Dog training - shock collars?

[Caractacus]

Great pics! Thanks for all the input

[Caractacus]

JumboBeef said:

Unbelievable.

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

1) walk 10 miles with the dog on a lead, no chance for him to go off putting up birds, smelling scents and other dogs (curtailing a good 20miles exercise for him

Now not only you admit to *sometimes* using a shock collar on your dog(s)...thankfully already illegal in some parts of the UK....you freely admit to breaching the code for dog walker in the countryside.

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/enjoying/...

Natural England said:

When you take your dog into the outdoors, always ensure it does not disturb wildlife, farm animals, horses or other people by keeping it under effective control. This means that you:

keep your dog on a lead, or
keep it in sight at all times, be aware of what it’s doing and be confident it will return to you promptly on command
ensure it does not stray off the path or area where you have a right of access

So, you're all right then. Stuff everyone else. You don't believe in leads so, what the heck, just let your dogs run riot.

Jumbo, enough already fella.

You're beginning to sound like a proper nimby do-gooder that will soon be shouting "What about the children?!"

Or, perish the thought, you'll be against 4x4's in the countryside soon (if not already) and will be buying a Toyota Prius.

[Caractacus]

auto1 said:

I don’t think I would like to use a shock collar on my dog. (Personal opinion)
But would it help in the following
I have a dog which is a nicely balanced dog no problems other than pulling at the lead and if let off the lead runs off big time.
I have always had a dog and have overcome the problem, in the past by conventional training, but this one seems imposable to get right.
We took it to puppy training when we first got it.
I have tried all the things that I can find on the net books etc. haltis long leads,etc
I have spent months stopping when it pulls and then moving on etc.
Now (sorry to be so long winded)
I feel the reason that this is happening is lack of exercise its no good walking it on a lead, cant let it go can’t find any ware secure to let it off.
The other dogs I could take to the beach and let them go and would come back to the call no probs but this one won’t.
I have garden that the dog will run around in but it’s not enough.
Any suggestions ,Thanks in advance
PS its 3 years old today

Edited by auto1 on Tuesday 1st January 13:00

Hi Auto,

Someone with more training knowledge will be along soon, no doubt, but even from my very limited experience and the info I have acquired on shock collars recently I'd have to say (imho) that this situation is not suitable for such a device. A different approach to training the pooch is they way forward.

Have you tried clicker and/or reward based training?

Cheers,

C.

[Caractacus]

Upatdawn said:

If an owner is prepared to wear one for a week and be "shocked" twice an hour they wouldnt put one on a dog, cruel and banned in Wales

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14181927

You dont train any animal with fear, basically they are a mini-taser

Your post makes no sense.

[Caractacus]

ehonda said:

I'm silly? You're the one bleating 'Daily Mail' just because you don't like someone taking issue with it.
I haven't argued about the existence of shock collars. I can buy one on amazon so I've no idea why anyone would argue that they exist.
Your reference to guns is pretty much like your approach to dog training, half arsed, lazy and inappropriate.

ehonda,

the idea of this thread is to educate. Initially me, as I had no clue whatsoever as to these devices and my initial reaction was on of the 'knee jerk' variety and it was borne out of ignorance.

Your comments do strike a chord with The Daily Wail style headlines/reporting; it is the manner of your disagreement, not the fact you are disagreeing.

What's more, your final comment is entirely out of order, lazy, ignorant, inappropriate and misinformed. Oh, it's also wrong, too.

HTH.

ETA - ehonda, I see the above posts now (had not refreshed the page) and yes, it is obviously an emotive subject. All the best with your new pooch - sounds lovely.

Edited by Caractacus on Thursday 3rd January 11:39

[Caractacus]

bexVN said:

Morningside said:

Watch @2:50. Worrying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bFEeFD98gE

This is exactly why they shouldn't be readily available. She hasn't got a clue. What I can't believe is that she carried on using it after it shocked her dog for a minute and how often is she using them if she is having to charge them most evenings???

And the problem is most people who will purchase them will be like her.

You've hit the nail on the head there, Bex. She really is clueless, lazy and ignorant. And your last comment is also true. Sadly.

How can such things be purchased purely by folk who know what they're doing and how to use them correctly? Is it down to the retailers? Should they only be made available through Vets? Like a prescription, perhaps? I really don't know, just throwing some ideas into the ring.

[Caractacus]

TIGERSIX said:

To the OP having had dogs for 50yrs all GSD I have never had need to resort to any training aid just time ,hence the old saying "a dog is only as good as its master"
Any GOOD trainer would never resort to shock collars .I've never had a bad GSD, in the last 25yrs I have always had resuced dogs and if you spend time with them as with children they respond to positive treatment.

Hi Tiger,

I agree wholeheartedly. In part, you may have uncovered part of a reason why they may be used. Time. Or more accurately, a lack of it.

Oh, also, out of pure interest, what do you mean you've never had to resort to any form of training aid? Clickers, treats, long leads, specialised collars, etc, etc?

[Caractacus]

TIGERSIX said:

Caractacus said:

Hi Tiger,

I agree wholeheartedly. In part, you may have uncovered part of a reason why they may be used. Time. Or more accurately, a lack of it.

Oh, also, out of pure interest, what do you mean you've never had to resort to any form of training aid? Clickers, treats, long leads, specialised collars, etc, etc?

No never used any training aids in any form just time, but after 50yrs with GSD you know within a little their breeds short comings,I have a malamute cross GSD now and it taken a year to retrain him (he was 6 when we rescued him).

Cool. Sorry, but I did have the wrong end of the stick (if you'll excuse the pun) as I thought you were a dog trainer, in as much as it was your paid job.

I've not used any treats, nor clickers with my two rescues - just praise. Collars and leads are used tho, of course. As how do you safely walk them off the property to 'heel' without first introducing them to such?

[Caractacus]

kVA said:

Ermm.. speak to any dog trainer that has kept up to date with current thinking and you will discover that the pack theory for domestic dogs was discredited years ago...

Even if it did apply, it works by making the 'victim' fearful of the one inflicting the punishment - not fearful of the behaviour itself... Is this the sort of relationship you want with your dog(s)? If so, you will never ever have one that I bred.

Interesting.

My post was in reference to a pack of hunting hounds, so don't take it out of context. Also, I was playing devils advocate

I was not aware that pack theory had been discredited though, so thanks for that. I am not a professional dog trainer, and I would not currently call myself an amateur dog trainer, either. However, I am very, very interested in learning about the best way to train dogs and also dog behaviour, in general. Hence the thread about shock collars (I had no experience and even less knowledge about them).

It would also seem I have inadvertently used a mixture of training methods with my dogs (present and past). Some 'pack theory' based (none of the physical stuff though) - walking through doors first, getting the dogs to move instead of having to walk round/over them, etc, however for the main it has always been loads of praise and the occasional treat/reward session.

On the subject of having a dog you bred? I don't think that'd be an issue as I love mixes/mongrels Anyway, I live in Carmarthenshire - the Puppy Farming (which is horrid, but that's another thread entirely) centre of Wales, I needn't go far if I changed my mind.

What do you breed, by the way?

Cheers,

C.

ETA - Had an interesting chat with someone from a very well known UK Dog Training Assoc yesterday. He disagrees with Pack Theory being written off in domestic dogs. In fact it would seem many disagree. He says it's semantics, essentially. What he doesn't agree with is violence towards dogs and he said that Pack Theory and the methods described of old do not need to be forever bedfellows.

It seems to be fashionable to follow the pack on such issues of writing off pack theory. Heck, this Cesar Milan chappie also seems rather popular, too. As for his methods?

Edited by Caractacus on Saturday 12th January 10:10