Non-gas methods of heating your home
Discussion
Alucidnation said:
JulianPH said:
Air source can not extract enough heat in winter (as there is little to extract).
Not true, unless the system was not specified correctly.
The bigger problem with heat pumps, in my experience, is that (unless you massively oversize them) they don't give a good response time. You can't expect the system to be left on tickover all day when you're out at work, then have a house that's toasty warm ten minutes after you get home; which means that unless your thermal envelope is close to PassivHaus standards, you've got to waste a lot of energy by leaving the heat pump running at a fairly high continuous 'background' level.
Heat pumps can work well when designed in conjunction with a new, highly insulated and airtight building, but they can be a complete liability when applied to an existing building.
Equus said:
This; there is plenty of heat to extract, even in winter. Absolute zero (the point at which there is genuinely no heat left to extract from matter) is at -273.15 Celcius, though I suspect your ASHP would cease functioning when the air became liquid.
The bigger problem with heat pumps, in my experience, is that (unless you massively oversize them) they don't give a good response time. You can't expect the system to be left on tickover all day when you're out at work, then have a house that's toasty warm ten minutes after you get home; which means that unless your thermal envelope is close to PassivHaus standards, you've got to waste a lot of energy by leaving the heat pump running at a fairly high continuous 'background' level.
Heat pumps can work well when designed in conjunction with a new, highly insulated and airtight building, but they can be a complete liability when applied to an existing building.
Equus, if you were building a new home to latest standards, but not to PassivHaus standards, what heating/water system(s) would you install?The bigger problem with heat pumps, in my experience, is that (unless you massively oversize them) they don't give a good response time. You can't expect the system to be left on tickover all day when you're out at work, then have a house that's toasty warm ten minutes after you get home; which means that unless your thermal envelope is close to PassivHaus standards, you've got to waste a lot of energy by leaving the heat pump running at a fairly high continuous 'background' level.
Heat pumps can work well when designed in conjunction with a new, highly insulated and airtight building, but they can be a complete liability when applied to an existing building.
I'm hoping to self build again in 12 months and this time around I want to incorporate the most cost efficient systems from a long term running point of view.
We replaced a load of storage heaters for a client earlier this year with Yandiya Far Infrared heaters, they're really happy with the results. I have them on my house too and they're really good. Size wise you need about 50% the output that you'd need with conventional heating, so although they're electric they are cost efficient to run. They look awesome too, we put in frameless black glass in on this particular job. Another good make is Herschel.
Feel free to get in touch if you want some more information. Utility trade.com
On ASHP, we can do these but they are more effective in houses with low heat loss. Far infrared work well in older houses as well as new.
Water heating you can look at thermo dynamic boxes. We've not installed these yet, they are mcs accredited though , and are meant to be able to provide all you dhw all year round.
Feel free to get in touch if you want some more information. Utility trade.com
On ASHP, we can do these but they are more effective in houses with low heat loss. Far infrared work well in older houses as well as new.
Water heating you can look at thermo dynamic boxes. We've not installed these yet, they are mcs accredited though , and are meant to be able to provide all you dhw all year round.
garyhun said:
Equus, if you were building a new home to latest standards, but not to PassivHaus standards, what heating/water system(s) would you install?
It depends what you are trying to achieve, of course.If it's available, gas remains the cheapest and most obvious answer for most people.
If gas isn't available, then an oil fired boiler or heat pump, but for the latter I'd be thinking carefully about other aspects of the design to ensure maximum compatibility.
Alucidnation said:
JulianPH said:
Underfloor heating is very expensive and pretty useless in my experience (30 foot by 14 foot kitchen/dining and 3 bathrooms).
Either the house insulated properly, or the system wasnt installed correctly.JulianPH said:
Air source can not extract enough heat in winter (as there is little to extract).
Not true, unless the system was not specified correctly.JulianPH said:
Ground source is better, but say goodbye to your existing garden.
Why? Other than whilst it is installed there is no reason to not have a garden.JulianPH said:
Oil is cheap at the moment and you can hide the tank quite easily.
What happens when the price goes up?2. That is what I have just been advised on heating for my swimming pool build.
3. 'Existing' was the key word there!
4. Oil will become more expensive, of course!
Equus said:
It depends what you are trying to achieve, of course.
If it's available, gas remains the cheapest and most obvious answer for most people.
If gas isn't available, then an oil fired boiler or heat pump, but for the latter I'd be thinking carefully about other aspects of the design to ensure maximum compatibility.
I was thinking the lowest cost over the long term. If it's available, gas remains the cheapest and most obvious answer for most people.
If gas isn't available, then an oil fired boiler or heat pump, but for the latter I'd be thinking carefully about other aspects of the design to ensure maximum compatibility.
I was under the impression that a thermal store system primarily powered by heat pump with log burner and mains gas boiler as a backup was the most efficient way forward.
I guess trying to minimise the reliance on mains/grid power is the aim.
garyhun said:
I was under the impression that a thermal store system primarily powered by heat pump with log burner and mains gas boiler as a backup was the most efficient way forward.
If you think you know the answer, why waste people's time asking the question? 
If you're going for full Lentil Weaving mode, you don't need a heating system at all...
...but 'most efficient' certainly wouldn't be one that involved electricity. Neither would any solution that has a prime objective of 'minimising reliance on mains/grid power' (your suggested solution relies on both gas and electricity?!)
Whatever the means of generating it, there will always be a significant cost to grid electricity (and likely to rise markedly: the way things are going we can look forward to blackouts as demand outstrips supply in the coming years, and if that happens you can bet your life that the unit cost of electricity will go through the roof) and any fuel source that involves several changes of energy state and transmission losses is never going to be 'efficient' in the strictest sense of the word.
Meanwhile in the real world, most efficient/cheapest to run has to be balanced against installation cost, ease and convenience of operation, for most people.
As I said, it depends what your objectives are: at one extreme, I can happily design you a completely off-grid house that needs no bought in-fuel of any sort and no utilities connections (if you can afford the initial cost and have a suitable plot of land to sustain it), but for most people the most sensible compromise of initial cost vs. running cost vs. convenience remains gas, where it is available.
Equus said:
garyhun said:
I was under the impression that a thermal store system primarily powered by heat pump with log burner and mains gas boiler as a backup was the most efficient way forward.
If you think you know the answer, why waste people's time asking the question? If you're going for full Lentil Weaving mode, you don't need a heating system at all...
...but 'most efficient' certainly wouldn't be one that involved electricity. Neither would any solution that has a prime objective of 'minimising reliance on mains/grid power' (your suggested solution relies on both gas and electricity?!)
Whatever the means of generating it, there will always be a significant cost to grid electricity (and likely to rise markedly: the way things are going we can look forward to blackouts as demand outstrips supply in the coming years, and if that happens you can bet your life that the unit cost of electricity will go through the roof) and any fuel source that involves several changes of energy state and transmission losses is never going to be 'efficient' in the strictest sense of the word.
Meanwhile in the real world, most efficient/cheapest to run has to be balanced against installation cost, ease and convenience of operation, for most people.
As I said, it depends what your objectives are: at one extreme, I can happily design you a completely off-grid house that needs no bought in-fuel of any sort and no utilities connections (if you can afford the initial cost and have a suitable plot of land to sustain it), but for most people the most sensible compromise of initial cost vs. running cost vs. convenience remains gas, where it is available.
So unless I'm into lentil munching in a grand scale, it's a gas boiler and wonderful insulation by the sounds of it.
Thanks!
DSGbangs said:
Central air conditioning unit with outdoor unit.
During winter run on heat mode
During summer run on cooling mode
Easy.
Ozzie and Norwegian guys I used to work offshore with reckon this is the latest and greatest, each comes from extremes of weather, but both swear by it. They call it heat pump, but it looks and sounds exactly like air con to me, the outdoor condenser bit is buried underground though.During winter run on heat mode
During summer run on cooling mode
Easy.
garyhun said:
So unless I'm into lentil munching in a grand scale, it's a gas boiler and wonderful insulation by the sounds of it.
I say again: it depends what your objectives are.What is the right solution for one design, or one person's lifestyle, may not be at all the right solution for another.
It's a bit like turning up in General Gassing and asking: "what's the best sort of engine for a car?"
Depending on you needs, your budget, your usage, the type of car it's going into, the type of road it's being driven on, etc., etc., the answer could vary wildly...
Your Architect should be sitting down with you and discussing all these things before agreeing a preference.
And if there's a strong preference on the heating system, it may itself influence the design of the house it's going into; for instance if my client works 9-5 with a commute and has expressed a wish to use a heat pump, I'd be very careful about having a large amount of thermal mass within the insulated envelope, to compensate for a heating system that is a as laggy as a 70's turbocharger; which in turn means that I've got to be careful about solar gain to prevent rapid overheating if the sun comes out, 'cos killing his cat with heatstroke is bad for my reputation and PI insurance.
Equus said:
garyhun said:
So unless I'm into lentil munching in a grand scale, it's a gas boiler and wonderful insulation by the sounds of it.
I say again: it depends what your objectives are.What is the right solution for one design, or one person's lifestyle, may not be at all the right solution for another.
It's a bit like turning up in General Gassing and asking: "what's the best sort of engine for a car?"
Depending on you needs, your budget, your usage, the type of car it's going into, the type of road it's being driven on, etc., etc., the answer could vary wildly...
Your Architect should be sitting down with you and discussing all these things before agreeing a preference.
And if there's a strong preference on the heating system, it may itself influence the design of the house it's going into; for instance if my client works 9-5 with a commute and has expressed a wish to use a heat pump, I'd be very careful about having a large amount of thermal mass within the insulated envelope, to compensate for a heating system that is a as laggy as a 70's turbocharger; which in turn means that I've got to be careful about solar gain to prevent rapid overheating if the sun comes out, 'cos killing his cat with heatstroke is bad for my reputation and PI insurance.
DSGbangs said:
Central air conditioning unit with outdoor unit.
During winter run on heat mode
During summer run on cooling mode
Easy.
This is one I haven't considered and having cooling in the summer would be nice too.During winter run on heat mode
During summer run on cooling mode
Easy.
I expected that the running costs would be expensive on a system like this though?
ryanMIL said:
DSGbangs said:
Central air conditioning unit with outdoor unit.
During winter run on heat mode
During summer run on cooling mode
Easy.
This is one I haven't considered and having cooling in the summer would be nice too.During winter run on heat mode
During summer run on cooling mode
Easy.
I expected that the running costs would be expensive on a system like this though?
Saleen836 said:
Multi fuel stove with a back boiler?
Do not consider this unless you like living like a Victorian; you need to keep the thing lit all of the time to keep heat in the water and keeping it going with any gusto overnight is very difficult.On a very cold winter's morning it is less than fun to be lighting a fire with kindling at 05:30 and then building it up to get heat in to have any chance of the house being remotely warm by the time your kids get up. Painful!
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