buying an apartment in spain
Discussion
I have a question, not sure if its been answered on this thread or elsewhere?
Basically, long term im looking at buying an apartment in Torrevieja area, I would spend a week a month out there, friends/family would also use it,
As I work full time, is there anything I need to be aware of if WFH in Spain, both from my side and my employers side? I know that spending too much time there means I could become a tax resident which is why I would do a week a month, but assuming no technical/IT issues, would work have any issues tax/NI wise of me being in Spain?
Basically, long term im looking at buying an apartment in Torrevieja area, I would spend a week a month out there, friends/family would also use it,
As I work full time, is there anything I need to be aware of if WFH in Spain, both from my side and my employers side? I know that spending too much time there means I could become a tax resident which is why I would do a week a month, but assuming no technical/IT issues, would work have any issues tax/NI wise of me being in Spain?
You’re limit is 180 days in any one tax year (Spanish tax year is calendar year).
One thing to have in mind is if you ever apply for residency (I’m going through this at the moment), you have to prove you’ve lived there for the previous 6 months... so you immediately become liable for Spanish tax if you’re applying in the 2nd half of the year.
You’re protected under double taxation agreements that are in place.... so you can’t be taxed in both Uk and Spain on the same earnings.
One thing to have in mind is if you ever apply for residency (I’m going through this at the moment), you have to prove you’ve lived there for the previous 6 months... so you immediately become liable for Spanish tax if you’re applying in the 2nd half of the year.
You’re protected under double taxation agreements that are in place.... so you can’t be taxed in both Uk and Spain on the same earnings.
I’m not a tax expert, but have taken initial advice as part of my residency application, and top line advice is as follows...
As long as you’re not a Spanish citizen or resident, and you’re not in Spain more than 180 days in one tax year, you’re not obliged to divulge any income not earned within Spain.
If you owned a property, and rented it out when you weren’t here, you’d have to declare that.
You just keep paying Uk PAYE.
As long as you’re not a Spanish citizen or resident, and you’re not in Spain more than 180 days in one tax year, you’re not obliged to divulge any income not earned within Spain.
If you owned a property, and rented it out when you weren’t here, you’d have to declare that.
You just keep paying Uk PAYE.
A 90/180 rule question for next year.
Am I correct in thinking that this comes in to play from 1st Jan 21 and the clock starts from zero. Therefore, for the first 180 days of 2021 it's a simple calculation of the total number of days spent in the EU. But from day 181 it becomes a rolling 180 period looking backwards in time from the date of your next entry in to the EU?
I've stuck this model into a spreadsheet and it seems to work but I expect it will catch out quite a few people.
I do hope we can find away round this rule at some point.
Am I correct in thinking that this comes in to play from 1st Jan 21 and the clock starts from zero. Therefore, for the first 180 days of 2021 it's a simple calculation of the total number of days spent in the EU. But from day 181 it becomes a rolling 180 period looking backwards in time from the date of your next entry in to the EU?
I've stuck this model into a spreadsheet and it seems to work but I expect it will catch out quite a few people.
I do hope we can find away round this rule at some point.
Phil. said:
A 90/180 rule question for next year.
Am I correct in thinking that this comes in to play from 1st Jan 21 and the clock starts from zero. Therefore, for the first 180 days of 2021 it's a simple calculation of the total number of days spent in the EU. But from day 181 it becomes a rolling 180 period looking backwards in time from the date of your next entry in to the EU?
I've stuck this model into a spreadsheet and it seems to work but I expect it will catch out quite a few people.
I do hope we can find away round this rule at some point.
The intention of the working agreement was to maintain the status quo for all rights of residence. The only thing that changes on 31st December is that you lose your EU rights and need to acquire the rights of any other 3rd party nation. In effect this means that you need a resident's visa. Because temporary residents visa are not specifically mentioned, there was a group in the UK that have made a big brouhaha, but perhaps they were just another anti-Brexit pressure group.Am I correct in thinking that this comes in to play from 1st Jan 21 and the clock starts from zero. Therefore, for the first 180 days of 2021 it's a simple calculation of the total number of days spent in the EU. But from day 181 it becomes a rolling 180 period looking backwards in time from the date of your next entry in to the EU?
I've stuck this model into a spreadsheet and it seems to work but I expect it will catch out quite a few people.
I do hope we can find away round this rule at some point.
You need to find an English translation of a Spanish document BOE 7276, or read this https://www.boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-202... in Chrome with auomatic translation to English activated.
There are 2 classification of resident - Permanent, where you live there more than 183-days and pay tax etc to Spain on your worldwide wealth. A non-tax resident simply gives you a right to enter and leave Spain,as you wish, as a property owner there - its in effect a Visa, but not called that. You have no rights to healthcare etc. There are already Russians and Norwegians owning property in Spain using these provisions.You will pay tax (at a slightly higher rate) on any income you derive in Spain, perhaps renting your home, while absent. The key issue is never to live continuously in Spain for more than 183 days per year, but there is no reason why you cannot enjoy 5-continuous months at a time, provided that you stay away for the rest of the year.
I think that it is coincidental that the EU introduced the 90/180 day rules about the same time as Brexit, but I doubt that its principal aim was to prevent Brits from enjoying their home in the sun. Residential tourism is massive for Spain's economy. I think the intention is to deter , say someone from the Philippines, arriving in Spain on a holiday Visa, getting a job in a bar, and then forgetting to go home and move freely around the Schengen zone, unchecked.
Something that I think is important is to start your application before the end of December, you will already have an NEI number and be able to demonstrate when you purchased your property, paid utility bills etc.
This is my interpretation, rather than absolute fact.
rdjohn said:
The intention of the working agreement was to maintain the status quo for all rights of residence. The only thing that changes on 31st December is that you lose your EU rights and need to acquire the rights of any other 3rd party nation. In effect this means that you need a resident's visa. Because temporary residents visa are not specifically mentioned, there was a group in the UK that have made a big brouhaha, but perhaps they were just another anti-Brexit pressure group.
You need to find an English translation of a Spanish document BOE 7276, or read this https://www.boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-202... in Chrome with auomatic translation to English activated.
There are 2 classification of resident - Permanent, where you live there more than 183-days and pay tax etc to Spain on your worldwide wealth. A non-tax resident simply gives you a right to enter and leave Spain,as you wish, as a property owner there - its in effect a Visa, but not called that. You have no rights to healthcare etc. There are already Russians and Norwegians owning property in Spain using these provisions.You will pay tax (at a slightly higher rate) on any income you derive in Spain, perhaps renting your home, while absent. The key issue is never to live continuously in Spain for more than 183 days per year, but there is no reason why you cannot enjoy 5-continuous months at a time, provided that you stay away for the rest of the year.
I think that it is coincidental that the EU introduced the 90/180 day rules about the same time as Brexit, but I doubt that its principal aim was to prevent Brits from enjoying their home in the sun. Residential tourism is massive for Spain's economy. I think the intention is to deter , say someone from the Philippines, arriving in Spain on a holiday Visa, getting a job in a bar, and then forgetting to go home and move freely around the Schengen zone, unchecked.
Something that I think is important is to start your application before the end of December, you will already have an NEI number and be able to demonstrate when you purchased your property, paid utility bills etc.
This is my interpretation, rather than absolute fact.
Many thanks for this advice. It has promoted me to take legal advice about whether applying for a TIE card is the best way forward to get around the 90/180 day rule without becoming a fiscal resident of Spain. I’ll report back after my meeting on Friday afternoon. You need to find an English translation of a Spanish document BOE 7276, or read this https://www.boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-202... in Chrome with auomatic translation to English activated.
There are 2 classification of resident - Permanent, where you live there more than 183-days and pay tax etc to Spain on your worldwide wealth. A non-tax resident simply gives you a right to enter and leave Spain,as you wish, as a property owner there - its in effect a Visa, but not called that. You have no rights to healthcare etc. There are already Russians and Norwegians owning property in Spain using these provisions.You will pay tax (at a slightly higher rate) on any income you derive in Spain, perhaps renting your home, while absent. The key issue is never to live continuously in Spain for more than 183 days per year, but there is no reason why you cannot enjoy 5-continuous months at a time, provided that you stay away for the rest of the year.
I think that it is coincidental that the EU introduced the 90/180 day rules about the same time as Brexit, but I doubt that its principal aim was to prevent Brits from enjoying their home in the sun. Residential tourism is massive for Spain's economy. I think the intention is to deter , say someone from the Philippines, arriving in Spain on a holiday Visa, getting a job in a bar, and then forgetting to go home and move freely around the Schengen zone, unchecked.
Something that I think is important is to start your application before the end of December, you will already have an NEI number and be able to demonstrate when you purchased your property, paid utility bills etc.
This is my interpretation, rather than absolute fact.
We met with a Spanish residency lawyer yesterday. They confirmed it is possible to hold a TIE (residency) card and remain a non-fiscal resident by staying in Spain for less than 183 days per year, as per the current arrangements. A TIE card also provides access to other Schengen countries.
Before applying for a TIE (residency) card you need to register at your local Town Hall for a Padron. Effectively you are added to their electoral roll. This process is relatively simple requiring passports, property title deeds, NIE certificates and evidence you paid your taxes to the Town Hall this year. I have instructed the lawyer to do this for me but you can do it yourself.
Applying for a Padron does not require you to continue with a residency application. Importantly though, we were advised that a Padron application should be submitted before the end of the year due to unknown changes which may occur from 1st Jan due to Brexit. So if you are even considering a residency application then you might want to submit a Padron application ASAP.
It takes 2-3 weeks to receive a Padron certificate. A residency application requires 6 months of UK and Spanish bank account statements showing a minimum balance of 7,000 euros across the accounts. If it's a joint application then the bank accounts will need to be in joint names.
Unless you are formally retired, you will also have to provide evidence of health insurance in Spain. This is potentially the additional cost of circumventing the 90/180 rule. I'm still investigating what this cost might be but expect it will be a minimum of 100 euro per month for both my wife and I, so circa £1k per annum minimum. I have Bupa in the UK and they have both a global policy option and a subsidiary in Spain (Sanitas). I am investigating if there is a way of avoiding having two separate policies in the UK and Spain, and hopefully minimising the overall cost.
The lawyer also said that the Spanish government will not want to deter Spanish property owners from visiting and therefore there may be some new visa options post 1st Jan 2021. However, given there is no clear way forward in regard to Brexit its impossible to predict what will happen.
My decision as to whether to apply for residency before the 1st Jan 2021 will be made on the basis of how much I will have to pay for health insurance. If it's significant then I will wait until we have some clarity next year on whether any new visa arrangements will be offered to Spanish property owners.
Before applying for a TIE (residency) card you need to register at your local Town Hall for a Padron. Effectively you are added to their electoral roll. This process is relatively simple requiring passports, property title deeds, NIE certificates and evidence you paid your taxes to the Town Hall this year. I have instructed the lawyer to do this for me but you can do it yourself.
Applying for a Padron does not require you to continue with a residency application. Importantly though, we were advised that a Padron application should be submitted before the end of the year due to unknown changes which may occur from 1st Jan due to Brexit. So if you are even considering a residency application then you might want to submit a Padron application ASAP.
It takes 2-3 weeks to receive a Padron certificate. A residency application requires 6 months of UK and Spanish bank account statements showing a minimum balance of 7,000 euros across the accounts. If it's a joint application then the bank accounts will need to be in joint names.
Unless you are formally retired, you will also have to provide evidence of health insurance in Spain. This is potentially the additional cost of circumventing the 90/180 rule. I'm still investigating what this cost might be but expect it will be a minimum of 100 euro per month for both my wife and I, so circa £1k per annum minimum. I have Bupa in the UK and they have both a global policy option and a subsidiary in Spain (Sanitas). I am investigating if there is a way of avoiding having two separate policies in the UK and Spain, and hopefully minimising the overall cost.
The lawyer also said that the Spanish government will not want to deter Spanish property owners from visiting and therefore there may be some new visa options post 1st Jan 2021. However, given there is no clear way forward in regard to Brexit its impossible to predict what will happen.
My decision as to whether to apply for residency before the 1st Jan 2021 will be made on the basis of how much I will have to pay for health insurance. If it's significant then I will wait until we have some clarity next year on whether any new visa arrangements will be offered to Spanish property owners.
My residency application was approved last week. I now have to go to Malaga Police Station on Dec 4 to complete the final stage and pick up my residency card.
I used a local company to manage the process... they told me what paperwork they needed and managed the submission. They will also accompany me on the final trip to the police station to pick up the card. The whole process cost under €300. Super straightforward.
As regards the padron, I needed one last November to complete my car purchase, I popped in to Benahavis Ayuntamieto with my passport and and utility bill and got one on the spot... took 15 mins max. Needed an updated one for the residency application and took only a few mins for them to amend the date and print one out for me.
I only needed an average balance statement and bank statements from my Spanish bank.
I got health insurance through a company called DKV. Took under 48 hours to sort and cost €70/month for a 53YO smoker with no pre-existing conditions.
Just need to sort my drivers license now and I should have no issues with Brexit!
I used a local company to manage the process... they told me what paperwork they needed and managed the submission. They will also accompany me on the final trip to the police station to pick up the card. The whole process cost under €300. Super straightforward.
As regards the padron, I needed one last November to complete my car purchase, I popped in to Benahavis Ayuntamieto with my passport and and utility bill and got one on the spot... took 15 mins max. Needed an updated one for the residency application and took only a few mins for them to amend the date and print one out for me.
I only needed an average balance statement and bank statements from my Spanish bank.
I got health insurance through a company called DKV. Took under 48 hours to sort and cost €70/month for a 53YO smoker with no pre-existing conditions.
Just need to sort my drivers license now and I should have no issues with Brexit!
Edited by Chris Stott on Saturday 28th November 15:22
Chris Stott said:
My residency application was approved last week. I now have to go to Malaga Police Station on Dec 4 to complete the final stage and pick up my residency card.
I used a local company to manage the process... they told me what paperwork they needed and managed the submission. They will also accompany me on the final trip to the police station to pick up the card. The whole process cost under €300. Super straightforward.
As regards the padron, I needed one last November to complete my car purchase, I popped in to Benahavis Ayuntamieto with my passport and and utility bill and got one on the spot... took 15 mins max. Needed an updated one for the residency application and took only a few mins for them to amend the date and print one out for me.
I only needed an average balance statement and bank statements from my Spanish bank.
I got health insurance through a company called DKV. Took under 48 hours to sort and cost €70/month for a 53YO smoker with no pre-existing conditions.
Just need to sort my drivers license now and I should have no issues with Brexit!
Sounds good Chris. I assume your will be a permanent fiscal residency requiring payment of personal taxes in Spain?I used a local company to manage the process... they told me what paperwork they needed and managed the submission. They will also accompany me on the final trip to the police station to pick up the card. The whole process cost under €300. Super straightforward.
As regards the padron, I needed one last November to complete my car purchase, I popped in to Benahavis Ayuntamieto with my passport and and utility bill and got one on the spot... took 15 mins max. Needed an updated one for the residency application and took only a few mins for them to amend the date and print one out for me.
I only needed an average balance statement and bank statements from my Spanish bank.
I got health insurance through a company called DKV. Took under 48 hours to sort and cost €70/month for a 53YO smoker with no pre-existing conditions.
Just need to sort my drivers license now and I should have no issues with Brexit!
Edited by Chris Stott on Saturday 28th November 15:22
Yes, I’ll be a permanent resident.
I will be liable for Spanish tax if I decide to work in the future - I don’t need to, but I’ll probably need something to keep the brain ticking over once the current Covid mess is over. But I won’t be going back to full on corporate 50-60 hours a week again. A bit of consultancy back in the Uk, or maybe a small business here.
I will be liable for Spanish tax if I decide to work in the future - I don’t need to, but I’ll probably need something to keep the brain ticking over once the current Covid mess is over. But I won’t be going back to full on corporate 50-60 hours a week again. A bit of consultancy back in the Uk, or maybe a small business here.
Great news Chris. We moved to Spain last week, driving down from Bilboa, and getting stopped twice by the police.
We applied for residentia yesterday, by using a local company.
Started renovating the villa and got the main room ready (cinema/music room)
. Now I can crack on with getting a kitchen and bathroom in for Christmas.
We applied for residentia yesterday, by using a local company.
Started renovating the villa and got the main room ready (cinema/music room)
. Now I can crack on with getting a kitchen and bathroom in for Christmas.Chris Stott said:
Congratulations, Mart!
Hope all goes smoothly with the application, and good luck with the renovation!! I started renovating my 2nd bathroom this week, but I have no time pressure
Same here, all the time in the world. But have 11 more rooms to renovate and a large bar to get ready for the summer. So none stop for me, before family arrive and expect a good time.Hope all goes smoothly with the application, and good luck with the renovation!! I started renovating my 2nd bathroom this week, but I have no time pressure
I understand it’s 20C plus in SE Spain at present. Who’s managed to stay there over Xmas and are now enjoying the sunshine?
As soon as the restrictions lift sufficiently I will be on the first plane or heading for the EuroTunnel by car, whichever route has the least bureaucracy attached to it.
As soon as the restrictions lift sufficiently I will be on the first plane or heading for the EuroTunnel by car, whichever route has the least bureaucracy attached to it.
I flew to the UK Friday 18th Dec expecting to spend some time with my family but had to come back to Spain on the 21st as it looked like I was going to get stuck I the Uk... pretty expensive 2 days in the Uk!
Had a few weeks of cold weather down here in Andalusia during Jan - night time temps down to 4-5*. But the weather has really picked up, and last week we had 21-23*... lovely!!
Collect my residency card from Malaga police station next Monday.
Had a few weeks of cold weather down here in Andalusia during Jan - night time temps down to 4-5*. But the weather has really picked up, and last week we had 21-23*... lovely!!
Collect my residency card from Malaga police station next Monday.
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