Manchester Airport. How can it be so bad?
Discussion
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/great...
TUI calling in the police for the second time...
TUI calling in the police for the second time...
Speaking to a relative..
at their airport both Menzies and Swissport are short staffed- in the current environment minimum wage and long lead in times (8-15 weeks vetting plus training time) mean a lot of hires don't make it to an actual start.
Budget airlines work to 30-35 minute turnarounds, charters to around 45 minutes- the list of task to be completed in that time is long, and some of them aren't concurrent- eg not everyone allows refuelling during embarking.
Obviously there's much to go wrong or cause small delays- there's no slack in the system. Passengers needing assistance, ground vehicles blocked on stands, fuelling not available, missed atc slots and of course shortage of ground handling crew.
Three return flights a day for the budget carriers and those delays accumulate massively.
at their airport both Menzies and Swissport are short staffed- in the current environment minimum wage and long lead in times (8-15 weeks vetting plus training time) mean a lot of hires don't make it to an actual start.
Budget airlines work to 30-35 minute turnarounds, charters to around 45 minutes- the list of task to be completed in that time is long, and some of them aren't concurrent- eg not everyone allows refuelling during embarking.
Obviously there's much to go wrong or cause small delays- there's no slack in the system. Passengers needing assistance, ground vehicles blocked on stands, fuelling not available, missed atc slots and of course shortage of ground handling crew.
Three return flights a day for the budget carriers and those delays accumulate massively.
GT03ROB said:
Jaguar steve said:
I'd guess it's more likely down to making as much money out of passengers as possible issues.
The industry knows there's a vast post Covid customer base so desperate to get away they'll endure anything to do so, and airports in particular know that people anxiously arriving several hours before their flight and being stuck in huge ques once they're inside will uplift the bottom line on parking and catering revenue. No way are they going to do anything to speed passenger transit through and compromise that at the moment such as paying a decent wage so they can fill all their vacancies or getting on the phone and busing loads of agency workers in - why would they?
The Grubberment doubtless has a hand in this too as they'll know the customary huge delays and frustrations at immigration and regular failure of the e-gates is going to nudge some people toward not bothering traveling abroad quite so often and perhaps spend a bit more of their holiday cash in the UK instead which will give a similar uplift to their tax take from the UK tourist industry.
The entire airport and seaport situation is a massive s
t sandwich at the moment and you just know because demand exceeds a carefully engineered supply shortage the greedy B'stards have made themselves a perfect opportunity to screw you over.
How on earth does having somebody stand in a queue for several hours waiting to get airside help an airport boost its revenue, when revenue comes from airside sales?? Its a mess without a doubt, but have a think about where airports generate revenue from. Airports want passengers airside ASAP so they wait for 3hrs for their flight spending money in the duty free, pret-a-mange & weatherspoons.The industry knows there's a vast post Covid customer base so desperate to get away they'll endure anything to do so, and airports in particular know that people anxiously arriving several hours before their flight and being stuck in huge ques once they're inside will uplift the bottom line on parking and catering revenue. No way are they going to do anything to speed passenger transit through and compromise that at the moment such as paying a decent wage so they can fill all their vacancies or getting on the phone and busing loads of agency workers in - why would they?
The Grubberment doubtless has a hand in this too as they'll know the customary huge delays and frustrations at immigration and regular failure of the e-gates is going to nudge some people toward not bothering traveling abroad quite so often and perhaps spend a bit more of their holiday cash in the UK instead which will give a similar uplift to their tax take from the UK tourist industry.
The entire airport and seaport situation is a massive s
t sandwich at the moment and you just know because demand exceeds a carefully engineered supply shortage the greedy B'stards have made themselves a perfect opportunity to screw you over. Jaguar Steve's logic....fewer customers + queues + cancellations = profit.
DaveGrohl said:
Good to hear. They’ve been our preferred airline for several years now. Not completely problem free in all that time but just about with us. We wouldn’t bother going on holiday if the only choice was Ryanair. Others we have tried have had more issues than Jet2 in our experience. Maybe we’ve been lucky but good to hear they treat staff well. Not every company does.
Ryanair have been comparatively reliable for the past 2 years much more so than Jet2 who unnecessarily cancelled many flights as restrictions were changed, whereas RA kept on flying and we’re usually on time. Now it’s EasyJet who are cancelling flights last minute. rambo19 said:
egor110 said:
But jet 2 are the same but seem to be coping.
My best mate is a captain for Jet2, they looked after their staff throughout covid, and my mate really rates them.Scheduling seems to be causing the issue rather than staffing?
rambo19 said:
egor110 said:
But jet 2 are the same but seem to be coping.
My best mate is a captain for Jet2, they looked after their staff throughout covid, and my mate really rates them.I don’t think this is the fault of the airlines, but the airports and the ground. Handling agents.
The airlines presumably had a schedule which worked until the planes were finished loaded every time hours late. A bit of disruption is normal but their crewing schedules must be completely screwed.
The airlines presumably had a schedule which worked until the planes were finished loaded every time hours late. A bit of disruption is normal but their crewing schedules must be completely screwed.
rs4al said:
rambo19 said:
egor110 said:
But jet 2 are the same but seem to be coping.
My best mate is a captain for Jet2, they looked after their staff throughout covid, and my mate really rates them.
How on earth does anyone think they’re a company that “looked after their staff through covid”
surveyor said:
I don’t think this is the fault of the airlines, but the airports and the ground. Handling agents.
The airlines presumably had a schedule which worked until the planes were finished loaded every time hours late. A bit of disruption is normal but their crewing schedules must be completely screwed.
Ground Handlers work for the airlines, don't give them a pass for this. Every party has skin in the game, including UKBF and NATS. A global pandemic was a predicatable, manageable risk and rapid return was also a predictable, managable risk once the pandemic took hold. The airlines presumably had a schedule which worked until the planes were finished loaded every time hours late. A bit of disruption is normal but their crewing schedules must be completely screwed.
Collectingbrass said:
surveyor said:
I don’t think this is the fault of the airlines, but the airports and the ground. Handling agents.
The airlines presumably had a schedule which worked until the planes were finished loaded every time hours late. A bit of disruption is normal but their crewing schedules must be completely screwed.
Ground Handlers work for the airlines, don't give them a pass for this. Every party has skin in the game, including UKBF and NATS. A global pandemic was a predicatable, manageable risk and rapid return was also a predictable, managable risk once the pandemic took hold. The airlines presumably had a schedule which worked until the planes were finished loaded every time hours late. A bit of disruption is normal but their crewing schedules must be completely screwed.
These people rarely work for the airline or airport. The service is usually contracted via a provider like Toll, Dnata and Menzies. They do the actual employing and would have been contracted by the airline to provide said services.
The problem we've got is that they let a lot of staff go during the pandemic and people aren't queuing up to get those jobs. Also those they are employing take weeks before they can work a single day due to training, vetting and security. I've heard of a 4 week waiting time just to get a security pass.
The airlines are getting it in the neck but it's likely not thier fault. Show me someone who's never been lied to by a supplier and I'll show you a liar.
captain_cynic said:
The airlines are getting it in the neck but it's likely not thier fault. Show me someone who's never been lied to by a supplier and I'll show you a liar.
It's partly their fault, I think.Take Leeds Bradford for example.
A group of flights are super-compressed to the 6am-8:30am slot and none of their security infrastructure coped well pre-pandemic. Now they have rescheduled flights and I don't have the stats, but I think there are even more flights now in that time window.
They haven't expanded security capacity (and physically can't easily), so the fault is in either the scheduling by the airline or the airport (desperate for funds post pandemic) - or both...
If the flights were more spaced out in the day then the capacity is there as there are often no queues.
rs4al said:
rambo19 said:
egor110 said:
But jet 2 are the same but seem to be coping.
My best mate is a captain for Jet2, they looked after their staff throughout covid, and my mate really rates them.For comparison, BA announced they’d be axing 12,000 jobs as early as April 2020 IIRC. Admittedly not all pilots, but still a massive headline at the time. What the actual number was, I have no idea.
I also recall some of the big ME carriers chopping guys like no tomorrow. Seemed to be no rhyme or reason, they simply plucked names out of a hat and bang, you were suddenly unemployed in the desert.
captain_cynic said:
Ground handler? I presume you mean jobs like Ramp Services agent and baggage handler.
These people rarely work for the airline or airport. The service is usually contracted via a provider like Toll, Dnata and Menzies. They do the actual employing and would have been contracted by the airline to provide said services.
The problem we've got is that they let a lot of staff go during the pandemic and people aren't queuing up to get those jobs. Also those they are employing take weeks before they can work a single day due to training, vetting and security. I've heard of a 4 week waiting time just to get a security pass.
The airlines are getting it in the neck but it's likely not thier fault. Show me someone who's never been lied to by a supplier and I'll show you a liar.
My daughter works for BA. She was made redundant as were thousands of others in all areas.These people rarely work for the airline or airport. The service is usually contracted via a provider like Toll, Dnata and Menzies. They do the actual employing and would have been contracted by the airline to provide said services.
The problem we've got is that they let a lot of staff go during the pandemic and people aren't queuing up to get those jobs. Also those they are employing take weeks before they can work a single day due to training, vetting and security. I've heard of a 4 week waiting time just to get a security pass.
The airlines are getting it in the neck but it's likely not thier fault. Show me someone who's never been lied to by a supplier and I'll show you a liar.
They were put into a 'talent pool' - load of bks term. Anyway what the daft buggers didn't realise was that to re employ the 'talent pool' they had to undergo DBS checks all over again, then re train them 'from scratch' - yes they all had to start from scratch and go through the same process as if they'd never stepped foot on a plane.
Defo shortage of cabin crew and slots are being alternated so they don't lose them. For example this week she's flown half empty Inverness and Hamburg flights. It's only the holiday flights that get the press.
Thankyou4calling said:
BA retired all its 747’s but that was on the cards anyway.
They didn’t make any compulsory redundancies of Pilots, many took voluntary.
Passenger numbers (despite what we are seeing) are no where near pre pandemic levels.
Wrong! BA made about 270 pilots redundant, many who were ex-Thomas Cook.They didn’t make any compulsory redundancies of Pilots, many took voluntary.
Passenger numbers (despite what we are seeing) are no where near pre pandemic levels.
There was only one large airline who did not threaten, or actually make any pilots compulsory redundant in 2020.
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