Renewable energy to save money? Sorry It doesn't work.

[Evoluzione]

I'm going to put this thread in the FAQ up there ^ so would appreciate your time proven real life examples
Please prove me wrong, give me your working examples of how you did make it work financially.

There is an endless stream of these 'Should I get solar/wind power to save money' type posts and I think this should be the place to go for them.


So, renewable energy, why is it 'a thing' these days?

It's because our Government wants to go green and cut down on harmful emissions from fossil fuels and they don't like nuclear energy. They want you to contribute to this. It is not about saving money, forget it. It's about spending money to save the planet.
You do it to be green and benefit future generations. On a 'closer to home' personal scale that's your kids and the people who take over your house after you. On a much wider scale; the rest of the planet will benefit.

You however want to save money which is why you're reading this. I'm sorry, but this unlikely to happen.
We live in the wrong climate here to make it successful for you financially, the majority of houses do not get a lot of what is needed all year round or at least, in Winter when it's need the most. Some do perhaps....

Wind power

Makes power when the wind blows.
Doesn't make any power when there is no wind - go read up or log how many windy or non windy days you get near you.
They never put out the KWA they are quoted to do, some are worse than others.
Unsightly
They're noisy.
They vibrate.
They're expensive to buy.
Birds fly into them and get minced up.
They're expensive to run - need lowering down and servicing, bearings and parts replacing etc.

They will make you electric, but take all of that into consideration first and do the maths.

Solar

It's expensive to buy and have fitted, especially the batteries.
They make good power in Summer right when you need it the least.
The batteries and the panels have a limited life.
They're ugly, if you have a beautiful house they will ruin it.

Air or ground source heat pumps

Are currently being partly financed by a government grant making them at least, interesting.
Ugly
Noisy
The heat they create is quite mild. This means you'll need a very, very well insulated (modern) house and need to put in suitably (large) sized radiators or underfloor heating to make use of it.
They make the least heat when you need the most (in Winter).
I'm thinking servicing costs could be quite low due to the small and basic moving parts and some R-410A refrigerant gas and the units have quite a long life expectancy. What happens when they reach the end of their life i'm not sure, I mean, how much is a replacement going to cost if needed?

Hydro

I think if you're near constantly, falling and running water this can be made to work, but the amount of people who are must be about .05% of the population so i'm not even going to go there, unless provoked by someone who thinks they can make it work.



So there you go, find a way around those issues and wave hello to cheap power.
If you can DIY then you can make it work and save money, if you can't and a grant is not available then forget it.
If a grant is available and you have an older traditional type house then the grant will not cover the cost of all the improvements you need to make to make use of heat source pumps.
If you want future generations to benefit then do it. Maybe your house will be lived in by your offspring who will thank you for it - unless something better comes along in the meantime!

Edited by Evoluzione on Wednesday 16th February 18:08

[Evoluzione]

MJNewton said:

Evoluzione said:

I'm going to put this in the FAQ up there ^ so would appreciate your time proven real life examples

Is that what your opening gambit is based on? It doesn't sound like it - it reads more that you've got an axe to grind, and a political one at that? No offence intended but you don't sound anywhere near knowledgeable enough on the subject to be writing answers to a FAQ on it.

Edited by MJNewton on Saturday 5th February 08:24

I've invited you provide us with a real life example to prove me wrong yet you and most others can't seem to manage it.

[Evoluzione]

MJNewton said:

Evoluzione said:

I've invited you provide us with a real life example to prove me wrong yet you and most others can't seem to manage it.

I can't because I don't have real life examples to give you. I can spot a heavily biased view though, which is fine for an opinion but not as a FAQ where one might expect the answers to represent some level of concensus rather than one individual's ill-informed view.

I don't know why you're even posting here as you don't fulfil the criteria and have completely missed the point of the thread.

[Evoluzione]

Alex Z said:

I had solar panels fitted 8 years ago, and they paid back over 7.
There’s another 12 years of FIT payments to go, and until the recent price rises my net energy bill was zero.

The maths on newer battery backed systems without FITs are less clear, but probably back to being worthwhile if prices stay high.

Did you get a grant for that?

[Evoluzione]

4Q said:

So much wrong in the opening post. This is my area of expertise and I’ve tried in the past to post sensible unbiased facts about renewables, both benefits and pitfalls, but I’m tired with arguing with biased Ill informed people on here.

That's exactly why I started this thread we'll archive it so you don't have to do it again and again every week.
Please put forward your facts and hopefully a current real life example which has proved you to be correct.
I only want you do do it once and do it properly.

[Evoluzione]

TooLateForAName said:

Solar is working for us.
I DIY installed some panels on an outbuilding. Panels bought 2nd hand at £50 each. 6 of them up at the moment. Inverter bought cheap £90.
Says its generated 996 kwh so far (about 2 yrs) I've bought one of those smart diverter things so instead of exporting it will run the immersion heater.

My parents do very well out of solar - they covered their roof when the high level of payment was available so they're coining it.

Your first example proves my post to be correct. Your second one is totally lacking in facts so is meaningless.

[Evoluzione]

kambites said:

Evoluzione said:

Did you get a grant for that?

The FIT was essentially a grant.

Really he needs to be answering not you, although as far as i'm aware FIT (Feed in tariff) is not a grant.
I want you to educate the future readers of this thread with facts.

[Evoluzione]

caziques said:

Evoluzione said:

Air or ground source heat pumps

Are currently being partly financed by a government grant making them at least, interesting.
Ugly
Noisy
The heat they create is quite mild. This means you'll need a very, very well insulated (modern) house and need to put in suitably (large) sized radiators or underfloor heating to make use of it.
They make the least heat when you need the most (in Winter).
I'm thinking servicing costs could be quite low due to the small and basic moving parts and some R-410A refrigerant gas, but don't quote me on that.

Ugly - not relevant
Noisy - modern inverter units don't make much noise.
"The heat they create is quite mild". No, the greater the temperature difference to pump through, the lower the efficiency. Hence big radiators run at lower temperatures meaning lower running costs - which is why underfloor is so good with a heat pump. Maximum water temperature is 35.
If a heat pump system has ferrous materials it will need water treatment every couple of years. Get rid of ferrous, and there is minimal maintenance.
A hot water heat pump itself does not need servicing, only cleaning.

They are ugly, but given they can be hidden in a corner somewhere or round the back of the house i'd agree it's a non-issue.
They do make a noise. This won't be a problem in Winter when they are needed the most and in Summer when you're sat outside i'm presuming they won't be running (if all they are doing is heating the house), but don't honestly know that.
They do have a long life too, circa 25yrs which is a major plus point.

A max temp of 35'c is mild, it is not hot hence the need for UFH or radiator upgrade.
You also need a lot of land and for it to be dug up to lay the pipes in.
When they are needed the most (the colder it gets) they put out the least amount of heat. If the temp drops below 4 then you're actually paying more to run the thing than it pays you back in heat so you're in minus figures. So you need to factor in the cost of an additional heating system to help it through these periods.

[Evoluzione]

GetCarter said:

Evoluzione said:

Air or ground source heat pumps

Are currently being partly financed by a government grant making them at least, interesting.
Ugly
Noisy
The heat they create is quite mild. This means you'll need a very, very well insulated (modern) house and need to put in suitably (large) sized radiators or underfloor heating to make use of it.
They make the least heat when you need the most (in Winter).
I'm thinking servicing costs could be quite low due to the small and basic moving parts and some R-410A refrigerant gas, but don't quote me on that.

Edited by Evoluzione on Saturday 5th February 11:24

Here speaks someone who hasn't got a heat pump. What this person says is absolute nonsense. Air source are almost silent, they make the most savings when the weather is cold, and FYI they need sod all servicing. A check up every two years.

Not only did I get £10k grant to install, but I'm being paid nearly £6k over 5 years towards the electricity saved.

Just reading the post below, the grant was EST and the ongoing payments are RHI. (I am in Scotland, so don't know what happens down south).

One of my neighbours has one, i've stood near it, it makes a noise. It also needs help from other systems to heat their house.
What would be the total installation cost for the majority of us in our average houses? Your price should include:
Insulating the house adequately
Replacing existing rads or putting in new UFH.
The cost of those two alone is more than the grant itself.

[Evoluzione]

singlecoil said:

Government want us to reduce fuel consumption and good insulation has become a legal requirement on new builds.

If you want to reduce your energy consumption and bills and are unfortunate enough to have a home that is listed, and you want to fit double glazing you can fk off because it won't look quite so pretty to the people who don't live in it.

There is no blanket ban on DGUs on listed buildings Granted it is difficult to get them passed by British Heritage, but not always impossible, it's totally situation dependent. But then when you took a listed building on in the first place you knew what you were letting yourself in for.

You can fit secondary glazing and thick curtains. Yeah I know the former is not the same and it does spoil the look of the interior somewhat.

[Evoluzione]

MJNewton said:

Evoluzione said:

I'm going to put this in the FAQ up there ^ so would appreciate your time proven real life examples

Is that what your opening gambit is based on? It doesn't sound like it - it reads more that you've got an axe to grind, and a political one at that? No offence intended but you don't sound anywhere near knowledgeable enough on the subject to be writing answers to a FAQ on it.

Evanivitch said:

Someone lost the debate in the pub?

fuzzyyo said:

Your 'FAQ' is obviously written with prejudice. Renewables work very well for lots of people.

All totally useless comments.
I and anyone reading this in the future is not interested in your pointless wittering. I stated right from the start what I wanted and you couldn't manage it.

I want this to be a factual and relatively final and 'go to' educational debate on renewable energy as it stands today, February 2022.

You're quite wrong to state I have any political leanings or prejudices. What I (and the vast majority) want is cheaper fuel bills and to save the environment at the same time.
I want people to tell us that they have done that and exactly how they did it.

What I think at the moment is that we are paying for the damage past generations have done and to protect future generations.
I never said that was right or wrong, but I do believe its true.

[Evoluzione]

If you're thinking of solar then this may be worth a dabble:

https://honestquotes.co.uk/solar-panels/?source=MT...

No upfront costs, just pay them back monthly 'from as little as £25 per week'.

[Evoluzione]

GetCarter said:

Evoluzione said:

GetCarter said:

Evoluzione said:

Air or ground source heat pumps

Are currently being partly financed by a government grant making them at least, interesting.
Ugly
Noisy
The heat they create is quite mild. This means you'll need a very, very well insulated (modern) house and need to put in suitably (large) sized radiators or underfloor heating to make use of it.
They make the least heat when you need the most (in Winter).
I'm thinking servicing costs could be quite low due to the small and basic moving parts and some R-410A refrigerant gas, but don't quote me on that.

Edited by Evoluzione on Saturday 5th February 11:24

Here speaks someone who hasn't got a heat pump. What this person says is absolute nonsense. Air source are almost silent, they make the most savings when the weather is cold, and FYI they need sod all servicing. A check up every two years.

Not only did I get £10k grant to install, but I'm being paid nearly £6k over 5 years towards the electricity saved.

Just reading the post below, the grant was EST and the ongoing payments are RHI. (I am in Scotland, so don't know what happens down south).

One of my neighbours has one, i've stood near it, it makes a noise. It also needs help from other systems to heat their house.
What would be the total installation cost for the majority of us in our average houses? Your price should include:
Insulating the house adequately
Replacing existing rads or putting in new UFH.
The cost of those two alone is more than the grant itself.

If it needs help from other systems to heat the house it's either badly installed, or not the right install.

I live in the NW Highlands of Scotland (pretty much as north as Oslo) and my house is +/- 72F all winter and the hot water is scolding hot to the touch.

..and it sounds as loud as a fan (which is what it is).

Of course, if the house isn't insulated, you'll piss away money. Just less with a heat pump than other types of heating.

Which is why there is such a push to get them. It isn't for any other reason than they are more efficient.

Edited by GetCarter on Saturday 5th February 14:35

But no mention of total costs involved. Work involved, initial outlay, savings over X amount of time.
Anything can be made to work, but at what cost and is it worth it? That's what we want to know.

[Evoluzione]

fuzzyyo said:

Evoluzione said:

MJNewton said:

Evoluzione said:

I'm going to put this in the FAQ up there ^ so would appreciate your time proven real life examples

Is that what your opening gambit is based on? It doesn't sound like it - it reads more that you've got an axe to grind, and a political one at that? No offence intended but you don't sound anywhere near knowledgeable enough on the subject to be writing answers to a FAQ on it.

Evanivitch said:

Someone lost the debate in the pub?

fuzzyyo said:

Your 'FAQ' is obviously written with prejudice. Renewables work very well for lots of people.

All totally useless comments.
I and anyone reading this in the future is not interested in your pointless wittering. I stated right from the start what I wanted and you couldn't manage it.

I want this to be a factual and relatively final and 'go to' educational debate on renewable energy as it stands today, February 2022.

You're quite wrong to state I have any political leanings or prejudices. What I (and the vast majority) want is cheaper fuel bills and to save the environment at the same time.
I want people to tell us that they have done that and exactly how they did it.

What I think at the moment is that we are paying for the damage past generations have done and to protect future generations.
I never said that was right or wrong, but I do believe its true.

Shock as person posting to pistonheads is unable to perceive their own bias...!

Shock as forum person decides to post anything other than what is wanted from them, just so they can post something.

[Evoluzione]

Andeh1 said:

Evoluzione said:

4Q said:

So much wrong in the opening post. This is my area of expertise and I’ve tried in the past to post sensible unbiased facts about renewables, both benefits and pitfalls, but I’m tired with arguing with biased Ill informed people on here.

That's exactly why I started this thread we'll archive it so you don't have to do it again and again every week.
Please put forward your facts and hopefully a current real life example which has proved you to be correct.
I only want you do do it once and do it properly.

But your opening post didn't include facts or valid case studies, only subjective opinions from your point of view. Ugly? Noisy? Vibrations? Compared to what? Based upon what facts? Says who?

Evoluzione said:

So I would appreciate your time proven real life examples
Prove me wrong.

Go on then.

[Evoluzione]

Bacon Is Proof said:

Evoluzione said:

Go on then.

Ok.
I only have solar.
Electricity bill: 0.
I'm not even on the grid.

People typically look to answer the wrong question.
Don't look at how much power you use and then see if you can generate it, look at how much you generate and then work out how to use that.
Or
Solar isn't pointless because I can't run an electric car off it, the electric car is pointless as I don't generate enough.

Gas bill is about £15 per month, heating is logburner so free.

Thanks.
Are you in the UK?
How much did it cost?
How large is the panel area?
How are you creating enough electric on a dull day in WInter to power a whole house, or are you not?

[Evoluzione]

Bacon Is Proof said:

Evoluzione said:

Bacon Is Proof said:

Evoluzione said:

Go on then.

Ok.
I only have solar.
Electricity bill: 0.
I'm not even on the grid.

People typically look to answer the wrong question.
Don't look at how much power you use and then see if you can generate it, look at how much you generate and then work out how to use that.
Or
Solar isn't pointless because I can't run an electric car off it, the electric car is pointless as I don't generate enough.

Gas bill is about £15 per month, heating is logburner so free.

Thanks.
Are you in the UK?
How much did it cost?
How large is the panel area?
How are you creating enough electric on a dull day in WInter to power a whole house, or are you not?

Wrong question.
You need to change your attitude if you want to be more sustainable or save money.
How much electricity are you using right now?
I'm using none, save for the batteries in my mobile and modem.

Just another pointless post then really.

[Evoluzione]

Evanivitch said:

Bacon Is Proof said:

Gas bill is about £15 per month, heating is logburner so free.

But a log burner is both CO2 positive and a significant source of particulate matter...

It is renewable energy though.
Logs are not free. I get my logs for free, but i've still got process them so there is time and equipment involved.

[Evoluzione]

Interesting explanation about heatpumps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhAKMAcmJFg&ab...

Roger Bisby has been in the building trade for decades, he used to write in 'Professional Builder magazine' back in the 80s/90s so he isn't wet behind the ears.

[Evoluzione]

Bacon Is Proof said:

Evoluzione said:

Interesting

Is it interesting because it is in complete alignment with your views?
That's normally what people mean when they start a post with the word.
Am I right?

Personally I find new and differing ideas interesting, but each to their own.

So do I, they need to be more than interesting though, they need to work.
I threw down the gauntlet and if you read all of the posts in this thread then I think there is about 2 people who claim to have made it work in a way which applies to the majority of us here in the UK. His video answers many of the points put forward here that I didn't.

Traffic said:

So basically they work well in many house, but not all. Amazing insight.

Which is where some 90% of us here in the UK happen live. If that's all you took from it then you need to watch it again and open your ears this time.