Adivce re legal dispute over shared soakaway for gutter
Discussion
We own one half of a1930s semi and we're currently having a planning dispute with the neighbours (more details of that fun little story here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Their response to our planning complaint was to forcibly remove a guttering pipe that went through the fence from our side into the shared (open) drain on their side.
That drain in turn is primarily fed from a gutter downpipe in the middle of our rooves that collects rain from the front of both properties and drops it into the open drain.
I'm not sure when that open drain was installed, but I'm reasonably sure it isn't the original 1930s drainage set up.
The open drain then in turn goes underground, comes back under the boundary and feeds into a large soakaway that is entirely located on our property. We were informed about this by the previous owner of our house and have since had it checked by a plumber. We understand that the soakaway (and quite likely the open drain) was installed at least 15 years ago and possibly as long ago as 30 years.
So, assuming the deeds are slient on this drain set up, or only reference the original set up, can anyone please advise on the legal position on this - do we have a legal right to feed our roof's water into this open drain?
If not, can we try to leverage the fact that we have the soakaway on our property to gain access to the drain by way of a compromise (we'll allow access to the soakaway if you allow us access to the drain)?
Thanks in advance for any advice offered.
So,
Their response to our planning complaint was to forcibly remove a guttering pipe that went through the fence from our side into the shared (open) drain on their side.
That drain in turn is primarily fed from a gutter downpipe in the middle of our rooves that collects rain from the front of both properties and drops it into the open drain.
I'm not sure when that open drain was installed, but I'm reasonably sure it isn't the original 1930s drainage set up.
The open drain then in turn goes underground, comes back under the boundary and feeds into a large soakaway that is entirely located on our property. We were informed about this by the previous owner of our house and have since had it checked by a plumber. We understand that the soakaway (and quite likely the open drain) was installed at least 15 years ago and possibly as long ago as 30 years.
So, assuming the deeds are slient on this drain set up, or only reference the original set up, can anyone please advise on the legal position on this - do we have a legal right to feed our roof's water into this open drain?
If not, can we try to leverage the fact that we have the soakaway on our property to gain access to the drain by way of a compromise (we'll allow access to the soakaway if you allow us access to the drain)?
Thanks in advance for any advice offered.
So,
You need to read up on easements, if the title deeds are silent on this then you normally need to establish 20 years continuous use.
It would appear in this case there are, potentially, two easements one in favour of your neighbour and the the other in favour of you.
I would first of all check your title deeds, if you don't have them you can download them from Land registry.
There is more information here : https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/easemen...
It would appear in this case there are, potentially, two easements one in favour of your neighbour and the the other in favour of you.
I would first of all check your title deeds, if you don't have them you can download them from Land registry.
There is more information here : https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/easemen...
RATATTAK said:
It's not clear, to me at least, what you mean by an 'open drain'. Can you post a photo ?
Not at home this afternoon so can't post pics, but the bottom of the down pipe stops about two inches above ground level and the water drops into an open hole with a grate over the top, which is the start of the drain. youngsyr said:
RATATTAK said:
It's not clear, to me at least, what you mean by an 'open drain'. Can you post a photo ?
Not at home this afternoon so can't post pics, but the bottom of the down pipe stops about two inches above ground level and the water drops into an open hole with a grate over the top, which is the start of the drain. 
springfan62 said:
You need to read up on easements, if the title deeds are silent on this then you normally need to establish 20 years continuous use.
It would appear in this case there are, potentially, two easements one in favour of your neighbour and the the other in favour of you.
I would first of all check your title deeds, if you don't have them you can download them from Land registry.
There is more information here : https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/easemen...
Thanks for that, will read up when I get home! It would appear in this case there are, potentially, two easements one in favour of your neighbour and the the other in favour of you.
I would first of all check your title deeds, if you don't have them you can download them from Land registry.
There is more information here : https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/easemen...
You could have prescriptive rights gor the pipe if it’s been there long enough.
You may also have rights through the title, the title which is downloadable will say if rights exist but may not show the detail, for that you need the transfer or conveyance.
The neighbours title will also show rights and restrictions.
If you are not familiar with these things you need to speak to a property lawyer.
You may also have rights through the title, the title which is downloadable will say if rights exist but may not show the detail, for that you need the transfer or conveyance.
The neighbours title will also show rights and restrictions.
If you are not familiar with these things you need to speak to a property lawyer.
youngsyr said:
RATATTAK said:
So similar to this:
Very much so, thanks for the pic! The difference is that we have an additional pipe through the fence a few inches above the ground that connects water from the other half of the front of our roof. This is the pipe that they have removed.
RATATTAK said:
Would it be much work or upset if you were to put in a new drain run from the downpipe that drains the other half of the front of your roof to the soakaway on your land ?
That wouldn't of course end the dispute but it would be an 'UP YOURS' moment and you could perhaps insist that the neighbour pays the (inflated) cost as part of a resolution ...springfan62 said:
You need to read up on easements, if the title deeds are silent on this then you normally need to establish 20 years continuous use.
It would appear in this case there are, potentially, two easements one in favour of your neighbour and the the other in favour of you.
I would first of all check your title deeds, if you don't have them you can download them from Land registry.
There is more information here : https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/easemen...
I think we may have fallen at the first hurdle here: from the link, any easement the use must have been established for at least 20 years.It would appear in this case there are, potentially, two easements one in favour of your neighbour and the the other in favour of you.
I would first of all check your title deeds, if you don't have them you can download them from Land registry.
There is more information here : https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/easemen...
I suspect we will have difficulty showing this: we have only lived here for 8.5 years and I'm not sure even the previous owner lived in the house 20 years ago.
Assuming that a prescriptive easement is not possible for us to access the drain, would I be right in thinking it won't apply from our neighbours' side either? If this is the case, can we lawfully deny them access to the soakaway that is located entirely on our property?
ETA: My thinking here is that it will be difficult for the neighbours to re-route their guttering (it will at least be unsightly, if not expensive) and they are in the process of selling, so having this dispute hanging over them will not be to their favour. We might be able to use this to gain a favourable resolution.
Edited by youngsyr on Monday 27th August 18:50
RATATTAK said:
youngsyr said:
RATATTAK said:
So similar to this:
Very much so, thanks for the pic! The difference is that we have an additional pipe through the fence a few inches above the ground that connects water from the other half of the front of our roof. This is the pipe that they have removed.
blueg33 said:
You could have prescriptive rights gor the pipe if it’s been there long enough.
You may also have rights through the title, the title which is downloadable will say if rights exist but may not show the detail, for that you need the transfer or conveyance.
The neighbours title will also show rights and restrictions.
If you are not familiar with these things you need to speak to a property lawyer.
Thanks, I'll see what I can do first - it doesn't seem too complicated to me, but I guess the devil is in the detail and I certainly don't know about all the relevant laws.You may also have rights through the title, the title which is downloadable will say if rights exist but may not show the detail, for that you need the transfer or conveyance.
The neighbours title will also show rights and restrictions.
If you are not familiar with these things you need to speak to a property lawyer.
Mandat said:
Why not just bide your time until the neighbouring property is sold, and then reinstate the original arrangement when the new owners arrive.
It's a fair point, but they have been abusive to us over the fence and removed the pipe out of petty revenge after our formal complaint re their deck.I'm hoping that by throwing their removal of the pipe back in their face as being (a) not allowed under our respective legal rights and responsibilities and (b) disclosable (in addition to the planning dispute re their deck) to any potential purchaser (they are serial part time developers, their house is currently on the market), they will learn to think before opening their mouths or taking any further petty revenge.
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