief a few pics of what should happen and what is going wrong with the problem field. Like everything else around here It's on a slope, the water should be finding it's way through from top to bottom via hidden waterways known as soughs (Prn: Soff).
The underground drainage channel here has probably collapsed (possibly under the weight of a heavy tractor) so the water is running over, then finding its way back under before going across under my field - somewhere:
I levered away this huge slab to see which direction it's headed:
The drainage walls here were built up like a dry stone wall with wide ones on top to cap it off:
^ That was the old way of doing it, this is the new way:
Same principle, just quicker and using modern materials of course. Not much is new is it?
Now I know which way it goes:
Water is actually bubbling up here and I don't know why. Is it a collapsed underground drain or a spring which comes into life after heavy rain? I'm thinking the former. When it's dried it just looks like a bumhole
These old gate posts predate the time when we started to use hinges, I think they just used to lift the gate up and slot it in.
Still standing:
You can just about see the slot going down from the top in the centre.
Sadly it's brother isn't upright any longer, probably uprooted to get a tractor through Clarkson style:
The problem is I don't know where all these ancient waterways go once they vanish underground. I think i'll have to research water divining! Sometimes when it's quiet and you're passing by a bit which has a loose or collapsed cap you can hear it bubbling away underneath and then dig down.
At the moment all I can do is use a pole and spade to prod and dig. I'm looking out for a tracked 2.5 - 2.8 ton excavator, but:
A. Will that get stuck?
B. I'm going to have to be careful on the field at this time of year anyhow as it could just end up being a mudbath (It's rented off to a sheep farmer).
C. Come Summer these issues will die down, but then it'll be harder to pinpoint what is happening with no water flowing like it is now.
I've been wondering around looking at some odd shapes in the ground, having a bit of a dig here and there and have found more and more water flowing underground. I think there is a mix of manmade ones, natural ones and overground ones.
The main one or two overland are shown on some old maps available online, but not the others, I wonder if such a map existed back in the day. Probably not as they are too old, maybe i'll end up measuring and drawing something out.
I am however getting more of a feel for what they've done and why. I think they've gone at 90' to the slope and the way the water wants to run. So the water runs so far then leaks into the side of the sough then gets carried away across to an overland ditch which then heads down to the beck.
I have to place my faith in that these ancient farmers knew what they were doing. Then find out where it's gone wrong and repair it. I think it'll be better to do that than put new plastic drainage pipes in, or maybe put a few extra modern ones in to help if needed.
The underground drainage channel here has probably collapsed (possibly under the weight of a heavy tractor) so the water is running over, then finding its way back under before going across under my field - somewhere:
I levered away this huge slab to see which direction it's headed:
The drainage walls here were built up like a dry stone wall with wide ones on top to cap it off:
^ That was the old way of doing it, this is the new way:
Same principle, just quicker and using modern materials of course. Not much is new is it?
Now I know which way it goes:
Water is actually bubbling up here and I don't know why. Is it a collapsed underground drain or a spring which comes into life after heavy rain? I'm thinking the former. When it's dried it just looks like a bumhole
These old gate posts predate the time when we started to use hinges, I think they just used to lift the gate up and slot it in.
Still standing:
You can just about see the slot going down from the top in the centre.
Sadly it's brother isn't upright any longer, probably uprooted to get a tractor through Clarkson style:
The problem is I don't know where all these ancient waterways go once they vanish underground. I think i'll have to research water divining! Sometimes when it's quiet and you're passing by a bit which has a loose or collapsed cap you can hear it bubbling away underneath and then dig down.
At the moment all I can do is use a pole and spade to prod and dig. I'm looking out for a tracked 2.5 - 2.8 ton excavator, but:
A. Will that get stuck?
B. I'm going to have to be careful on the field at this time of year anyhow as it could just end up being a mudbath (It's rented off to a sheep farmer).
C. Come Summer these issues will die down, but then it'll be harder to pinpoint what is happening with no water flowing like it is now.
I've been wondering around looking at some odd shapes in the ground, having a bit of a dig here and there and have found more and more water flowing underground. I think there is a mix of manmade ones, natural ones and overground ones.
The main one or two overland are shown on some old maps available online, but not the others, I wonder if such a map existed back in the day. Probably not as they are too old, maybe i'll end up measuring and drawing something out.
I am however getting more of a feel for what they've done and why. I think they've gone at 90' to the slope and the way the water wants to run. So the water runs so far then leaks into the side of the sough then gets carried away across to an overland ditch which then heads down to the beck.
I have to place my faith in that these ancient farmers knew what they were doing. Then find out where it's gone wrong and repair it. I think it'll be better to do that than put new plastic drainage pipes in, or maybe put a few extra modern ones in to help if needed.
Edited by Evoluzione on Saturday 1st January 15:54
dlks151 said:
Very useful stuff
That's fantastic, if it comes to it I can hire those for the weekend locally.For now i'm still investigating and opening up holes here and there. I've found what looks like small shallow craters, at one place they're all in a line across the field and I think every one is a collapse of varying severity. Digging down shows misplaced stones, but water still running through.
I've found one method is to ram the steel pole through the earth until it hits stone. If it sounds hollow it's a stone cap, if there is an inspection hole dug nearby I can actually hear the sound of the pole hitting the cap coming up through that hole.
I dug various small holes by hand and poked the pole in here and there to find a few different runs today, then about 4ish I walked across where one of the runs i'd found vanished into a vast patch of reeds. The water was running overland and going towards one of the open streams, it should have been going underground so I poked around in the mess of reeds which are everywhere.
The spade found something springy which was unusual. I dug in carefully with my hands and it hissed at me!
I got hold of a piece of perforated plastic drainage pipe and eased it up as it spat at me as well:
So between those ancient Soughs being laid and now someone has been 'doing a bit'. It hadn't been laid very well, had obviously blocked up and the pressure of water so much it was spraying out of the perforations when I disturbed it. It was almost solid with mud all the way along.
It was however getting dark and starting to rain again. I'd forgotten my torch, but I wasn't going home without a result of some sort as I was so close.
So I dived in like some (in my head) big Yorkshire version of Mick Dundee in waterproof kegs and wellies wrestling a huge black Boa Constrictor in the marsh. Everytime I yanked and flexed the thing it spat freezing jets of liquid mud and water at me
In reality I probably looked like an overweight Frank Spencer.
It caught me right across my face and I gasped. Bad move, as it then sprayed in my mouth. I'm used to opening my mouth when I shouldn't and something unsavoury coming out, but not usually going in so that was a new experience. Ugh, the grit wasn't good between my clenched teeth.
This went on for a while until I eventually dug the end out, squashing it underfoot like the Pro snake killer I am I loosened the mud out of the end and I was greeted with a steady muddy flow, I followed it back massaging it, but there is a lot of mud in there. It carried on flowing however
I went back to the overflow hole the backup had created and was merrily bubbling up and out of 1/2 an hr earlier
to see it had dropped a few inches already
So I done a fing.
Probably just a little thing, I think there is much more to do, but am looking forward to going back tomorrow to hopefully see a bit of water gone.
Well maybe, snow forecast tonight or some other kind of precipitation if it doesn't drop cold enough, but at least some of it can drain away properly.
The good thing about living here is you can just down tools in the field and leave them there. It was dark and my feet were frozen so I headed happily off home for a shower and some Corrie in front of the stove.
Edited by Evoluzione on Monday 3rd January 20:40
hidetheelephants said:
A digger doesn't seem like a good idea unless you're going to install a new drain; repairing the old is spade work unless it's really deep or you're good enough on the levers to crack a boiled egg and dunk soldiers with the bucket.
It would be a two person job, one watching and the other operating the excavator. I think you'd just have to accept you were going to damage it, but put it right again. It's not a difficult construction, a few bits of stone laid on top of each other.I'd be there for months with nothing put a pole and spade.
I've just been for a wander down, but forgot my phone to get a pic. The big problem hole is now empty of water and the plastic pipe I found is still flowing a lot so it's a start.
Hoping to meet up with the farmer who has been looking after it for the last few years to see what he knows and discuss it, speaking on the phone he didn't know about the plastic pipe in there.
Edited by Evoluzione on Tuesday 4th January 11:30
S100HP said:
Having read the whole thread during my nightshift, I must say I'm in awe of what you've taken on and how you're approaching it. I'd love to do something similar.
I am however surprised that you've not invested in a quad bike or some kind of ATV or Mule. Would do everything Terry does and more, with less fuss. Friend of mine has a smallholding and has one, states it's invaluable. Even simple things like taking the rubbish down the drive would be significantly easier. Might be worth considering?
Anyway, keep up the good work!
Thanks! I am however surprised that you've not invested in a quad bike or some kind of ATV or Mule. Would do everything Terry does and more, with less fuss. Friend of mine has a smallholding and has one, states it's invaluable. Even simple things like taking the rubbish down the drive would be significantly easier. Might be worth considering?
Anyway, keep up the good work!
A quad wouldn't take us out if it snows and wouldn't tow what Terry does sometimes, but yes it would scamper over the mud and carry bits and pieces around the land. At the time he was purchased I was pulling in many heavy trailerloads of stuff and getting stuck here, it was invaluable then to take over and shunt stuff around. I could shod it with a set of full mud tyres and a locking front diff to make it more versatile in Spring and Winter or just use an alternative.
Really I could blow our entire budget on an array of machines to do various jobs. Importantly I need something with forks on the front and a digger on tracks, hopefully will find the latter soon.
My God Winter is depressing, I don't mean only here, just in general and in the UK. 8am as I'm part way through typing and it's still only half light, like many others we've had a light fall of snow overnight and the birds are getting their breakfast on the feeder, some kind of precipitation is rattling against the windows, I know not what. The blackbird has been forced onto the table as his food on the floor is covered in snow, he doesn't like it up there. They all have their favourite spots to feed.
I've got a post on wildlife to complete and post when I have time. I took some time off over Christmas and NY to write what I did, but have had to go back to doing more serious stuff this week like most people.
There is some old saying about not owning a house, but being merely a resident of it for a short time or something like that? I will find out and remind myself.
As you will have gathered I like history and am really keen to find out more of the story of this place, i've been given a head start by the owners before the last lot who have left reams and reams of historic paperwork of invoices, deeds, titles, rights etc. The older stuff Is exceptionally hard for me to get through, I'm just not academic enough and it's written in difficult old legal jargon.
I would love to take what is there and write it out in more simpler terms as a story, but think that'll have to come another day when or if we ever have an excess of money to pay someone (Solicitor?) to pick through it.
History is like planting trees, I should really be doing more important things than planting trees, but on balance Winter is the time to plant a tree and if we don't get them in soon we won't be able to enjoy them in the future.
The problem with waiting is history gets lost over time. I spent a day over the holidays searching for the owners before last as I figured they maybe still alive and would know a lot as they lived here maybe 20yrs or so, I think it's them who has left a lot of the paperwork and done some research. The problem is there is no written conclusion, just papers.
I'm no detective, but do like reading story books about them, maybe some of it has rubbed off on me and I don't give up too easy.
In the end I failed in tracking them down using Ancestry.com and whilst 192.com did give me an area where they lived, when I tried joining it to get more it threw up a load of errors. The issue too is the owners had two daughters so it's likely their second names will have changed.
I told the O'H I would have to resort to banging on the doors of some of the leads, 'you can't do that!' she said, 'they'll think you're some nutter!' But I knew quite well that you don't just live in a place like this with no fascination or interesting memories, as long as I had the right person and managed to say the house name before having a door slammed in my face I knew I'd be in there. 'You don't have to be mad to live here, but it helps' applies.
Before that however I went back to my plea on a local FB page and someone on there had been to school with the daughters who were brought up here. They knew their married name and a connection was made. The daughter sent a FB friend request, probably to check me out first before messaging me. Her O/H had said the same as mine about strange people, but she read me well and rang me via FB. She was a bit of a wild child and still a live wire now at 49, but we chatted for ages and have swapped many a message and story.
Her and her parents lived a very interesting life and happily both her parents are still alive although in their 80s. It turns out they are only about 20 miles and 40 mins away.
I'm hoping that come Summer we can all get together here.
Oops it's snowing heavily now, glad Terry is out of the field, fuelled up, battery charged and ready if needed.
I'm on with getting water tests done with a view to fitting a filtration system, but more on that another day.
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