Who's going skiing and where? 23-24
Discussion
shirt said:
if you had to buy boots without a fitting, what would you look for? are heat formed liners a thing? would love to go somewhere to be fitted but not much call for ski boots in the desert.
Measure your feet - length & width accurately. Then figure out what width fitting you want.General advice is if you're borderline go down 1/2 a side rather than up.
Then I'd look for boots that are heat mouldable - I bought Atomic Hawx - both the shells & liners can go (separately) into the oven and you put them on warm to mould them to your feet. It will require some juggling if you just have one oven - and you need to wear them until cool, but it can all be done at home. There are videos on Youtube.
Also, if you've ever had boots fitted before, you'll probably already know, but try to stick a few bits of extra padding on the widest touch points. Just for the fitting. So places like the ankle bones, and the widest part of your foot behind the toes etc.
why the extra padding? generally i like a close fitting shoe, don't like roomy toe boxes etc.
issue for me is that i want high end features [closures, materials] but not high end [aggressive] performance. wondering whether a decent freestyle boot would be the better solution in this regard.
issue for me is that i want high end features [closures, materials] but not high end [aggressive] performance. wondering whether a decent freestyle boot would be the better solution in this regard.
Edited by shirt on Tuesday 11th July 09:08
shirt said:
also, if you had to buy boots without a fitting, what would you look for? are heat formed liners a thing? would love to go somewhere to be fitted but not much call for ski boots in the desert.
A very simple one - don't. Effectivly you're just walking into a shoe shop and grabbing the first pair that looks to be about the right size and expecting them to fit - and in the case of ski boots fit very well.I'm assuming you're not just buying them to make some odd desert fashion statement but to ski in them so keep your powder dry and buy them in resort the next time you go skiing. Post one the snowheads.com site and you should be able to get recommendations of boot fitters in most resorts.
As for heat formed liners there are a few random gimmics like that but just an attempt to make up for buying the wrong boots. Heat molded footbeds are available and highly recommended though.
//j17 said:
shirt said:
also, if you had to buy boots without a fitting, what would you look for? are heat formed liners a thing? would love to go somewhere to be fitted but not much call for ski boots in the desert.
A very simple one - don't. Effectivly you're just walking into a shoe shop and grabbing the first pair that looks to be about the right size and expecting them to fit - and in the case of ski boots fit very well.I'm assuming you're not just buying them to make some odd desert fashion statement but to ski in them so keep your powder dry and buy them in resort the next time you go skiing. Post one the snowheads.com site and you should be able to get recommendations of boot fitters in most resorts.
As for heat formed liners there are a few random gimmics like that but just an attempt to make up for buying the wrong boots. Heat molded footbeds are available and highly recommended though.
also does seem to me [cynic mode] that there's an element of marketing involved, the same with any sport or hobby with specialised equipment. its the cheap beginner stuff that's crap whereas a high quality product would suit 90% of hobbyist users regardless of brand.
//j17 said:
shirt said:
also, if you had to buy boots without a fitting, what would you look for? are heat formed liners a thing? would love to go somewhere to be fitted but not much call for ski boots in the desert.
A very simple one - don't. Effectivly you're just walking into a shoe shop and grabbing the first pair that looks to be about the right size and expecting them to fit - and in the case of ski boots fit very well.I'm assuming you're not just buying them to make some odd desert fashion statement but to ski in them so keep your powder dry and buy them in resort the next time you go skiing. Post one the snowheads.com site and you should be able to get recommendations of boot fitters in most resorts.
As for heat formed liners there are a few random gimmics like that but just an attempt to make up for buying the wrong boots. Heat molded footbeds are available and highly recommended though.
However - I'm a very rare individual with what boot fitters call a 'normal' foot. I had worn out a previous pair of Scarpa boots and know they fit me and which size to go for.
They come with an Intuition liner which is heat mouldable but this is a fairly thin performance liner not designed to compensate for a fundamentally non fitting shell - I had to buy the fitting kit from the States for $10 and followed the instructions which involved microwaving a 'sock' full of uncooked rice for 5 mins and then dropping that into the boot. Then applying spacers to my toes and ankles and fitting the boot. (very hot and painful)
This was a gamble I got away with. These fit me very well but still needed the usual tweak over the head of the 5th MTP joint.
My next boots were a 2 hour shop appointment and another hour for tweaks after that.
shirt said:
it's price and perhaps limited range that put me off leaving it til the resort. the desert comment is that i live in one, there's nowhere i can try on without having to take a flight.
also does seem to me [cynic mode] that there's an element of marketing involved, the same with any sport or hobby with specialised equipment. its the cheap beginner stuff that's crap whereas a high quality product would suit 90% of hobbyist users regardless of brand.
+1 for putting a post on Snowheads an getting a recommendation for in resort fitting.also does seem to me [cynic mode] that there's an element of marketing involved, the same with any sport or hobby with specialised equipment. its the cheap beginner stuff that's crap whereas a high quality product would suit 90% of hobbyist users regardless of brand.
Any bricks and mortar shop you will be paying closer to the RRP because of the additinal costs involved but IMO a good fit is worth far more than a few hundred quid discount. Good fitters will tweak the fit whilst you are there
It doesn't really matter about the range of boots available. An experienced fitter will look at your foot and know which manufacturer's shell is most suited. This may mean only they only need three different manufacturers to cover the spectrum. The rest is customer 'choice'. There are fewer boot makers than brands IYSWIM. That being said resort shops are likely to carry a big range.
There's lots of differences between beginner and expert boots; the main one being stiffness. As boots get stiffer, the fit is less forgiving. As your skiing improves you want something that fits and is stiff so it will reliably transfer your inmpulses to the ski edge.
Beginner - intermediate - the priority is comfort over precision but a badly fitting boot is still likely to be miserable.
Edited by oddman on Tuesday 11th July 10:19
shirt said:
it's price and perhaps limited range that put me off leaving it til the resort. the desert comment is that i live in one, there's nowhere i can try on without having to take a flight.
also does seem to me [cynic mode] that there's an element of marketing involved, the same with any sport or hobby with specialised equipment. its the cheap beginner stuff that's crap whereas a high quality product would suit 90% of hobbyist users regardless of brand.
The simple fact is that there is practically no other item of equipment that will dictate your enjoyment of any sport than ski boots. A poorly-fitting pair will quite literally ruin your holiday. For me, there is no doubt that even if you have to pay a little more, properly fitted ski boots are a must and if this means you spend your first morning in a ski shop this is a price that you simply have to swallow.also does seem to me [cynic mode] that there's an element of marketing involved, the same with any sport or hobby with specialised equipment. its the cheap beginner stuff that's crap whereas a high quality product would suit 90% of hobbyist users regardless of brand.
oddman said:
My next boots were a 2 hour shop appointment and another hour for tweaks after that.
i'd be interested in what this entails. i take deckster's point but its the range of variance possible beyond basic length/width/calf vol. i'm interested in. i simply don't buy that its a cinderella experience.
shirt said:
oddman said:
My next boots were a 2 hour shop appointment and another hour for tweaks after that.
i'd be interested in what this entails. i take deckster's point but its the range of variance possible beyond basic length/width/calf vol. i'm interested in. i simply don't buy that its a cinderella experience.
This process is something I'd expect as a minimum - others might see things I've missed out
First of all they will have ask you about your skiing - they'll also be eyeballing your age, build and athleticism and factoring this in.
They'll measure and take a look at your bare feet and then get a pair of boots out
Then they'll put your bare foot in a shell and see how your foot fits into the shell. They may try another shell if their guess wasn't right first time.
Then they'll replace the liners and get you to put on the boots properly and see how you feel.
Then you'll spend a very boring hour or so wandering about the shop waiting for something to hurt or noticing any loose spots (heel lift being the most concerning) - boots can be made looser but not tighter so fitter my recommend something on the small side.
Once you are happy and prepared to commit to purchase, they will apply spacers to your feet and do the heat moulding process (which varies from boot to boot) so you'll stand for a good while in a ski position whilst they conform to your feet.
At the same time they'll sort out a footbed - which needs to be fitted with the boot as it reduces the volume. I'm one of the rare people who can get away with the sh
ty cardboard liner that normally gets thrown away. The reason the footbeds in boots are so cheap and nasty is the manufacturers expect their users to throw them away and get a custom footbed.Then you go out and ski. Even if they fit well then more than likely they'll hurt at some point - more than likely this will be user error - doing the boot up incorrectly. If you have a persistent tight spot the fitter can stretch the shell to accommodate.
If this all sounds like a ball ache then maybe snowboarding?
Edited by oddman on Tuesday 11th July 10:40
oddman said:
Then you go out and ski. Even if they fit well then more than likely they'll hurt at some point - more than likely this will be user error - doing the boot up incorrectly. If you have a persistent tight spot the fitter can stretch the shell to accommodate.
That's a really good point and another reason to have them done in-resort. Any boot fitter will be happy to make changes to the fit and being able to take them back to the shop for some tweaks after a couple of days' skiing is a big plus.shirt said:
....I simply don't buy that its a cinderella experience.
Getting a well fitted boot isn't about marketing. It's essential. The ski industry is full of marketing hype....examples often being when the latest model of ski is being touted or the newest googles, when often there is minimal difference from last year's model, apart from new graphics.
But whilst you do get some gimmicks in boot design, where manufacturers are trying to differentiate themselves and make their boots look more attractive, that doesn't mean the basics of good boot fit aren't very important.
The difficulty is that your foot is basically inside a hard shell. And your foot needs to be held in place securely at certain places ideally with a very close fit, particularly around the heel. However, the blood supply to your foot can be surprisingly sensitive in certain places if you have too much pressure, so you need space around those parts. Otherwise it can be extremely painful after a few hours of skiing.
So it's tempting to go oversized on the shell, however that means you will need more padding. And that can cause pressure points. Or your foot won't be held properly, which means you lose the subtle feelings your skis are trying to transmit via the shell to your foot.
Basically, once you consider how much you have to spend to go skiing, it's a false economy to go cheap on your boots.
shirt said:
when do the ski sales usually start, and which sites are best?
also, if you had to buy boots without a fitting, what would you look for? are heat formed liners a thing? would love to go somewhere to be fitted but not much call for ski boots in the desert.
Just out of interest, how much skiing have you done? To what level and how many times do you plan on going in the future?also, if you had to buy boots without a fitting, what would you look for? are heat formed liners a thing? would love to go somewhere to be fitted but not much call for ski boots in the desert.
What boots fit well when you've been skiing before and which ones didn't? What size of boot did they give you?
Boots are a bit like race helmets, they fit a certain shape.
You don't choose the boot, the boot chooses you.
Saying that I've had a few lightly used boots, Nordicas, right size for me and they've been great.
Although I did investigate getting new, fitted boots.
They basically measured various parts of your feet, then checked your stance etc.. Asked about experience and which pistes you go on. They didn't have boots in the size that would have worked for me (it was towards the end of the season). As others have said they will work to mould the clog (bottom part of the boot) to fit your particular shape of foot, think of it as an off the peg suit with a few minor alterations to make it work better for your particular foot. Plus liner and take some thin ski socks with you.
Basically I'm on a waiting list for August/Sept - if I haven't heard anything by the middle of August I'll give them a call to double check. Thankfully the shop is fairly local to me and recommended.
If you haven't done a lot of skiing I would hold back a bit. Work out which boots / sizes work for you. If you are planning on going 2+ weeks this coming season then I guess it is worth considering, but contact shops now and see if they have stock etc..
eps said:
Just out of interest, how much skiing have you done? To what level and how many times do you plan on going in the future?
What boots fit well when you've been skiing before and which ones didn't? What size of boot did they give you?
managed 3 trips this winter and was very lucky with snow and weather conditions. complete beginner initially but was pleased to find i took to it rather quickly, only first lesson was nursery, onto blues thereafter. 3rd trip was short, so no lessons, just lots of long runs to get practice in, and a the odd red when i took a wrong turn. What boots fit well when you've been skiing before and which ones didn't? What size of boot did they give you?
spent a fair amount of time in CH last 2 yrs and seems lakes and mountains are my thing, so can't see it being a passing fad. i wont mention i was actually in the alps last week and should have had these thoughts then. it was only when we were discussing booking for xmas last night that it occurred to me...
boots were 28.5, different brands can't recall which. all fit reasonably well as in no shin pain, initial numb toes til i realised i didnt need a vice grip up front, just general discomfort inconsistent fit [i.e. not close enough for my liking in some areas, particularly lateral fit] and being completely s
t when not bound in. fatigue over longer sessions (footbed, calf) also an issue although that could just be getting used to it and being a fat knacker.eps said:
Boots are a bit like race helmets, they fit a certain shape.
You don't choose the boot, the boot chooses you.
first sentence is why i asked in the first place. in the helmet analogy once you know your head shape and what brand makes that shape you're golden, the final fit being user adjustable with padding and the general plushness dictated by whether you went touring or race rep. You don't choose the boot, the boot chooses you.
second sentence is why i said i don't think its a cinderella moment. shoe will be dictated in part due to the last [width, instep, calf vol] but everything that has been said so far agrees with my opinion that from there onwards the custom fit element comes in and is catered for. 80/20 rule.
eps said:
If you haven't done a lot of skiing I would hold back a bit. Work out which boots / sizes work for you. If you are planning on going 2+ weeks this coming season then I guess it is worth considering, but contact shops now and see if they have stock etc..
hopefully 2-3 weeks in the alps this winter plus i hear good things about georgia which is doable from dubai as a weekend away. i guess where i'm at is that i'd be happy punting 2-300 on a pair that retail for double that amount knowing i'd have to take a flyer in some regards and self fit. but full rrp plus resort tax and perhaps feel obligated to buy, not so sure. Edited by shirt on Tuesday 11th July 12:59
Edited by shirt on Tuesday 11th July 13:01
oddman said:
If this all sounds like a ball ache then maybe snowboarding?
never took to it (went a few times in my 20s), whereas skiing felt natural.Some good points made, thanks. I get what you mean about the shell sizes (manufacturers vs brands) and the info on what the fitting entails was helpful (think my previous reply crossed with your edit).
Guess I have this weeks bored googling topic sorted
shirt said:
never took to it (went a few times in my 20s), whereas skiing felt natural.
Some good points made, thanks. I get what you mean about the shell sizes (manufacturers vs brands) and the info on what the fitting entails was helpful (think my previous reply crossed with your edit).
Guess I have this weeks bored googling topic sorted
You should be pleased with yourself - you've brought out a consensus on PistonheadsSome good points made, thanks. I get what you mean about the shell sizes (manufacturers vs brands) and the info on what the fitting entails was helpful (think my previous reply crossed with your edit).
Guess I have this weeks bored googling topic sorted
It's a pretty good sign that hire boots haven't been a problem. Indicates your feet are probably reasonably average and a good starting point. A good boot fitter should be able to find shell that fits well without any botching. The custom liner is the icing on the cake.
I wouldn't be surprised if the aching you describe foot and calves isn't the boot per se, rather you unconsiously clawing your feet. We have a primitive monkey grasp reflex and feeling unsteady activates it. Not unusual for beginners.
The difference between fitted and guessed can be immense and its usually the hallelujah moment when you get your first fitted pair. I bought used ones on eBay to start with and they were ok and no great financial risk but I tended to oversize to compensate. IME a fitting is a bit like getting running shoes, pay up front for the analysis / right spec then just buy the same model if they wear out (although you'll still need them fettled if you did on the first pair).
I've generally paid close to RRP in the UK (for mine & family's) as the sales items were never right for us so in-resort prices in Europe have never felt particularly hiked. I'm pretty much medium/standard foot but the difference between brands in those specs in the shop was incredible.
My older daughter had boots fitted in the UK and she has very narrow feet. Fitting was fine but when she skied on them she started to get feet and shin pains. We thought they were the wrong boots for her but when we took them to a fitter in resort he confirmed they were absolutely the right boots for her, the problem was a high instep which caused her lower leg to cant over and that created the pains. Solution was moulded insoles and they were absolutely transformed. So sometimes it can be a two-stage process and that second part is nearly always in resort so you might as well do the first part there too.
I've generally paid close to RRP in the UK (for mine & family's) as the sales items were never right for us so in-resort prices in Europe have never felt particularly hiked. I'm pretty much medium/standard foot but the difference between brands in those specs in the shop was incredible.
My older daughter had boots fitted in the UK and she has very narrow feet. Fitting was fine but when she skied on them she started to get feet and shin pains. We thought they were the wrong boots for her but when we took them to a fitter in resort he confirmed they were absolutely the right boots for her, the problem was a high instep which caused her lower leg to cant over and that created the pains. Solution was moulded insoles and they were absolutely transformed. So sometimes it can be a two-stage process and that second part is nearly always in resort so you might as well do the first part there too.
Edited by Speed 3 on Tuesday 11th July 15:16
shirt said:
oddman said:
My next boots were a 2 hour shop appointment and another hour for tweaks after that.
i'd be interested in what this entails. 1. Physical foot examination so fitter has an idea of shape of foot/arches/etc.
2. Jump on pressure pad to get a picture of how you stand/pass weight through your feet.
3. Produce 3 or 4 pairs of boots, sans liners.
4. Get you to stand in shells both heels back and toes front to check how the shell matches your foot. Usually discard 1 or 2 boots at this point.
5. Liners back in and boots back on asking you about toe movement/heel lift/general foot pressure/movement in the liner.
6. Only at this point tell you the price/prices if you have 2 or more still in play.
At this point you can obviously say if you've ended up with some uber-expensive boots and they will try some cheaper options - but you could as easilly have the cheapest pair in the shop as everything so far has been about what fits your feet best.
7. Keep swapping boots until you pick the pair that fit best.
8. At this point mould a set of custom footbeds, usually taking a couple of goes at it until the fitter is happy with them (personally I couldn't tell any difference!
).9. Now get into the detail of the individual boot's fit. Any heel lift? - add wedges and packers to help you get into the heel pocket properly. Any pressure points? - mark the points, take boot away and blow out the shell at that point.
10. Keep tweaking and testing.
At this point you take a deep breath and pay the bill, but that's still not it.
11. Have any issues with the boots or fit? - make as many approintments as you need to tweek the fit until your ski boots stop being the most uncomfortable things you've ever put on your feet and that you can't wait to get off and become on of the most comfortable instead, something you can ski and then apres ski in without giving it a second thought.
Agree - but that's analogous to saying you should only ever buy a bespoke made to measure suit.
There is a middle ground, that's better than rental boots, but cheaper & easier that a full in store assessment & custom fit - which is the question that was asked.
I don't dispute paying top price yields the best results. That's what I do, but then again, I ski >100 days/year and live in a ski resort with local fitters.
There is a middle ground, that's better than rental boots, but cheaper & easier that a full in store assessment & custom fit - which is the question that was asked.
I don't dispute paying top price yields the best results. That's what I do, but then again, I ski >100 days/year and live in a ski resort with local fitters.
shirt said:
oddman said:
My next boots were a 2 hour shop appointment and another hour for tweaks after that.
i'd be interested in what this entails. i take deckster's point but its the range of variance possible beyond basic length/width/calf vol. i'm interested in. i simply don't buy that its a cinderella experience.
As someone above said: if you have normal feet, and are a beginner/early intermediate, you might get away with off the shelf. Your feet and your gentle skiingean you won't be in pain.
Anything else, get fitted. If you are spending a large amount of money on a few days in the mountain, every year, spend some money in the single most important piece of equipment you will use.
Admittedly, I have very flat feet. So this is critical to me. But Lady F is an expert level skiier with normal feet, and it's critical to her too.
Edited by Harry Flashman on Wednesday 12th July 07:14
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