Two horses put down at the Grand National
Discussion
Jasandjules said:
The horses want to run. That's not to say that there is any reason why the fences can not be much lower so they don't actually get badly injured!!
I think its more to do with volume of horses on the course. Added to the fact that its not even a fair start and there are a few reasons to argue its not a fair race. 
R300will said:
Jasandjules said:
The horses want to run. That's not to say that there is any reason why the fences can not be much lower so they don't actually get badly injured!!
I think its more to do with volume of horses on the course. Added to the fact that its not even a fair start and there are a few reasons to argue its not a fair race. That's why they keep going with the pack even after the rider has fallen off and is rubbing his arse 1 mile back up the track!
The reason why they fall over is the jockeys unbalance them when they stumble where as normally they'd regain their footing. Also, lowering a fence won't make any difference as when a horse falls it's feet are usually on the ground first off.
Emeye said:
Funny how things change. 30 years ago it was acceptable for formula1 drivers to die. Now people get upset about a couple of horses getting put down....
I think that's a good thing. Don't get me wrong, if the jockey died it wouldn't really bother me, after all, they know the risks.balders118 said:
I stopped betting on horses after the 3 died last year. Also, a "tip" on a 66/1 outsider which won the race gave me a nice winning and also proved to me how corrupt racing is, so lost the insentive to bet on something which is so regularly staged!
Pass the tips on to me.............Jasandjules said:
Emeye said:
Funny how things change. 30 years ago it was acceptable for formula1 drivers to die. Now people get upset about a couple of horses getting put down....
I think that's a good thing. Don't get me wrong, if the jockey died it wouldn't really bother me, after all, they know the risks.Horse racing is an odd "sport".
It only exists because of gambling.
Normally gambling grows around a sport, but not the other way around.
Personally I hate the sport.
From the deaths at the National down to how foals are bred on an almost industrial scale so they can pick the best and slaughter the hundreds or even thousands that don't make the grade.
It only exists because of gambling.
Normally gambling grows around a sport, but not the other way around.
Personally I hate the sport.
From the deaths at the National down to how foals are bred on an almost industrial scale so they can pick the best and slaughter the hundreds or even thousands that don't make the grade.
Jasandjules said:
balders118 said:
I stopped betting on horses after the 3 died last year. Also, a "tip" on a 66/1 outsider which won the race gave me a nice winning and also proved to me how corrupt racing is, so lost the insentive to bet on something which is so regularly staged!
Pass the tips on to me.............balders118 said:
I stopped betting on horses after the 3 died last year. Also, a "tip" on a 66/1 outsider which won the race gave me a nice winning and also proved to me how corrupt racing is, so lost the insentive to bet on something which is so regularly staged!
Hmmm. I'm fairly close to the racing world, and know there are some bad apples out there. However, I can't believe the National can be rigged... The amount of variables are just incomprehensible, hence such good odds for the favourites.OK, I very VERY rarely step into a debate here but this is one I can't ignore. 
There are all manner of reasons why a broken leg in a horse - from the smallest and most docile/inactive to the fittest and most flighty racehorse - is in the majority of cases incapable of effective repair and usually fatal either at/very soon after the event.
Cost is a factor. This is true of many treatments, not least including those for humans.
The physiology and physiology of the animal are by far and away the most significant however. That is despite the investment of much resource over many years to improve the odds of recovery.
In simple terms, horses are very, very bad patients - as 'flight' animals, whose instinctive reaction to stress is to run and if unable to do so, panic and attempt to become able to run asap - the odds are very strongly stacked against their remaining still and removing weight from an injured limb for the required recover period. Coupled with a tendency to develop complications such as pneumonia and serious (life threatening) conditions in the other limbs required to support the weight removed from the injured limb, the odds are further stacked against successful recovery.
Wishful thinking aside, it just ain't that easy.
Put into the mix the fact in the case of a racehorse injured on course you are dealing with an animal at the peak of physical fitness, pumped full of adrenaline and in the brief window of blissful ignorance of the existence/pain of its injury - if you can justify attempting a slow, painful, stressful and likely unsuccessful recovery rather than a quick and painless dispatch, you inhabit a different planet to me.
An example here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbaro - injured in an obviously life-threatening manner on 20 May 2006, put to sleep 29 January 2007. I admire the tenacity of those involved in his attempted recovery and as anyone involved with horses am grateful for the advances in knowledge his treatment may have secured. But don't ask me to believe that at some point between injury and ending that animal did not suffer. Comparing his performance on the racecourse to his ability to 'walk' during recovery is a lesson in itself. YouTube has both, if interested.
Apologies for the lack of brevity of the above. I'm not naive enough not to believe there isn't good and bad in the industry, but it really, really gets my goat when suggested that all those involved in racing are motivated simply by cold hard cash and think nothing of treating their charges as disposable when there are alternatives. There ain't.
To finish, a personal plea to avoid wheeling out the horsedeathwatch linky if at all possible? The image used is utterly horrific and designed to provoke a reaction, which no doubt it always gets. It is (as far as I know) at least 15 years old, and speaking personally I'd be pretty damn upset not to mention angry if an image of an injured animal of mine was bandied about on the internet to promote the cause of others against me. Have a heart?
For information, if interested, the above is the rather peeved ramblings of someone who has been personally involved in racehorse ownership (at a VERY low level indeed), witnessed said horse injured (happily recoverable, though did not race again) and unhappily witnessed many fatal racecourse injuries, including one every bit as horrific as that referred to above. One is frankly too many.
Risk exists in every sport. Every activity, in fact. It would be a much, much sadder and smaller world if yet more were done to wrap every surface and object in yet more cotton wool. Surely we can agree on that here?
There are all manner of reasons why a broken leg in a horse - from the smallest and most docile/inactive to the fittest and most flighty racehorse - is in the majority of cases incapable of effective repair and usually fatal either at/very soon after the event.
Cost is a factor. This is true of many treatments, not least including those for humans.
The physiology and physiology of the animal are by far and away the most significant however. That is despite the investment of much resource over many years to improve the odds of recovery.
In simple terms, horses are very, very bad patients - as 'flight' animals, whose instinctive reaction to stress is to run and if unable to do so, panic and attempt to become able to run asap - the odds are very strongly stacked against their remaining still and removing weight from an injured limb for the required recover period. Coupled with a tendency to develop complications such as pneumonia and serious (life threatening) conditions in the other limbs required to support the weight removed from the injured limb, the odds are further stacked against successful recovery.
Wishful thinking aside, it just ain't that easy.
Put into the mix the fact in the case of a racehorse injured on course you are dealing with an animal at the peak of physical fitness, pumped full of adrenaline and in the brief window of blissful ignorance of the existence/pain of its injury - if you can justify attempting a slow, painful, stressful and likely unsuccessful recovery rather than a quick and painless dispatch, you inhabit a different planet to me.
An example here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbaro - injured in an obviously life-threatening manner on 20 May 2006, put to sleep 29 January 2007. I admire the tenacity of those involved in his attempted recovery and as anyone involved with horses am grateful for the advances in knowledge his treatment may have secured. But don't ask me to believe that at some point between injury and ending that animal did not suffer. Comparing his performance on the racecourse to his ability to 'walk' during recovery is a lesson in itself. YouTube has both, if interested.
Apologies for the lack of brevity of the above. I'm not naive enough not to believe there isn't good and bad in the industry, but it really, really gets my goat when suggested that all those involved in racing are motivated simply by cold hard cash and think nothing of treating their charges as disposable when there are alternatives. There ain't.
To finish, a personal plea to avoid wheeling out the horsedeathwatch linky if at all possible? The image used is utterly horrific and designed to provoke a reaction, which no doubt it always gets. It is (as far as I know) at least 15 years old, and speaking personally I'd be pretty damn upset not to mention angry if an image of an injured animal of mine was bandied about on the internet to promote the cause of others against me. Have a heart?
For information, if interested, the above is the rather peeved ramblings of someone who has been personally involved in racehorse ownership (at a VERY low level indeed), witnessed said horse injured (happily recoverable, though did not race again) and unhappily witnessed many fatal racecourse injuries, including one every bit as horrific as that referred to above. One is frankly too many.
Risk exists in every sport. Every activity, in fact. It would be a much, much sadder and smaller world if yet more were done to wrap every surface and object in yet more cotton wool. Surely we can agree on that here?
R300will said:
Jasandjules said:
The horses want to run. That's not to say that there is any reason why the fences can not be much lower so they don't actually get badly injured!!
I think its more to do with volume of horses on the course. Added to the fact that its not even a fair start and there are a few reasons to argue its not a fair race. No idea if this is right but it sounds plausible.
What upsets me is I have friends who placed silly one pound bets, because that's what people for the National, they were so proud to win there rubbish payouts not a thought to the dead or injured horses.
I'm proud to say I've never bet on the National (or any horse race for that matter!)
Edited by bexVN on Saturday 14th April 21:43
EvoDelta said:
balders118 said:
I stopped betting on horses after the 3 died last year. Also, a "tip" on a 66/1 outsider which won the race gave me a nice winning and also proved to me how corrupt racing is, so lost the insentive to bet on something which is so regularly staged!
Hmmm. I'm fairly close to the racing world, and know there are some bad apples out there. However, I can't believe the National can be rigged... The amount of variables are just incomprehensible, hence such good odds for the favourites.
balders118 said:
You're probably right but if I were to be more clear I meant.. I stopped betting on the grand national because of horses dying and I stopped betting on other races because I didn't believe them to be genuine.
Fair enough. I'm not a big gambler any more. I would however be happier putting my money on horse rather than the majority of other sports in which human intervention occurs.EvoDelta said:
Fair enough. I'm not a big gambler any more. I would however be happier putting my money on horse rather than the majority of other sports in which human intervention occurs.
I'm the opposite. As someone said earlier the only reason horses are so popular is because of gambling which means there is lots of scope for fixing IMO. I'd have thought there would be vastly more fixed horse races than most other sports put together.balders118 said:
EvoDelta said:
Fair enough. I'm not a big gambler any more. I would however be happier putting my money on horse rather than the majority of other sports in which human intervention occurs.
I'm the opposite. As someone said earlier the only reason horses are so popular is because of gambling which means there is lots of scope for fixing IMO. I'd have thought there would be vastly more fixed horse races than most other sports put together.EvoDelta said:
I'm no master on the subject, but with an average field of 12-15 runners a horse race must be more difficult to orchestrate a win than a game with only two sides, such as football.
I'm not an expert either, I just have the opposite opinion 
. I'd have thought fixing a football match would be much harder as you'd either have to get two rival teams to cooperate including managers etc, or have a dodgy keeper which would make throwing the game not 100%, and also pretty obvious I'd have thought. Having saif that I watched the race I mentioned ealier and all the other horses literally moved out the way for the winner, looked very blatent if you were looking for it.balders118 said:
I'm not an expert either, I just have the opposite opinion . I'd have thought fixing a football match would be much harder as you'd either have to get two rival teams to cooperate including managers etc, or have a dodgy keeper which would make throwing the game not 100%, and also pretty obvious I'd have thought. Having saif that I watched the race I mentioned ealier and all the other horses literally moved out the way for the winner, looked very blatent if you were looking for it.
Maybe this has all gone a bit off topic anyway, but I'm happy to agree to disagree. Unfortunately, there will always be complete tossers who try and gain unfairly out of sport. Maybe I'm too close to horse racing to see it, but I just hope it's not as bad as elsewhere.. I'd have thought fixing a football match would be much harder as you'd either have to get two rival teams to cooperate including managers etc, or have a dodgy keeper which would make throwing the game not 100%, and also pretty obvious I'd have thought. Having saif that I watched the race I mentioned ealier and all the other horses literally moved out the way for the winner, looked very blatent if you were looking for it.Gassing Station | All Creatures Great & Small | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff