Aggressive terrier

Author
Discussion

bexVN

14,682 posts

213 months

Thursday 2nd December 2010
quotequote all
Being entire will sometimes increase the chance of aggression with other entire males but it's also because he has actually been a stud dog, this will increase this sort of behaviour.

Did you give the injection a go, I would give it a go if your vet agrees, could be very useful information gained from it.

JohnnyJones

Original Poster:

1,737 posts

180 months

Thursday 2nd December 2010
quotequote all
I asked my vet, he said the best thing is a slow release capsule that lasts 6 months. It's £50 and I think I'm going to try it.

As you say it will be a useful experiment however it goes.

nick_j007

1,598 posts

204 months

Thursday 2nd December 2010
quotequote all
Hi again.

In any event I do encourage you to set about introduction a muzzle to him for short and maybe longer term safety. PM me for a guide to this if you'd like one.

My own vet is rather disparaging about this insert treatment and its effectiveness, and in any event I would just go ahead and castrate given the description of aggression towards entire males whether on or off lead.

Vets always advise castration, as that's all they can invariably offer you . They're not trained for behaviour. Male dog problem? We can castrate! Nervous, dominant?...We can castrate...get the picture?

I also feel I should add that I have seen and heard about a fair share of male dogs deteriorating in the their behaviour post castration, so keep your mind very open.

Best.

Nick

bexVN

14,682 posts

213 months

Thursday 2nd December 2010
quotequote all
^^Excuse me, get your facts right, vets do not ALWAYS adv castrate for everything, many vets recognise that this is not the answer to every behaviour exhibited. We work very closely with a couple of good behaviourists and like to think the respect is mutual.

Why do you think the hormone tx has been suggested (though not sure why your vet has gone for the slow release option, does he feel it'll be more accurate assessment), no point castrating if it makes no difference esp as this dog is used to breed from. However if it does work then castrate would be the option and he'd have to forego his life as a stud.

Edited by bexVN on Thursday 2nd December 20:09

JohnnyJones

Original Poster:

1,737 posts

180 months

Thursday 2nd December 2010
quotequote all
nick_j007 said:
Hi again.

In any event I do encourage you to set about introduction a muzzle to him for short and maybe longer term safety. PM me for a guide to this if you'd like one.

My own vet is rather disparaging about this insert treatment and its effectiveness, and in any event I would just go ahead and castrate given the description of aggression towards entire males whether on or off lead.

Vets always advise castration, as that's all they can invariably offer you . They're not trained for behaviour. Male dog problem? We can castrate! Nervous, dominant?...We can castrate...get the picture?

I also feel I should add that I have seen and heard about a fair share of male dogs deteriorating in the their behaviour post castration, so keep your mind very open.

Best.

Nick
Are you all there?

You advise me to castrate.

Then you warn me about vets who advise to castrate as they don't know what they're talking about behaviour wise.

(Ignoring the fact that my vet DIDN'T advise castration.)

Then you tell me that castrated dogs can have behaviour problems?

Too many contradictions in one post for my liking.

I tell you what, I'll do it my way.


Edited by JohnnyJones on Thursday 2nd December 20:13

JohnnyJones

Original Poster:

1,737 posts

180 months

Thursday 2nd December 2010
quotequote all
bexVN said:
^^Excuse me, get your facts right, vets do not ALWAYS adv castrate for everything, many vets recognise that this is not the answer to every behaviour exhibited. It's behaviourists like you that vets could do without, we work very closely with a couple of good behaviourists and like to think the respect is mutual.

Why do you think the hormone tx has been suggested (though not sure why your vet has gone for the slow release option, does he feel it'll be more accurate assessment, no point castrating if it makes no difference esp as this dog is used to breed from. However if it does work then castrate would be the option and he'd have to forego his life as a stud.
My vet thinks that a week isn't long enough for the dog to get his hormones out of his system and relearn his behaviour afterwards.

What do you think?

bexVN

14,682 posts

213 months

Thursday 2nd December 2010
quotequote all
JohnnyJones said:
bexVN said:
^^Excuse me, get your facts right, vets do not ALWAYS adv castrate for everything, many vets recognise that this is not the answer to every behaviour exhibited. It's behaviourists like you that vets could do without, we work very closely with a couple of good behaviourists and like to think the respect is mutual.

Why do you think the hormone tx has been suggested (though not sure why your vet has gone for the slow release option, does he feel it'll be more accurate assessment, no point castrating if it makes no difference esp as this dog is used to breed from. However if it does work then castrate would be the option and he'd have to forego his life as a stud.
My vet thinks that a week isn't long enough for the dog to get his hormones out of his system and relearn his behaviour afterwards.

What do you think?
I'm not so famililar with the slow release product, I've only seen it used for the tx of an anal adenoma in an entire male.

I have seen Tardak used quite a lot, the effect usually lasts 4-6 weeks which I think is enough time to know if permanent solution is the answer. Often used when males live with entire females to suppress the'urge' and seems to work well for this. Have also seen it used for the same reason as your needs and can be very noticeable improvements.

However if your vet doesn't stock it he'd have to order in a bottle that you may need to pay for, which will be expensive.

Edited by bexVN on Thursday 2nd December 20:56

nick_j007

1,598 posts

204 months

Thursday 2nd December 2010
quotequote all
JohnnyJones said:
nick_j007 said:
Hi again.

In any event I do encourage you to set about introduction a muzzle to him for short and maybe longer term safety. PM me for a guide to this if you'd like one.

My own vet is rather disparaging about this insert treatment and its effectiveness, and in any event I would just go ahead and castrate given the description of aggression towards entire males whether on or off lead.

Vets always advise castration, as that's all they can invariably offer you . They're not trained for behaviour. Male dog problem? We can castrate! Nervous, dominant?...We can castrate...get the picture?

I also feel I should add that I have seen and heard about a fair share of male dogs deteriorating in the their behaviour post castration, so keep your mind very open.

Best.

Nick
Are you all there?

You advise me to castrate.

Then you warn me about vets who advise to castrate as they don't know what they're talking about behaviour wise.

(Ignoring the fact that my vet DIDN'T advise castration.)

Then you tell me that castrated dogs can have behaviour problems?

Too many contradictions in one post for my liking.

I tell you what, I'll do it my way.


Edited by JohnnyJones on Thursday 2nd December 20:13
That's fine, do it your way smile You should always do it your way. It's your dog. You came here asking for answers. Regrettably with dogs there are rarely exact answers.

The the reason for so many contradictions is that there is NO singular right or wrong way. I'm just trying to offer up a balanced view (sorry if it was contradictory...balance is full of contradiction).

As I've said, feel free for a relaxed natter on the phone if you wish.

Cheers,

Nick

nick_j007

1,598 posts

204 months

Thursday 2nd December 2010
quotequote all
bexVN said:
^^Excuse me, get your facts right, vets do not ALWAYS adv castrate for everything, many vets recognise that this is not the answer to every behaviour exhibited. We work very closely with a couple of good behaviourists and like to think the respect is mutual.

Why do you think the hormone tx has been suggested (though not sure why your vet has gone for the slow release option, does he feel it'll be more accurate assessment), no point castrating if it makes no difference esp as this dog is used to breed from. However if it does work then castrate would be the option and he'd have to forego his life as a stud.

Edited by bexVN on Thursday 2nd December 20:09
Ok, I stand corrected. I'll change 'always' to 'invariably'.

To the OP. Just to add to the storm that seems to be brewing by my posts. If the parent dog (yours) is aggressive...I would not breed from it anyway- period, hence adding to my thinking that castration would be (one of) your best bets in this instance. Aggression to uncastrated males is a behaviour I have seen improved with my own eyes - with my own clients - as a result of castration. Again, there are no guarantees, but on balance I would do it.

I sincerely urge you to introduce a muzzle to be safe on a number of levels in any event.

Thanks,

Nick

Edited by nick_j007 on Thursday 2nd December 22:26

bexVN

14,682 posts

213 months

Thursday 2nd December 2010
quotequote all
nick_j007 said:
bexVN said:
^^Excuse me, get your facts right, vets do not ALWAYS adv castrate for everything, many vets recognise that this is not the answer to every behaviour exhibited. We work very closely with a couple of good behaviourists and like to think the respect is mutual.

Why do you think the hormone tx has been suggested (though not sure why your vet has gone for the slow release option, does he feel it'll be more accurate assessment), no point castrating if it makes no difference esp as this dog is used to breed from. However if it does work then castrate would be the option and he'd have to forego his life as a stud.

Edited by bexVN on Thursday 2nd December 20:09
Ok, I stand corrected. I'll change 'always' to 'invariably'.

To the OP. Just to add to the storm that seems to be brewing by posts. If the parent dog (yours) is aggressive...I would not breed from it, period.

Nick
I did consider this as well but this dog is only displaying aggression to other entire males, not females or neutered males, which does occur in male studs. Plus the agression traits are more thought to pass on from the bh rather than the sire. If this dog showed a more generalised aggression then I would agree absolutely no way it should be a stud dog.

nick_j007

1,598 posts

204 months

Thursday 2nd December 2010
quotequote all
Maybe we stray from the heart of the issue here?

On balance I recommend castration, and to stop poncing about with hormonal implants.

The dog is 5 yrs of age, has been practicing this behaviour for 2 yrs whether on or off the lead. He behaves aggressively without reservation 'on sight' of castrated male dogs. When you see that first hand it's hard to deal with, and as the OP states is 'embarrassing'...to say the least. In my experience such behaviour often 'overspills' into other situations with other dogs (of varying sexes, ages and neutered status) away from the description the OP offers...bare that in mind re male v's female stud dogs, though I accept the point the vet nurse makes re bhes carrying the dominant nature of aggressive behaviour.

Castration, implants and muzzles are all red herrings here....though play a part in the equation.

If you're looking for a long term solution, You will in fact need the help of an experienced behaviourist used to dealing with aggression.

IF you are not looking to go to such an expense, then you will need to look at management and safety measures. It's as simple as that. I have already offered my thoughts re this aspect. You haven't responded to my muzzle introduction comments as yet.

Though being a dog behaviourist dealing mostly in dog aggression, I am not seeking your business, just to be up front and clear smile

I simply wanted to offer my thoughts from a practical, working point of view as a fellow PH'er.

Thanks,

Nick

JohnnyJones

Original Poster:

1,737 posts

180 months

Thursday 2nd December 2010
quotequote all
nick_j007 said:
JohnnyJones said:
nick_j007 said:
Hi again.

In any event I do encourage you to set about introduction a muzzle to him for short and maybe longer term safety. PM me for a guide to this if you'd like one.

My own vet is rather disparaging about this insert treatment and its effectiveness, and in any event I would just go ahead and castrate given the description of aggression towards entire males whether on or off lead.

Vets always advise castration, as that's all they can invariably offer you . They're not trained for behaviour. Male dog problem? We can castrate! Nervous, dominant?...We can castrate...get the picture?

I also feel I should add that I have seen and heard about a fair share of male dogs deteriorating in the their behaviour post castration, so keep your mind very open.

Best.

Nick
Are you all there?

You advise me to castrate.

Then you warn me about vets who advise to castrate as they don't know what they're talking about behaviour wise.

(Ignoring the fact that my vet DIDN'T advise castration.)

Then you tell me that castrated dogs can have behaviour problems?

Too many contradictions in one post for my liking.

I tell you what, I'll do it my way.


Edited by JohnnyJones on Thursday 2nd December 20:13
That's fine, do it your way smile You should always do it your way. It's your dog. You came here asking for answers. Regrettably with dogs there are rarely exact answers.

The the reason for so many contradictions is that there is NO singular right or wrong way. I'm just trying to offer up a balanced view (sorry if it was contradictory...balance is full of contradiction).

As I've said, feel free for a relaxed natter on the phone if you wish.

Cheers,

Nick
If there is no right or wrong way, and you're trying to give me a balanced view, which is necessarily contradictory, then I really think you have nothing to say which will help me.

There is no need for contradiction. It is a fairly straightforward problem.

I didn't come here looking for answers, I asked for ideas as I have an unusual problem.


JohnnyJones

Original Poster:

1,737 posts

180 months

Thursday 2nd December 2010
quotequote all
nick_j007 said:
Maybe we stray from the heart of the issue here?

On balance I recommend castration, and to stop poncing about with hormonal implants.

The dog is 5 yrs of age, has been practicing this behaviour for 2 yrs whether on or off the lead. He behaves aggressively without reservation 'on sight' of castrated male dogs. When you see that first hand it's hard to deal with, and as the OP states is 'embarrassing'...to say the least. In my experience such behaviour often 'overspills' into other situations with other dogs (of varying sexes, ages and neutered status) away from the description the OP offers...bare that in mind re male v's female stud dogs, though I accept the point the vet nurse makes re bhes carrying the dominant nature of aggressive behaviour.

Castration, implants and muzzles are all red herrings here....though play a part in the equation.

If you're looking for a long term solution, You will in fact need the help of an experienced behaviourist used to dealing with aggression.

IF you are not looking to go to such an expense, then you will need to look at management and safety measures. It's as simple as that. I have already offered my thoughts re this aspect. You haven't responded to my muzzle introduction comments as yet.

Though being a dog behaviourist dealing mostly in dog aggression, I am not seeking your business, just to be up front and clear smile

I simply wanted to offer my thoughts from a practical, working point of view as a fellow PH'er.

Thanks,

Nick
Nick,

I am struggling to take you seriously.

What qualifications do you have as a dog behaviourist?

If you are a behaviourist dealing mostly in dog aggression as you state, what are your credentials / qualifications?

Have you any success with non-fear induced aggression?

Do you understand how and why these dogs are / were bred, and do you understand that in rural areas these traits are seen as good?

Where do you practice from?

Interested,

John.


nick_j007

1,598 posts

204 months

Thursday 2nd December 2010
quotequote all
JohnnyJones said:
nick_j007 said:
Maybe we stray from the heart of the issue here?

On balance I recommend castration, and to stop poncing about with hormonal implants.

The dog is 5 yrs of age, has been practicing this behaviour for 2 yrs whether on or off the lead. He behaves aggressively without reservation 'on sight' of castrated male dogs. When you see that first hand it's hard to deal with, and as the OP states is 'embarrassing'...to say the least. In my experience such behaviour often 'overspills' into other situations with other dogs (of varying sexes, ages and neutered status) away from the description the OP offers...bare that in mind re male v's female stud dogs, though I accept the point the vet nurse makes re bhes carrying the dominant nature of aggressive behaviour.

Castration, implants and muzzles are all red herrings here....though play a part in the equation.

If you're looking for a long term solution, You will in fact need the help of an experienced behaviourist used to dealing with aggression.

IF you are not looking to go to such an expense, then you will need to look at management and safety measures. It's as simple as that. I have already offered my thoughts re this aspect. You haven't responded to my muzzle introduction comments as yet.

Though being a dog behaviourist dealing mostly in dog aggression, I am not seeking your business, just to be up front and clear smile

I simply wanted to offer my thoughts from a practical, working point of view as a fellow PH'er.

Thanks,

Nick
Nick,

I am struggling to take you seriously.

What qualifications do you have as a dog behaviourist?

If you are a behaviourist dealing mostly in dog aggression as you state, what are your credentials / qualifications?

Have you any success with non-fear induced aggression?

Do you understand how and why these dogs are / were bred, and do you understand that in rural areas these traits are seen as good?

Where do you practice from?

Interested,

John.

nick_j007

1,598 posts

204 months

Friday 3rd December 2010
quotequote all
JohnnyJones said:
nick_j007 said:
Maybe we stray from the heart of the issue here?

On balance I recommend castration, and to stop poncing about with hormonal implants.

The dog is 5 yrs of age, has been practising this behaviour for 2 yrs whether on or off the lead. He behaves aggressively without reservation 'on sight' of castrated male dogs. When you see that first hand it's hard to deal with, and as the OP states is 'embarrassing'...to say the least. In my experience such behaviour often 'overspills' into other situations with other dogs (of varying sexes, ages and neutered status) away from the description the OP offers...bare that in mind re male v's female stud dogs, though I accept the point the vet nurse makes re bhes carrying the dominant nature of aggressive behaviour.

Castration, implants and muzzles are all red herrings here....though play a part in the equation.

If you're looking for a long term solution, You will in fact need the help of an experienced behaviourist used to dealing with aggression.

IF you are not looking to go to such an expense, then you will need to look at management and safety measures. It's as simple as that. I have already offered my thoughts re this aspect. You haven't responded to my muzzle introduction comments as yet.

Though being a dog behaviourist dealing mostly in dog aggression, I am not seeking your business, just to be up front and clear smile

I simply wanted to offer my thoughts from a practical, working point of view as a fellow PH'er.

Thanks,

Nick
Nick,

I am struggling to take you seriously.

What qualifications do you have as a dog behaviourist?

If you are a behaviourist dealing mostly in dog aggression as you state, what are your credentials / qualifications?

Have you any success with non-fear induced aggression?

Do you understand how and why these dogs are / were bred, and do you understand that in rural areas these traits are seen as good?

Where do you practice from?

Interested,

John.
Hello John,

You'll find all those answers in my profile web link. Have you looked? I guess not based on your questions.

These traits are only seen as 'good' in a certain context. It seems to me that you want it both ways...to be a good working dog (aggressive, fearless and all that) yet to be good with other dog when it happens in your secluded environment. This is again why I point you to correct management at certain times in certain locations.

Off to bed now QT has finished.

Thanks.

Nick

JohnnyJones

Original Poster:

1,737 posts

180 months

Saturday 4th December 2010
quotequote all
nick_j007 said:
JohnnyJones said:
nick_j007 said:
Maybe we stray from the heart of the issue here?

On balance I recommend castration, and to stop poncing about with hormonal implants.

The dog is 5 yrs of age, has been practising this behaviour for 2 yrs whether on or off the lead. He behaves aggressively without reservation 'on sight' of castrated male dogs. When you see that first hand it's hard to deal with, and as the OP states is 'embarrassing'...to say the least. In my experience such behaviour often 'overspills' into other situations with other dogs (of varying sexes, ages and neutered status) away from the description the OP offers...bare that in mind re male v's female stud dogs, though I accept the point the vet nurse makes re bhes carrying the dominant nature of aggressive behaviour.

Castration, implants and muzzles are all red herrings here....though play a part in the equation.

If you're looking for a long term solution, You will in fact need the help of an experienced behaviourist used to dealing with aggression.

IF you are not looking to go to such an expense, then you will need to look at management and safety measures. It's as simple as that. I have already offered my thoughts re this aspect. You haven't responded to my muzzle introduction comments as yet.

Though being a dog behaviourist dealing mostly in dog aggression, I am not seeking your business, just to be up front and clear smile

I simply wanted to offer my thoughts from a practical, working point of view as a fellow PH'er.

Thanks,

Nick
Nick,

I am struggling to take you seriously.

What qualifications do you have as a dog behaviourist?

If you are a behaviourist dealing mostly in dog aggression as you state, what are your credentials / qualifications?

Have you any success with non-fear induced aggression?

Do you understand how and why these dogs are / were bred, and do you understand that in rural areas these traits are seen as good?

Where do you practice from?

Interested,

John.
Hello John,

You'll find all those answers in my profile web link. Have you looked? I guess not based on your questions.

These traits are only seen as 'good' in a certain context. It seems to me that you want it both ways...to be a good working dog (aggressive, fearless and all that) yet to be good with other dog when it happens in your secluded environment. This is again why I point you to correct management at certain times in certain locations.

Off to bed now QT has finished.

Thanks.

Nick
No help.

You haven't pointed me to "correct management at certain times in certain locations" at all.

You said I should castrate him immediately, but you also said: "That might cause further behavioural issues".

And I don't fancy a 'relaxed chat' thanks, I'll be fine.