End of the ground source woes?
Discussion
Some folks will remember the many problems I had with my ground source heating over the past 6 years.
To cut a very long story very short; 151 page report by an independent engineer says it was wrongly designed (heat pump spec is almost 50% too low and there are not enough slinkies in the garden) and we are looking at them making me a £££ offer for the cost of a full reinstall ( bore holes, heat pump,bigger rads and wireless controls). Builder seems to have capitulated. It is likely to come as cash as they are struggling to find a contractor willing to do the whole job and take responsibility for it into the future. A full reinstall will require the garden to be dug up ( again) to remove the old slinkies which I am not looking forward to.
I am toying with the idea of leaving the GSHP system in, as the main issue is an undersized heat pump, but disconnecting the upstairs rads from the ground source and installing a LPG or biomass system to run the upstairs rads and perhaps run some rads downstairs to support the underfloor system run on the GSHP. OR going full biomass with rads throughout.
Anybody got any experience with biomass and or biomass connected to a GSHP system?
To cut a very long story very short; 151 page report by an independent engineer says it was wrongly designed (heat pump spec is almost 50% too low and there are not enough slinkies in the garden) and we are looking at them making me a £££ offer for the cost of a full reinstall ( bore holes, heat pump,bigger rads and wireless controls). Builder seems to have capitulated. It is likely to come as cash as they are struggling to find a contractor willing to do the whole job and take responsibility for it into the future. A full reinstall will require the garden to be dug up ( again) to remove the old slinkies which I am not looking forward to.
I am toying with the idea of leaving the GSHP system in, as the main issue is an undersized heat pump, but disconnecting the upstairs rads from the ground source and installing a LPG or biomass system to run the upstairs rads and perhaps run some rads downstairs to support the underfloor system run on the GSHP. OR going full biomass with rads throughout.
Anybody got any experience with biomass and or biomass connected to a GSHP system?
bobtail4x4 said:
why not add a borehole?
I am not sure they can connect the two at one manifold. Heat pump would have to be done anyway if we try to run the whole hous eon the GSHP as it is 10KWH short. It is all, or an integration compromise. If we have to get the drillers in we may as well go the whole hog and put in the bigger heat pump.I remember your original post and the horrendous issues you had to suffer. I also remember the shots of your garden being dug up for the slinkies to go in, so you have my sympathies!
I'm on biomass with a 25Kw system and a 2000 litre thermal store (3/4 bed detached 1930s build house in Gloucestershire). It's been in and running since the end of May last year. Knowing now what I do I would have spec'd the system differently but as I was in the hands of the system designer and installer, I had no experience to go on, so couldn't have done anything different! In general, I'm pleased with it, I still need to modify my internal system (rads and insulation etc) but as it was plumbed into an old oil powered system, it's no wonder some other aspects need changing. You'll either need a plentiful supply of wood, ability to chop, split, stack, season etc, or somewhere to build a pellet store and have them bulk delivered. I'm on logs (self sufficient) backed up by bags of pellets for when I can't be bothered or in years to come I'll build a bulk store for when I no longer want to sort logs etc. If you want to know more, please ask.
I'm on biomass with a 25Kw system and a 2000 litre thermal store (3/4 bed detached 1930s build house in Gloucestershire). It's been in and running since the end of May last year. Knowing now what I do I would have spec'd the system differently but as I was in the hands of the system designer and installer, I had no experience to go on, so couldn't have done anything different! In general, I'm pleased with it, I still need to modify my internal system (rads and insulation etc) but as it was plumbed into an old oil powered system, it's no wonder some other aspects need changing. You'll either need a plentiful supply of wood, ability to chop, split, stack, season etc, or somewhere to build a pellet store and have them bulk delivered. I'm on logs (self sufficient) backed up by bags of pellets for when I can't be bothered or in years to come I'll build a bulk store for when I no longer want to sort logs etc. If you want to know more, please ask.
I remember the thread, but not the details. How big is your garden? We put our pipework in with a mole drain (we don't have coils though) so there was next to no mess. It probably doesn't help that you've got rads - why on earth didn't they use under floor stuff?
Ours runs really well, I'd do the same again, (Not rubbing it in, just proving to the naysayers that it can work effectively!)
Ours runs really well, I'd do the same again, (Not rubbing it in, just proving to the naysayers that it can work effectively!)
Cogcog said:
trickywoo said:
Gas isn’t going up in price for a good few years.
Pretty simple and reliable way to stay warm.
No gas.Pretty simple and reliable way to stay warm.
We have no mains gas. We have gas. It lives in a big green 1,400 litre tank in the back garden, is delivered to the tank by truck, and costs about 35p/litre, plus 17p/day to rent the tank, less a £250 sign-on bonus whenever we change suppliers every time the two year contract expires. Underground tanks are available.
https://www.uklpg.org/advice/supplier-search
barryrs said:
Could an air source heat pump or solar hot water solution be combined with the system fitted to make up the shortfall in performance?
Good suggestion. The efficiency difference between ground source and air to air is relatively low and solar thermal hot water, assuming the OP does not already have it, will make up for that. All with minimal upheaval.
Your post makes me pleased with my decision to avoid this solution on my new build, we have gone for good old fashioned gas with a few solar panels on the flat part of the roof. I would be wary of Biomass, know a couple of people who have gone that route and they've regretted their decision, cost and hassle being the main gripes, though both say their homes are warmer. I think if I were you I might be inclined to go LPG and pocket the cash, then revisit in a few years when the technology matches the claims.
The house is listed and I think a biomass flue may be the limit ( no solar panels, LPG tank would have to be hidden). The house is 350 sq meters so uses about 20,000KWH a year ( current using closer to 25,000kwh).
I would be looking at a auto-feed pellet system. I have two roadside dry store rooms each about 4.8m x 2.4m . I can use one (or both) of those and move the junk to a gtarden shed (if the conservation officer allows).
My garden is 50 x 20m, all to grass, and has been completely ruined by the ground source ( large winter humps, grass dying due to leaching). They did a 30m x 150mm test drill for bore holes and despite their best errots it made a right mess. They are planning to dig up the slinkies (environmental requirement) and to install 3 x 175m x 30mm boreholes. I cannot imagine the mess and spoil to remove. They say they will need to returf most of the garden as removinbg the slinkies and drilling will chew it all up.
I did think about simply popping in LPG to supplement the GSHP, disconnecting the bedrooms from the GSHP and trunning upstaoirs with LPG to take the load off the GSHP instead of wasting that as it has about 120m of slinkies in L shaped trenches and a 14KW heat pump. As it stands it cannot keep the house warm in the winter an dthe garden looks like sand dunes.
Cogcog said:
The house is 350 sq meters so uses about 20,000KWH a year ( current using closer to 25,000kwh).
I would be looking at a auto-feed pellet system. I have two roadside dry store rooms each about 4.8m x 2.4m . I can use one (or both) of those and move the junk to a gtarden shed (if the conservation officer allows).
Our EPC (needed for the RHI on a biomass install) says we need circa 28Kwh for all heating and hot water and we have a 25Kw system. Knowing what I do now, I'd have gone for a 33Kw system (the next one available to me in my model range). Within the space available to you, you'd obviously need space for the boiler and thermal store and the pellet store. At a rough guess, you'd need 1 and a half of your stores - one for the boiler and thermal store and the half for the pellet store. There are lots of good pellet only boilers available and you'd not need as large a thermal store as you would if you were burning logs.I would be looking at a auto-feed pellet system. I have two roadside dry store rooms each about 4.8m x 2.4m . I can use one (or both) of those and move the junk to a gtarden shed (if the conservation officer allows).
Oh, and in your searching if you see a company called Euroheat - they are no longer trading but their staff seem to be in a new company called Zeroridge - I've not had much.....luck..... dealing with them so far.
Looking at all options for our new 20 year old bungalow west coast of Scotland.
Local renewable energy company cannot get the pellets for bio mass, was rationing them, then seems to have run out.
Rather putting us off the idea.
You've put us off GSHP
Most seem to grumble about ASHP although the local company is now pushing them (cynical comment - has to since his biomass sales have dwindled)
No gas but LPG which I'm told is expensive or oil where you're in the hands of the oil companies
Hhmmmm
Local renewable energy company cannot get the pellets for bio mass, was rationing them, then seems to have run out.
Rather putting us off the idea.
You've put us off GSHP
Most seem to grumble about ASHP although the local company is now pushing them (cynical comment - has to since his biomass sales have dwindled)
No gas but LPG which I'm told is expensive or oil where you're in the hands of the oil companies
Hhmmmm
Skyedriver said:
Local renewable energy company cannot get the pellets for bio mass, was rationing them, then seems to have run out.
Rather putting us off the idea.
Use this price comparison site for pellets - http://woodpelletguide.uk/wood-pellet-prices.html To be frank, buying in the middle of winter / a cold spell is never going to be the best time to buy, time your purchase to the middle of summer for the best prices and availability. Assuming you can buy sufficient for a year, then this works well. if you can split it to 2 buys a year, do spring and autumn.Rather putting us off the idea.
Timbuktu said:
We have a large (meant to heat one large house and two cottages) wood chip biomass boiler in one of our houses and it has been a f***ing nightmare.
I would never install one in my own home.
I thought wood chip (as opposed to pellet) was more for agricultural/industrial use? i don't think it is a good solution for domestic application unless you are running a BIG boiler (50Kw and up). Having just re-read your post, I can see it is for 3 homes, so should be a good fit. Why has it been a nightmare?I would never install one in my own home.
Supplementing with an ASHP wouldn't be a good idea, as you need the extra capacity when it is cold, which is when ASHP efficiencies are poor.
A possibility could be a thermal store topped up with a propane boiler, the GSHP would cope until temperatures got really cold outside when the propane boiler would kick in.
Did you say that the rads had also been undersized? If so get them replaced with correctly sized ones or you will have to run the whole system at higher flow temps which will reduce efficiency (and more importantly for you heat capacity)
A possibility could be a thermal store topped up with a propane boiler, the GSHP would cope until temperatures got really cold outside when the propane boiler would kick in.
Did you say that the rads had also been undersized? If so get them replaced with correctly sized ones or you will have to run the whole system at higher flow temps which will reduce efficiency (and more importantly for you heat capacity)
TooMany2cvs said:
Skyedriver said:
LPG which I'm told is expensive
LPG rapidly gets expensive if you're not on top of the contracts. If you are, then it's really not that bad.Oil has the disadvantage of being very easily nicked.
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff