Smart meters - Avoid?
Discussion
55palfers said:
This isn't news. It has been available literally for years.As it happens, there is also 'plunge pricing' where you pay less for energy off-peak.
It is a good way to manage the grid.
Condi said:
Not at all. Simply moving the dishwashing from 7pm to 9pm could mean you pay half as much. Or you could tell the dishwasher to have everything clean for 6am and it will chose the best time based on electricity prices. Equally maybe your fridge could turn off for half an hour over the most expensive period of the day.
Technology will mean lots of changes and savings will be possible without needing to become nocturnal, and once people think about it they will make many changes just in response to the prices. At the moment there is no incentive to do so at all, so people don't.
Just to come back to this idea of night time operation.Technology will mean lots of changes and savings will be possible without needing to become nocturnal, and once people think about it they will make many changes just in response to the prices. At the moment there is no incentive to do so at all, so people don't.
Fire risks. Unattended high power appliances operating under you while you’re asleep at night.
If they had impeccable track records it’d be less worrying.
Noise. If you’re a light sleeper it’s not a good idea.
Dishwasher. If like me your house came with a rubbish washer, you run it as soon as you fill it and/or soak the items as you’re loading it.
If you left stuff to dry for 8hrs before operating you’d be washing it a 2nd time, or running a hot sink to do it.
Even a good dishwasher will struggle with long drying times.
So you use more energy or water.
Kids. They make a mess/dirty clothes/s
t pants at all times of day and night.The BIG solutions here are either.
Base load that can go up and down, efficiently.
Energy storage in either big, medium or many small facilities, to level load.
Asking people to change habits is a ridiculous solution for a modern society.
This isn’t a fundamental problem that engineering or simple long term investment can’t solve.
This (managing users consumption habits) is a desperate solution. A free market would see demand fulfilled.
Yes charging more in the day vs night is a great way for markets to adjust demand as necessary.
But really if that solution is insufficient, and people are still willing to pay more in the day, the issue then is base load throttling.
Ironic really that all our energy one way or another comes from the sun.
And the sun is presenting itself in the day when we want energy.
Yet we seem to struggle with energy…
Mr Whippy said:
Dishwasher. If like me your house came with a rubbish washer, you run it as soon as you fill it and/or soak the items as you’re loading it.
If you left stuff to dry for 8hrs before operating you’d be washing it a 2nd time, or running a hot sink to do it.
Even a good dishwasher will struggle with long drying times.
So you use more energy or water.
You need a better dishwasherIf you left stuff to dry for 8hrs before operating you’d be washing it a 2nd time, or running a hot sink to do it.
Even a good dishwasher will struggle with long drying times.
So you use more energy or water.
I load mine over 2-3 days, I just scrape plates and put them in
I even hit the eco button
99.9% of the time everything comes out spotless
55palfers said:
That's actually a fairly positive article in favour of Smart Meters but the headline is based on 'probably', 'could' and 'maybe' statements. Clickbait media training.DanL said:
cb31 said:
55palfers said:
Well I'm shocked, I never thought this would happen 
I really dont see how there is this beleif that the smart meter is entirely to rinse every consumer for more cash, thats happened anyway and smart meters have been around for ages.
If they were keen on defrauding you, surely the old method was easier to do that with ?
I prefer knowing where I am up to so I can adjust behaviour, its a learning process.
My wife resisted a water meter for ages, we were paying £700 a year water rates based on rateable value, it halved the bill like 15 years ago, and its only just really risen beyond that.
Been caught out before for £1000 as the Direct Debt was set too low and didnt take any notice over a couple of years.
I am on a fixed tariff so same cost all the time, I hope we get to pricing that does reward planning usage better and we do still have competition and freedom of movement at least at the UK supplier level, its just they all got hit by the wholesale price rises at the same time, hence why so many have gone bankrupt so they are, to a degree in the same boat as us.
If they were keen on defrauding you, surely the old method was easier to do that with ?
I prefer knowing where I am up to so I can adjust behaviour, its a learning process.
My wife resisted a water meter for ages, we were paying £700 a year water rates based on rateable value, it halved the bill like 15 years ago, and its only just really risen beyond that.
Been caught out before for £1000 as the Direct Debt was set too low and didnt take any notice over a couple of years.
I am on a fixed tariff so same cost all the time, I hope we get to pricing that does reward planning usage better and we do still have competition and freedom of movement at least at the UK supplier level, its just they all got hit by the wholesale price rises at the same time, hence why so many have gone bankrupt so they are, to a degree in the same boat as us.
Mr Whippy said:
Condi said:
Not at all. Simply moving the dishwashing from 7pm to 9pm could mean you pay half as much. Or you could tell the dishwasher to have everything clean for 6am and it will chose the best time based on electricity prices. Equally maybe your fridge could turn off for half an hour over the most expensive period of the day.
Technology will mean lots of changes and savings will be possible without needing to become nocturnal, and once people think about it they will make many changes just in response to the prices. At the moment there is no incentive to do so at all, so people don't.
Just to come back to this idea of night time operation.Technology will mean lots of changes and savings will be possible without needing to become nocturnal, and once people think about it they will make many changes just in response to the prices. At the moment there is no incentive to do so at all, so people don't.
Fire risks. Unattended high power appliances operating under you while you’re asleep at night.
If they had impeccable track records it’d be less worrying.
Noise. If you’re a light sleeper it’s not a good idea.
Dishwasher. If like me your house came with a rubbish washer, you run it as soon as you fill it and/or soak the items as you’re loading it.
If you left stuff to dry for 8hrs before operating you’d be washing it a 2nd time, or running a hot sink to do it.
Even a good dishwasher will struggle with long drying times.
So you use more energy or water.
Kids. They make a mess/dirty clothes/s
t pants at all times of day and night.The BIG solutions here are either.
Base load that can go up and down, efficiently.
Energy storage in either big, medium or many small facilities, to level load.
Asking people to change habits is a ridiculous solution for a modern society.
This isn’t a fundamental problem that engineering or simple long term investment can’t solve.
This (managing users consumption habits) is a desperate solution. A free market would see demand fulfilled.
Yes charging more in the day vs night is a great way for markets to adjust demand as necessary.
But really if that solution is insufficient, and people are still willing to pay more in the day, the issue then is base load throttling.
Ironic really that all our energy one way or another comes from the sun.
And the sun is presenting itself in the day when we want energy.
Yet we seem to struggle with energy…
Why does the solution have to be one or the other? Why can't it be both? Absent nuclear, I'm not sure there's anything green that could be an efficient base load, but there's certainly a lot of grid storage going in right now. The problem isn't just generation and use though, there's the infrastructure of the grid (about 50% of your electricity bill) to take into account too, you can either upgrade the grid at vast expense to everyone, or you can persuade people to use energy at a time of day when it's not already constrained and thereby cut overall costs.
All our energy comes from the sun one way or another? Do explain, especially in relation to wind turbines!
J4CKO said:
I really dont see how there is this beleif that the smart meter is entirely to rinse every consumer for more cash, thats happened anyway and smart meters have been around for ages.
If they were keen on defrauding you, surely the old method was easier to do that with ?
I prefer knowing where I am up to so I can adjust behaviour, its a learning process.
My wife resisted a water meter for ages, we were paying £700 a year water rates based on rateable value, it halved the bill like 15 years ago, and its only just really risen beyond that.
Been caught out before for £1000 as the Direct Debt was set too low and didnt take any notice over a couple of years.
I am on a fixed tariff so same cost all the time, I hope we get to pricing that does reward planning usage better and we do still have competition and freedom of movement at least at the UK supplier level, its just they all got hit by the wholesale price rises at the same time, hence why so many have gone bankrupt so they are, to a degree in the same boat as us.
The effect of Smart meters in terms of tariffing is not there yet because they are not yet anywhere near universal.If they were keen on defrauding you, surely the old method was easier to do that with ?
I prefer knowing where I am up to so I can adjust behaviour, its a learning process.
My wife resisted a water meter for ages, we were paying £700 a year water rates based on rateable value, it halved the bill like 15 years ago, and its only just really risen beyond that.
Been caught out before for £1000 as the Direct Debt was set too low and didnt take any notice over a couple of years.
I am on a fixed tariff so same cost all the time, I hope we get to pricing that does reward planning usage better and we do still have competition and freedom of movement at least at the UK supplier level, its just they all got hit by the wholesale price rises at the same time, hence why so many have gone bankrupt so they are, to a degree in the same boat as us.
As such they are just being used by some energy companies (eg Octopus) to offer tariff structures that are interesting to some users (eg cheap overnight EV charging etc) & to cut some meter reading costs, and in doing so perhaps attract more people to have them installed.
Move to a situation where Smart meters are universal and they will absolutely be used to disguise costs and, more to the point, make it nigh on impossible to compare costs and suppliers.
The energy companies have done their damndest to do this for years as it is by messing about with the balance between Gas & Electricity unit prices and fixed charges such that if you are a dual fuel user you already need a spreadsheet and a fair amount of usage data to accurately compare costs and supply offers,
Allow them the means to introduce flexible charging (where prices may not even be the same from one day to the next or week by week) and you have no hope whatsoever of being able to make accurate comparisons. That then hands the power in the marketplace back to the energy providers with the inevitable consequences.
Energy companies are neither benevolent nor benign, and never will be IMO!
I don't think time of use tariffs will be different day-to-day, nobody is going to sign up to a tariff where the cost is unknown so energy suppliers won't offer them. If however they start offering tariffs that vary by time of day, I think there will be people who choose to change their habits, you only have to look at the EV tariffs that people are moving onto.
Energy supplier profits won't go down (not that they're making any money right now anyway), but I think those with smart meters will be those who get cheaper tariffs (assuming they change their habits) rather than those without who will be stuck with a choice of high tariffs.
Energy supplier profits won't go down (not that they're making any money right now anyway), but I think those with smart meters will be those who get cheaper tariffs (assuming they change their habits) rather than those without who will be stuck with a choice of high tariffs.
AyBee said:
Energy supplier profits won't go down (not that they're making any money right now anyway), but I think those with smart meters will be those who get cheaper tariffs (assuming they change their habits) rather than those without who will be stuck with a choice of high tariffs.
Those will be the final levers they pull to get everyone to switch over.Then the only thing that will contain what they do is regulation and I wouldn't be too hopeful about that.
You only have to look at the b
ks that is the energy price cap and the way it's expressed, or the tariff comparison rates and the opacity of those in recent years to see what is likely to happen. The energy companies have form.
[quote]All our energy comes from the sun one way or another? Do explain, especially in relation to wind turbines!
[/quote]
The sun makes the wind blow.
The only energy that doesn't come from the sun one way or another is nuclear, and even then you could probably argue it came form 'a sun' if not 'the sun'.
[/quote]
The sun makes the wind blow.
The only energy that doesn't come from the sun one way or another is nuclear, and even then you could probably argue it came form 'a sun' if not 'the sun'.
Wombat3 said:
J4CKO said:
I really dont see how there is this beleif that the smart meter is entirely to rinse every consumer for more cash, thats happened anyway and smart meters have been around for ages.
If they were keen on defrauding you, surely the old method was easier to do that with ?
I prefer knowing where I am up to so I can adjust behaviour, its a learning process.
My wife resisted a water meter for ages, we were paying £700 a year water rates based on rateable value, it halved the bill like 15 years ago, and its only just really risen beyond that.
Been caught out before for £1000 as the Direct Debt was set too low and didnt take any notice over a couple of years.
I am on a fixed tariff so same cost all the time, I hope we get to pricing that does reward planning usage better and we do still have competition and freedom of movement at least at the UK supplier level, its just they all got hit by the wholesale price rises at the same time, hence why so many have gone bankrupt so they are, to a degree in the same boat as us.
The effect of Smart meters in terms of tariffing is not there yet because they are not yet anywhere near universal.If they were keen on defrauding you, surely the old method was easier to do that with ?
I prefer knowing where I am up to so I can adjust behaviour, its a learning process.
My wife resisted a water meter for ages, we were paying £700 a year water rates based on rateable value, it halved the bill like 15 years ago, and its only just really risen beyond that.
Been caught out before for £1000 as the Direct Debt was set too low and didnt take any notice over a couple of years.
I am on a fixed tariff so same cost all the time, I hope we get to pricing that does reward planning usage better and we do still have competition and freedom of movement at least at the UK supplier level, its just they all got hit by the wholesale price rises at the same time, hence why so many have gone bankrupt so they are, to a degree in the same boat as us.
As such they are just being used by some energy companies (eg Octopus) to offer tariff structures that are interesting to some users (eg cheap overnight EV charging etc) & to cut some meter reading costs, and in doing so perhaps attract more people to have them installed.
Move to a situation where Smart meters are universal and they will absolutely be used to disguise costs and, more to the point, make it nigh on impossible to compare costs and suppliers.
The energy companies have done their damndest to do this for years as it is by messing about with the balance between Gas & Electricity unit prices and fixed charges such that if you are a dual fuel user you already need a spreadsheet and a fair amount of usage data to accurately compare costs and supply offers,
Allow them the means to introduce flexible charging (where prices may not even be the same from one day to the next or week by week) and you have no hope whatsoever of being able to make accurate comparisons. That then hands the power in the marketplace back to the energy providers with the inevitable consequences.
Energy companies are neither benevolent nor benign, and never will be IMO!
It all adds up, you have your usage details and they have their offers in terms of pricing. You can get whatever info about a company as their accounts are published online, you can get details of wholesale prices and see if you think they are overcharging.
They arent benevolent, and never said they were but would say its more transparent now than its ever been. Not sure how you can disguise anything as you have the energy used, the unit cost, the final bill etc ?
Its up to the consumer to do their homework, or just let it happen like renewing car insurance and they had algorithms to nudge it up so you wouldn't bother but thats been stopped I read.
Also up to us to make better use of what is supplied, I have been guilty of not monitoring it but I am right on it now.
J4CKO said:
Wombat3 said:
J4CKO said:
I really dont see how there is this beleif that the smart meter is entirely to rinse every consumer for more cash, thats happened anyway and smart meters have been around for ages.
If they were keen on defrauding you, surely the old method was easier to do that with ?
I prefer knowing where I am up to so I can adjust behaviour, its a learning process.
My wife resisted a water meter for ages, we were paying £700 a year water rates based on rateable value, it halved the bill like 15 years ago, and its only just really risen beyond that.
Been caught out before for £1000 as the Direct Debt was set too low and didnt take any notice over a couple of years.
I am on a fixed tariff so same cost all the time, I hope we get to pricing that does reward planning usage better and we do still have competition and freedom of movement at least at the UK supplier level, its just they all got hit by the wholesale price rises at the same time, hence why so many have gone bankrupt so they are, to a degree in the same boat as us.
The effect of Smart meters in terms of tariffing is not there yet because they are not yet anywhere near universal.If they were keen on defrauding you, surely the old method was easier to do that with ?
I prefer knowing where I am up to so I can adjust behaviour, its a learning process.
My wife resisted a water meter for ages, we were paying £700 a year water rates based on rateable value, it halved the bill like 15 years ago, and its only just really risen beyond that.
Been caught out before for £1000 as the Direct Debt was set too low and didnt take any notice over a couple of years.
I am on a fixed tariff so same cost all the time, I hope we get to pricing that does reward planning usage better and we do still have competition and freedom of movement at least at the UK supplier level, its just they all got hit by the wholesale price rises at the same time, hence why so many have gone bankrupt so they are, to a degree in the same boat as us.
As such they are just being used by some energy companies (eg Octopus) to offer tariff structures that are interesting to some users (eg cheap overnight EV charging etc) & to cut some meter reading costs, and in doing so perhaps attract more people to have them installed.
Move to a situation where Smart meters are universal and they will absolutely be used to disguise costs and, more to the point, make it nigh on impossible to compare costs and suppliers.
The energy companies have done their damndest to do this for years as it is by messing about with the balance between Gas & Electricity unit prices and fixed charges such that if you are a dual fuel user you already need a spreadsheet and a fair amount of usage data to accurately compare costs and supply offers,
Allow them the means to introduce flexible charging (where prices may not even be the same from one day to the next or week by week) and you have no hope whatsoever of being able to make accurate comparisons. That then hands the power in the marketplace back to the energy providers with the inevitable consequences.
Energy companies are neither benevolent nor benign, and never will be IMO!
It all adds up, you have your usage details and they have their offers in terms of pricing. You can get whatever info about a company as their accounts are published online, you can get details of wholesale prices and see if you think they are overcharging.
They arent benevolent, and never said they were but would say its more transparent now than its ever been. Not sure how you can disguise anything as you have the energy used, the unit cost, the final bill etc ?
Its up to the consumer to do their homework, or just let it happen like renewing car insurance and they had algorithms to nudge it up so you wouldn't bother but thats been stopped I read.
Also up to us to make better use of what is supplied, I have been guilty of not monitoring it but I am right on it now.
You'll need a very big spreadsheet to work out what's going on and which is going to be the right supplier - which just increases the inertia - which is exactly what they want. Might be time to stick a few energy company shares in the SIPP come to think of it!
AyBee said:
I don't think time of use tariffs will be different day-to-day, nobody is going to sign up to a tariff where the cost is unknown so energy suppliers won't offer them
....
Already happens. Octopus Agile for instance tracks the day ahead auction prices... Octopus publish the pricing formula and there is a cap at 35p....
The rate in any 30 minute slot is unrelated to that same slot in any other day past or present.
eg. it may well be a different rate at the same time on different days.
No ideas for a name said:
AyBee said:
I don't think time of use tariffs will be different day-to-day, nobody is going to sign up to a tariff where the cost is unknown so energy suppliers won't offer them
....
Already happens. Octopus Agile for instance tracks the day ahead auction prices... Octopus publish the pricing formula and there is a cap at 35p....
The rate in any 30 minute slot is unrelated to that same slot in any other day past or present.
eg. it may well be a different rate at the same time on different days.
Mr Whippy said:
Asking people to change habits is a ridiculous solution for a modern society.
You say this and yet forget that many other things which are limited and not stored work in the same way. Airfare tickets - higher in school holidays.
Train tickets - higher at rush hour.
Perishable food - cheaper in the shop at the end of the day.
Hotel rooms - higher during summer.
It is far cheaper and easier to get people to change their behaviour slightly than just burn more and more fuel because people are too stubborn to change. We are not talking about big changes, but putting the dishwasher on at 9pm rather than 6pm, doing the laundry at 2pm rather than 5pm, and providing incentives for people to flex their battery storage (eg Vehicle to Grid).
Obviously you can carry on as you are and pay more, but for most people, they are small changes to save money on their energy bills.
Condi said:
Mr Whippy said:
Asking people to change habits is a ridiculous solution for a modern society.
You say this and yet forget that many other things which are limited and not stored work in the same way. Airfare tickets - higher in school holidays.
Train tickets - higher at rush hour.
Perishable food - cheaper in the shop at the end of the day.
Hotel rooms - higher during summer.
It is far cheaper and easier to get people to change their behaviour slightly than just burn more and more fuel because people are too stubborn to change. We are not talking about big changes, but putting the dishwasher on at 9pm rather than 6pm, doing the laundry at 2pm rather than 5pm, and providing incentives for people to flex their battery storage (eg Vehicle to Grid).
Obviously you can carry on as you are and pay more, but for most people, they are small changes to save money on their energy bills.
We have had a century of society growing on the bases of consuming what we want, when we want, at ever decreasing (in real terms) cost. Society really has to wake up and smell the roses. The planet cannot cope. Be it energy, raw materials or waste. None of that is sustainable. We have to move back to a more balanced outlook where people understand and are able to manage their impact. To be honest, a few sharp shocks like the current energy price crisis coupled with the drive for smart meters and variable pricing might actually be exactly what we need longer term.
Ironic me writing the above given I don't even have smart meters. But I can see they are going to become essential whether I like it or not. And pretty soon.
DanL said:
cb31 said:
55palfers said:
Well I'm shocked, I never thought this would happen Just like those who steadfastly refuse to have water meters fitted, the water suppliers have started moving those people to the most eye watering tariff they have available, especially in areas listed as being 'water stressed' of which there are becoming more and more.
The daft thing is, many people would save money by getting a water meter fitted.
We all know the first generation of smart meters were only useful while still connected to the original supplier. Well, it looks like the second generation of meters, using ‘the internet of things’ or the old 2G phone network, might not have much more life in them as the government plan to phase 2G out.
https://apple.news/AvaaBUFTVRhC9j3rJYdlqvQ
https://apple.news/AvaaBUFTVRhC9j3rJYdlqvQ
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