Should older people give up their family homes?
Discussion
Type R Tom said:
Post like this make me laugh too, who would have thought that the four Yorkshire men sketch would still be relevant today.
I bet your parents probably thought you had it too easy too and I would be willing to bet if you were starting off in constriction today, you would be highly unlikely to end up where you are now in 40 years, regardless of effort.
There always ends up being these sorts of camps and they're probably not the case for most people. I've never lived as he suggests, ever. And I wouldn't.I bet your parents probably thought you had it too easy too and I would be willing to bet if you were starting off in constriction today, you would be highly unlikely to end up where you are now in 40 years, regardless of effort.
In these two camps one has literally eaten coal for 2 years and used a dead dog as a sofa to get where he is today. And the one moaning must have the newest iphone, eat 3 avocados a day and drives around in a fancy car that he can't afford.
The reality is obviously more nuanced, but there is one thing that I question of the avocado camp and it is why so many people look to beat down on those in a perceived favourable position instead of trying to emulate it for themselves? We know it's harder, but it isn't impossible.
blueg33 said:
Broadly therefore, they build what people want.
But the 'broadly' is also skewed by Planning requirements.
The most popular homes on any estates I've designed have always been bungalows and FoGs - the former because they are favoured by (cash rich) older people, the latter because they are very popular both with FTB and BTL, because they give you cheap freehold with none of the leasehold/management company complications of conventional flats.
Most developers now don't build open market bungalows because they are too land-hungry, when set against high land values (which are driven by restricted supply through the Planning system).
Most developers don't now build open market FoGs (or other 1- or 2-bed properties in large numbers) because they don't make financial sense when you're having to offset them against affordable housing requirements based on a percentage of dwellings.
The whole concept of making open market developers deliver affordable housing is pretty flawed, IMO, but you're going to do so it makes more sense to base requirements on percentage GIA instead of percentage of dwellings, so as not to drive delivery of the open market units toward larger, more expensive houses.
Equus said:
Type R Tom said:
My issue is that if we can’t build more houses to decrease demand for larger family home, thereby freeing up starter homes, is it right that older couples live in big 4 bed places alone, sometimes neglecting them for years when they could downgrade.
How does encouraging older people to downsize free up starter homes? It would be the 'starter homes' they'd be downsizing into?Type R Tom said:
gfreeman said:
I do chuckle at this... I am now just turned 70 - I wonder what OP considers old??
When I first moved out of my parents house in 1973 I saved every penny I had, took on two part time jobs as well as my main employment and saved for nearly 3 years living like a hermit until my girlfriend and I had enough for a deposit on a new starter home 65 miles away from work.
The mortgage was more than my salary. We had no furniture, no carpets, no curtains, no washing machine, no fridge, no television, a rusty heap of a car and without my girlfriend working we would have starved.
We went to auctions, junk shops and scoured the local paper for bargain carpets etc. Everything was second hand or built myself.
As a birthday gift we gave our neighbour two carpet samples to stick to his feet so it would feel like fitted carpet - we could hear him clomping about in his place through the walls - in the same position as us... as were a lot of my friends doing the same or very similar.
I was lucky working in construction as I could claim my travel expenses (thank god) but still had to travel for 3 hours a day there and back.
Fast forward years and years of bloody hard work and we now live in a million+ house (via numerous doer uppers) and have a couple of Porsches in the four bay garage.
No whinging millenial is going to take my gaff - give up your BMW/Type R/mobile phone/HDTV/alcohol/ for a few years. work your arse off then come back and have a moan...
Post like this make me laugh too, who would have thought that the four Yorkshire men sketch would still be relevant today. When I first moved out of my parents house in 1973 I saved every penny I had, took on two part time jobs as well as my main employment and saved for nearly 3 years living like a hermit until my girlfriend and I had enough for a deposit on a new starter home 65 miles away from work.
The mortgage was more than my salary. We had no furniture, no carpets, no curtains, no washing machine, no fridge, no television, a rusty heap of a car and without my girlfriend working we would have starved.
We went to auctions, junk shops and scoured the local paper for bargain carpets etc. Everything was second hand or built myself.
As a birthday gift we gave our neighbour two carpet samples to stick to his feet so it would feel like fitted carpet - we could hear him clomping about in his place through the walls - in the same position as us... as were a lot of my friends doing the same or very similar.
I was lucky working in construction as I could claim my travel expenses (thank god) but still had to travel for 3 hours a day there and back.
Fast forward years and years of bloody hard work and we now live in a million+ house (via numerous doer uppers) and have a couple of Porsches in the four bay garage.
No whinging millenial is going to take my gaff - give up your BMW/Type R/mobile phone/HDTV/alcohol/ for a few years. work your arse off then come back and have a moan...
I bet your parents probably thought you had it too easy too and I would be willing to bet if you were starting off in constriction today, you would be highly unlikely to end up where you are now in 40 years, regardless of effort.
Under-occupancy is a massive issue, I agree.
Many of us are guilty of it. We skipped the first time home to buy a detached family home, but that meant we were "under-occupied" for many years.
Similarly my parents should downsize now everyone has flown the nest. And whilst the accessibility of a bungalow is tempting, few come with much external space these days, which coincidentally is where they spend much of their time gardening now they are retired.
It's a huge national issue, I just don't see any easy way around it.
Many of us are guilty of it. We skipped the first time home to buy a detached family home, but that meant we were "under-occupied" for many years.
Similarly my parents should downsize now everyone has flown the nest. And whilst the accessibility of a bungalow is tempting, few come with much external space these days, which coincidentally is where they spend much of their time gardening now they are retired.
It's a huge national issue, I just don't see any easy way around it.
gfreeman said:
I do chuckle at this... I am now just turned 70 - I wonder what OP considers old??
When I first moved out of my parents house in 1973 I saved every penny I had, took on two part time jobs as well as my main employment and saved for nearly 3 years living like a hermit until my girlfriend and I had enough for a deposit on a new starter home 65 miles away from work.
The mortgage was more than my salary. We had no furniture, no carpets, no curtains, no washing machine, no fridge, no television, a rusty heap of a car and without my girlfriend working we would have starved.
We went to auctions, junk shops and scoured the local paper for bargain carpets etc. Everything was second hand or built myself.
As a birthday gift we gave our neighbour two carpet samples to stick to his feet so it would feel like fitted carpet - we could hear him clomping about in his place through the walls - in the same position as us... as were a lot of my friends doing the same or very similar.
I was lucky working in construction as I could claim my travel expenses (thank god) but still had to travel for 3 hours a day there and back.
Fast forward years and years of bloody hard work and we now live in a million+ house (via numerous doer uppers) and have a couple of Porsches in the four bay garage.
No whinging millenial is going to take my gaff - give up your BMW/Type R/mobile phone/HDTV/alcohol/ for a few years. work your arse off then come back and have a moan...
So you managed to stumble into a £1m house because you were initially allowed to borrow way more than you could afford?When I first moved out of my parents house in 1973 I saved every penny I had, took on two part time jobs as well as my main employment and saved for nearly 3 years living like a hermit until my girlfriend and I had enough for a deposit on a new starter home 65 miles away from work.
The mortgage was more than my salary. We had no furniture, no carpets, no curtains, no washing machine, no fridge, no television, a rusty heap of a car and without my girlfriend working we would have starved.
We went to auctions, junk shops and scoured the local paper for bargain carpets etc. Everything was second hand or built myself.
As a birthday gift we gave our neighbour two carpet samples to stick to his feet so it would feel like fitted carpet - we could hear him clomping about in his place through the walls - in the same position as us... as were a lot of my friends doing the same or very similar.
I was lucky working in construction as I could claim my travel expenses (thank god) but still had to travel for 3 hours a day there and back.
Fast forward years and years of bloody hard work and we now live in a million+ house (via numerous doer uppers) and have a couple of Porsches in the four bay garage.
No whinging millenial is going to take my gaff - give up your BMW/Type R/mobile phone/HDTV/alcohol/ for a few years. work your arse off then come back and have a moan...
If that was still allowed I could be in a million pound house myself tomorrow!
People your age have no idea what it's like to try and get on the housing ladder now. Even if most people were happy to have a shell of a house they still go for way more than most could afford - even if they cut out everything in life aside from the basics.
Type R Tom said:
gfreeman said:
I do chuckle at this... I am now just turned 70 - I wonder what OP considers old??
When I first moved out of my parents house in 1973 I saved every penny I had, took on two part time jobs as well as my main employment and saved for nearly 3 years living like a hermit until my girlfriend and I had enough for a deposit on a new starter home 65 miles away from work.
The mortgage was more than my salary. We had no furniture, no carpets, no curtains, no washing machine, no fridge, no television, a rusty heap of a car and without my girlfriend working we would have starved.
We went to auctions, junk shops and scoured the local paper for bargain carpets etc. Everything was second hand or built myself.
As a birthday gift we gave our neighbour two carpet samples to stick to his feet so it would feel like fitted carpet - we could hear him clomping about in his place through the walls - in the same position as us... as were a lot of my friends doing the same or very similar.
I was lucky working in construction as I could claim my travel expenses (thank god) but still had to travel for 3 hours a day there and back.
Fast forward years and years of bloody hard work and we now live in a million+ house (via numerous doer uppers) and have a couple of Porsches in the four bay garage.
No whinging millenial is going to take my gaff - give up your BMW/Type R/mobile phone/HDTV/alcohol/ for a few years. work your arse off then come back and have a moan...
Post like this make me laugh too, who would have thought that the four Yorkshire men sketch would still be relevant today. When I first moved out of my parents house in 1973 I saved every penny I had, took on two part time jobs as well as my main employment and saved for nearly 3 years living like a hermit until my girlfriend and I had enough for a deposit on a new starter home 65 miles away from work.
The mortgage was more than my salary. We had no furniture, no carpets, no curtains, no washing machine, no fridge, no television, a rusty heap of a car and without my girlfriend working we would have starved.
We went to auctions, junk shops and scoured the local paper for bargain carpets etc. Everything was second hand or built myself.
As a birthday gift we gave our neighbour two carpet samples to stick to his feet so it would feel like fitted carpet - we could hear him clomping about in his place through the walls - in the same position as us... as were a lot of my friends doing the same or very similar.
I was lucky working in construction as I could claim my travel expenses (thank god) but still had to travel for 3 hours a day there and back.
Fast forward years and years of bloody hard work and we now live in a million+ house (via numerous doer uppers) and have a couple of Porsches in the four bay garage.
No whinging millenial is going to take my gaff - give up your BMW/Type R/mobile phone/HDTV/alcohol/ for a few years. work your arse off then come back and have a moan...
I bet your parents probably thought you had it too easy too and I would be willing to bet if you were starting off in constriction today, you would be highly unlikely to end up where you are now in 40 years, regardless of effort.
We are still working through a generation of pensioners on generous DB pension schemes who can afford to stay in big houses.
In not that many years, my generation will be retiring, mostly on crappy private pensions apart from the public sector employees. Suddenly that big house will be a asset to sell and live off the proceeds.
The council tax alone on my modest 4 bedroom home is £2,850, which seems quite affordable while I'm working, less so on what a career of putting 10% of my modest salary into a private pension will get me.
In not that many years, my generation will be retiring, mostly on crappy private pensions apart from the public sector employees. Suddenly that big house will be a asset to sell and live off the proceeds.
The council tax alone on my modest 4 bedroom home is £2,850, which seems quite affordable while I'm working, less so on what a career of putting 10% of my modest salary into a private pension will get me.
A common theme seems to be present in many threads and news articles these days.
I have a problem/issue/grievance. I think it should be someone else's problem/issue/grievance or the whole country's. But not mine. That will save me solving it!
What happened to taking responsibility for yourself. OK not always possible or morally proper but when you can.......... you should!
I have a problem/issue/grievance. I think it should be someone else's problem/issue/grievance or the whole country's. But not mine. That will save me solving it!
What happened to taking responsibility for yourself. OK not always possible or morally proper but when you can.......... you should!
phazed said:
Why concrete over this generally, beautiful country.
Sensible reduction in the population is the only way. Plenty of houses available, reduce the obscene profits from new builds, keep the countryside as it should be for everyone to enjoy and not strive to continuously build rubbish estates that blot the landscape.
Is there anyone in a quiet small town or village that welcomes the new multi hundred/thousand house development tacked on. Of course not.
Aren't we the most overcrowded piece of land in Europe?
There isn't an easy answer as building is big business and radical thinking is unpopular.
More importantly, I'm not giving up my large house, several garages and many cars that I have practically slaved away for just as I am older.
As far as i'm concerned too, that is the answer and i'm happy that i've done my bit.Sensible reduction in the population is the only way. Plenty of houses available, reduce the obscene profits from new builds, keep the countryside as it should be for everyone to enjoy and not strive to continuously build rubbish estates that blot the landscape.
Is there anyone in a quiet small town or village that welcomes the new multi hundred/thousand house development tacked on. Of course not.
Aren't we the most overcrowded piece of land in Europe?
There isn't an easy answer as building is big business and radical thinking is unpopular.
More importantly, I'm not giving up my large house, several garages and many cars that I have practically slaved away for just as I am older.
Given the town centres are emptying I think there should be a push to house people there.
BlackWidow13 said:
Type R Tom said:
gfreeman said:
I do chuckle at this... I am now just turned 70 - I wonder what OP considers old??
When I first moved out of my parents house in 1973 I saved every penny I had, took on two part time jobs as well as my main employment and saved for nearly 3 years living like a hermit until my girlfriend and I had enough for a deposit on a new starter home 65 miles away from work.
The mortgage was more than my salary. We had no furniture, no carpets, no curtains, no washing machine, no fridge, no television, a rusty heap of a car and without my girlfriend working we would have starved.
We went to auctions, junk shops and scoured the local paper for bargain carpets etc. Everything was second hand or built myself.
As a birthday gift we gave our neighbour two carpet samples to stick to his feet so it would feel like fitted carpet - we could hear him clomping about in his place through the walls - in the same position as us... as were a lot of my friends doing the same or very similar.
I was lucky working in construction as I could claim my travel expenses (thank god) but still had to travel for 3 hours a day there and back.
Fast forward years and years of bloody hard work and we now live in a million+ house (via numerous doer uppers) and have a couple of Porsches in the four bay garage.
No whinging millenial is going to take my gaff - give up your BMW/Type R/mobile phone/HDTV/alcohol/ for a few years. work your arse off then come back and have a moan...
Post like this make me laugh too, who would have thought that the four Yorkshire men sketch would still be relevant today. When I first moved out of my parents house in 1973 I saved every penny I had, took on two part time jobs as well as my main employment and saved for nearly 3 years living like a hermit until my girlfriend and I had enough for a deposit on a new starter home 65 miles away from work.
The mortgage was more than my salary. We had no furniture, no carpets, no curtains, no washing machine, no fridge, no television, a rusty heap of a car and without my girlfriend working we would have starved.
We went to auctions, junk shops and scoured the local paper for bargain carpets etc. Everything was second hand or built myself.
As a birthday gift we gave our neighbour two carpet samples to stick to his feet so it would feel like fitted carpet - we could hear him clomping about in his place through the walls - in the same position as us... as were a lot of my friends doing the same or very similar.
I was lucky working in construction as I could claim my travel expenses (thank god) but still had to travel for 3 hours a day there and back.
Fast forward years and years of bloody hard work and we now live in a million+ house (via numerous doer uppers) and have a couple of Porsches in the four bay garage.
No whinging millenial is going to take my gaff - give up your BMW/Type R/mobile phone/HDTV/alcohol/ for a few years. work your arse off then come back and have a moan...
I bet your parents probably thought you had it too easy too and I would be willing to bet if you were starting off in constriction today, you would be highly unlikely to end up where you are now in 40 years, regardless of effort.
BlackWidow13 said:
Type R Tom said:
gfreeman said:
I do chuckle at this... I am now just turned 70 - I wonder what OP considers old??
When I first moved out of my parents house in 1973 I saved every penny I had, took on two part time jobs as well as my main employment and saved for nearly 3 years living like a hermit until my girlfriend and I had enough for a deposit on a new starter home 65 miles away from work.
The mortgage was more than my salary. We had no furniture, no carpets, no curtains, no washing machine, no fridge, no television, a rusty heap of a car and without my girlfriend working we would have starved.
We went to auctions, junk shops and scoured the local paper for bargain carpets etc. Everything was second hand or built myself.
As a birthday gift we gave our neighbour two carpet samples to stick to his feet so it would feel like fitted carpet - we could hear him clomping about in his place through the walls - in the same position as us... as were a lot of my friends doing the same or very similar.
I was lucky working in construction as I could claim my travel expenses (thank god) but still had to travel for 3 hours a day there and back.
Fast forward years and years of bloody hard work and we now live in a million+ house (via numerous doer uppers) and have a couple of Porsches in the four bay garage.
No whinging millenial is going to take my gaff - give up your BMW/Type R/mobile phone/HDTV/alcohol/ for a few years. work your arse off then come back and have a moan...
Post like this make me laugh too, who would have thought that the four Yorkshire men sketch would still be relevant today. When I first moved out of my parents house in 1973 I saved every penny I had, took on two part time jobs as well as my main employment and saved for nearly 3 years living like a hermit until my girlfriend and I had enough for a deposit on a new starter home 65 miles away from work.
The mortgage was more than my salary. We had no furniture, no carpets, no curtains, no washing machine, no fridge, no television, a rusty heap of a car and without my girlfriend working we would have starved.
We went to auctions, junk shops and scoured the local paper for bargain carpets etc. Everything was second hand or built myself.
As a birthday gift we gave our neighbour two carpet samples to stick to his feet so it would feel like fitted carpet - we could hear him clomping about in his place through the walls - in the same position as us... as were a lot of my friends doing the same or very similar.
I was lucky working in construction as I could claim my travel expenses (thank god) but still had to travel for 3 hours a day there and back.
Fast forward years and years of bloody hard work and we now live in a million+ house (via numerous doer uppers) and have a couple of Porsches in the four bay garage.
No whinging millenial is going to take my gaff - give up your BMW/Type R/mobile phone/HDTV/alcohol/ for a few years. work your arse off then come back and have a moan...
I bet your parents probably thought you had it too easy too and I would be willing to bet if you were starting off in constriction today, you would be highly unlikely to end up where you are now in 40 years, regardless of effort.
gfreeman said:
No whinging millenial is going to take my gaff - give up your BMW/Type R/mobile phone/HDTV/alcohol/ for a few years. work your arse off then come back and have a moan...
So giving up a £1000 phone, £1,500 TV and a £6,000 p/a car lease is the route to a modest million pound house?Doesn't add up. Try again.
BlackWidow13 said:
I would have thought though, from a purely uninformed point of view, that there won’t be that many places where a developer’s best option is to build nothing but bungalows, simply because that speaks to a large pent up demand - ie a lot of pensioners who want to move.
But if you don't artificially skew the market by the imposition of Planning/affordable housing requirements, it is possible to offer a more balanced range of product. It's still nor perfect - we'll never have unlimited land supply, so land cost will always be a balancing pressure against demand for bungalows - but it would be a lot better than it is at present.When I came into the industry in the early '80's, we were building a much broader mix of properties - running from bungalows and 1 and 3 bed homes, through to 5-beds, on almost every site (and what we now euphemistically call 'affordable' housing - social housing, in other words - had until recently been delivered by the local authorities themselves as 'council housing').
These days, the typical open market mix on a developer housing site has been much more compressed toward the 3- and 4-bed detached part of the spectrum, with as many of the latter as the local market will stand (values per square foot drop off for 5-beds and above, so they're not as attractive).
What you need is a carrot to get people to move out of homes that are too big for them now, rather than the stick of taxation.
In the same way that there are/were incentives for first time buyers, there should be incentives for people to downsize when the time is right rather than people holding on until death or until they move in to a carehome. I'm not saying that people should downside to a flat or something wholly unsuitable, but, there should be a way such that someone in a detached 4 bedroom house can be incentivised to move to a 3 bed for example.
In the same way that there are/were incentives for first time buyers, there should be incentives for people to downsize when the time is right rather than people holding on until death or until they move in to a carehome. I'm not saying that people should downside to a flat or something wholly unsuitable, but, there should be a way such that someone in a detached 4 bedroom house can be incentivised to move to a 3 bed for example.
33q said:
A common theme seems to be present in many threads and news articles these days.
I have a problem/issue/grievance. I think it should be someone else's problem/issue/grievance or the whole country's. But not mine. That will save me solving it!
What happened to taking responsibility for yourself. OK not always possible or morally proper but when you can.......... you should!
Indeed, It's all you hear these days, I can't afford the things I want, the government must intervene and take it off other people and give it to me.I have a problem/issue/grievance. I think it should be someone else's problem/issue/grievance or the whole country's. But not mine. That will save me solving it!
What happened to taking responsibility for yourself. OK not always possible or morally proper but when you can.......... you should!
Equus said:
These days, the typical open market mix on a developer housing site has been much more compressed toward the 3- and 4-bed detached part of the spectrum, with as many of the latter as the local market will stand (values per square foot drop off for 5-beds and above, so they're not as attractive).
Or 3 story townhouses/terraces and coach-house over-garage flats. None of which are particularly friendly to people in their later years.Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff