Tree preservation order on trees too close to house
Discussion
Hi All,
I'm looking at a house but the vendor says there are tree preservation orders on two trees on site. One I believe is a sycamore, some 10-12m tall and the trunk is <2m from the conservatory, maybe 5m from the house. I was surprised that a sycamore would be considered worthy of a TPO, but apparently so. The second is a horse chestnut, some 15m tall, around 15m from 'my' house, but only <5m from a neighbour's house. The houses were built late 80s/early 90s so are newer than the trees. The vendor has previously obtained permission for trimming of the trees. I don't know the soil type (how do I find out without digging up a sample?)
Online guidance seems to vary on safe distances for buildings from trees, but these distances seem smaller than all the recommendations. I'm uncomfortable with the sycamore being too close to 'my' house and potential damage to the foundations, plus the horse chestnut being too close to the neighbour and my potential liability for damage to their foundations. Am I being unduly worried as the foundations should have been spec'd to suit the presence of the trees? Is there any chance of over-ruling the TPO if the house is threatened? If so how threatened does the house have to be? I appreciate there's also a risk of heave to worry about if the trees do go so that's not necessarily the answer.
Any advice?
The boundaries to the house in question are shown in blue, the sycamore in red and the conker in yellow.
I'm looking at a house but the vendor says there are tree preservation orders on two trees on site. One I believe is a sycamore, some 10-12m tall and the trunk is <2m from the conservatory, maybe 5m from the house. I was surprised that a sycamore would be considered worthy of a TPO, but apparently so. The second is a horse chestnut, some 15m tall, around 15m from 'my' house, but only <5m from a neighbour's house. The houses were built late 80s/early 90s so are newer than the trees. The vendor has previously obtained permission for trimming of the trees. I don't know the soil type (how do I find out without digging up a sample?)
Online guidance seems to vary on safe distances for buildings from trees, but these distances seem smaller than all the recommendations. I'm uncomfortable with the sycamore being too close to 'my' house and potential damage to the foundations, plus the horse chestnut being too close to the neighbour and my potential liability for damage to their foundations. Am I being unduly worried as the foundations should have been spec'd to suit the presence of the trees? Is there any chance of over-ruling the TPO if the house is threatened? If so how threatened does the house have to be? I appreciate there's also a risk of heave to worry about if the trees do go so that's not necessarily the answer.
Any advice?
The boundaries to the house in question are shown in blue, the sycamore in red and the conker in yellow.
Edited by Jamp on Monday 7th July 17:52
Edited by Jamp on Tuesday 8th July 17:13
I would be worried with trees that close.
Are there any signs of any structural damage? Do the sellers have the original foundation plans showing the footing depths and tree influence calculations?
You can probably find the soil type online somewhere. If it's clay soil, I would be further worried.
We have a large, mature horse chestnut at the back of our garage and the footings there (house built 20 years ago) are over 3m deep.
Are there any signs of any structural damage? Do the sellers have the original foundation plans showing the footing depths and tree influence calculations?
You can probably find the soil type online somewhere. If it's clay soil, I would be further worried.
We have a large, mature horse chestnut at the back of our garage and the footings there (house built 20 years ago) are over 3m deep.
Best bet it to call Building Control BEFORE 10am at the council and chat to the guy that covers that area - re soil and foundations.
Then call the TPO department and see what they have to say about their removal.
I have heard of cases where damage is being caused yet the trees cannot be removed.
Then call the TPO department and see what they have to say about their removal.
I have heard of cases where damage is being caused yet the trees cannot be removed.
Get a copy of the TPO and associated plans from the Council. There should be no charge for this. Make sure the trees are actually protected.
A lot of TPO's are badly drafted, and some just mark out a large area and blanket protect everything within it - particularly on development sites. They shouldn't really do this - each tree should be individually assessed and recorded on the order. If they're not, how was the decision made as to whether they warrant protection - a tree can't be protected just because it's green, it's got to be of some wider amenity value. If the order is bad, you have a stronger case for arguing for allowing removal.
You've always got a right of appeal to the Planning Inspectorate if you're not happy with the Council's decision.
A lot of TPO's are badly drafted, and some just mark out a large area and blanket protect everything within it - particularly on development sites. They shouldn't really do this - each tree should be individually assessed and recorded on the order. If they're not, how was the decision made as to whether they warrant protection - a tree can't be protected just because it's green, it's got to be of some wider amenity value. If the order is bad, you have a stronger case for arguing for allowing removal.
You've always got a right of appeal to the Planning Inspectorate if you're not happy with the Council's decision.
generally speaking, I would expect it t be fairly easy to get the TPO o the sycamoere lifted. As others have said speaking to building control for advice befpre speaking to the Tree Officer.
Having that that, in clay soils, removing the tree can cause as much damage due to heave as damage from roots etc by leaving it in.
Personally, with a large tree that close, I would be looking for a different house. I think that the Horse Chestnut is fine but may need some on-going management, again discuss with building control.
It looks like the house is relatively recent (ie last 20 years or so), can you find out what the foundation recommendations were at the time of construction (builder, NHBC or building control). It may have extra depth foundations to account for the trees and they may have used Claymaster to reduce the effects of heave. It may even be piled or on a raft which would again reduce the impact of the trees on foundations although there remains risk from falling trees and damage in storms.
Having that that, in clay soils, removing the tree can cause as much damage due to heave as damage from roots etc by leaving it in.
Personally, with a large tree that close, I would be looking for a different house. I think that the Horse Chestnut is fine but may need some on-going management, again discuss with building control.
It looks like the house is relatively recent (ie last 20 years or so), can you find out what the foundation recommendations were at the time of construction (builder, NHBC or building control). It may have extra depth foundations to account for the trees and they may have used Claymaster to reduce the effects of heave. It may even be piled or on a raft which would again reduce the impact of the trees on foundations although there remains risk from falling trees and damage in storms.
Thanks all. I have asked the agent to share my concerns with the vendor and ask about foundation plans. The vendor is apparently going to look into it and potentially commission a 'tree specialist' to report on the issue. I will get onto the council building control and perhaps the tree officer meanwhile.
Another factor to consider is that I would want to build a PH-worthy garage in the SW corner of the plot, so I guess the foundations of this would need to be spec'd up to account for the horse chestnut being nearby.
Another factor to consider is that I would want to build a PH-worthy garage in the SW corner of the plot, so I guess the foundations of this would need to be spec'd up to account for the horse chestnut being nearby.
Edited by Jamp on Tuesday 8th July 17:25
Hello again.
The plot thickens in that the council have said there are no TPOs in force. They said perhaps they have expired or there is something in the deeds, but no formal TPO. I will have to put that to the vendor.
Assuming the trees could go if required then, what to do? I think the sycamore should go but perhaps be trimmed severely over say 3 or 4 occasions over the course of as many years, so as to gradually reduce its water consumption and thus allow the soil to adjust and minimise the risk of heave.
The horse chestnut I'm less keen to see go but I'm still worried about liability should damage occur to the neighbour's house, also I'd plan to build a garage in the corner of the plot so this would be within range of the roots. I wonder if it too could be severely trimmed so as to limit its growth and water consumption.
That just leaves assessing the current state of the foundations, but I can't imagine how to do that without digging! I'm wondering about getting the original planning permission docs from the library and seeing how the foundations were spec'd and whether the trees were considered, and if so, assuming they are adequate. Any thoughts?
The plot thickens in that the council have said there are no TPOs in force. They said perhaps they have expired or there is something in the deeds, but no formal TPO. I will have to put that to the vendor.
Assuming the trees could go if required then, what to do? I think the sycamore should go but perhaps be trimmed severely over say 3 or 4 occasions over the course of as many years, so as to gradually reduce its water consumption and thus allow the soil to adjust and minimise the risk of heave.
The horse chestnut I'm less keen to see go but I'm still worried about liability should damage occur to the neighbour's house, also I'd plan to build a garage in the corner of the plot so this would be within range of the roots. I wonder if it too could be severely trimmed so as to limit its growth and water consumption.
That just leaves assessing the current state of the foundations, but I can't imagine how to do that without digging! I'm wondering about getting the original planning permission docs from the library and seeing how the foundations were spec'd and whether the trees were considered, and if so, assuming they are adequate. Any thoughts?
Just been through this to build an extension. Tree with TPO literally pushing over boundary wall that needed to go. Council tree man rejected the PP application. When I spoke to him he admitted he hadn't even done a site survey but had just driven past. Got him out & after 30 minutes of reasoning he agreed the tree could go. This was a council owned tree so not strictly a TPO but basically works the same. We had to move the driveway 1m to satisfy him on protecting the other tree (they aren't even special trees-field maple). The cheeky sods then wanted me to pay for them to remove their tree that had damaged my wall. When I asked who to approach at the council to have the wall rebuilt they said they'd remove the tree if I didn't take action 
(the wall was going anyway )
In short I think you need to weigh up how good the house & plot is, speak to the council & get it in writing there is no TPO & also get out a builder or specialist for their thoughts. As has been said removing the tree can actually make matters worse. Don't under estimate the damage that can be caused, our wall was on 50cm thick concrete & it had been split in half like a hot knife through butter!!
(the wall was going anyway )In short I think you need to weigh up how good the house & plot is, speak to the council & get it in writing there is no TPO & also get out a builder or specialist for their thoughts. As has been said removing the tree can actually make matters worse. Don't under estimate the damage that can be caused, our wall was on 50cm thick concrete & it had been split in half like a hot knife through butter!!
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff