buying an apartment in spain
Discussion
Chris Stott said:
Leadfoot said:
I know, that's why we did it.
Point is that my passport shouldn't have been stamped.
Why? Point is that my passport shouldn't have been stamped.
I have Spanish residency and my passport is stamped in and out. Makes no odds either way.
The pdf of the EU border guard manual -
https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/system/files/202...
6.2. No entry or exit stamp must be affixed in the following cases:
...
(i) to the travel documents of nationals of third countries who present a residence card provided for in Directive 2004/38/EC and issued by an EU Member State or an EEA country, independently of whether they accompany or join the EU or EEA citizen.
Article 11(1) of the Schengen Borders Code clarifies that a Member State may stamp the travel document of third-country nationals holding a residence permit or long-stay visa issued by that Member State. By comparison, the same would apply to beneficiaries of the Withdrawal Agreement. However, the Commission does not consider such stamping as useful since the purpose of stamping is to establish whether a third country national respected the authorised length of a short stay within the area without internal border control and this logic cannot be applied to third country nationals holding a right to a long-term stay. The Commission therefore recommends – notably as regards beneficiaries of the Withdrawal Agreement – to refrain from stamping. In any case, should stamping nevertheless take place, such stamp cannot affect the length of the authorised long-term stay.
Chris Stott said:
Your entry and exit are recorded when they swipe your passport.
Not across the Schengen zone they are not at the moment. The Spanish system may record your entry and exit from Spain, but that doesn't link up to say the German systems.That is what EES is introducing - a system that brings everything together.
Chris Stott said:
No one is using the stamps in your passport to monitor your days.
Nobody is, but that is what they would need to do to check the days, but that is damn hard which is why nobody is doing it.Edited by SpidersWeb on Monday 20th May 10:10
Exactly.
No one is monitoring days spent in any country, never mind the Shengen region.
The expat groups frequently have people moaning that their passport got stamped even though they showed their TIE. Not worth getting stressed about… like I said, makes no difference if they stamp it or not.
No one is monitoring days spent in any country, never mind the Shengen region.
The expat groups frequently have people moaning that their passport got stamped even though they showed their TIE. Not worth getting stressed about… like I said, makes no difference if they stamp it or not.
SpidersWeb said:
Not across the Schengen zone they are not at the moment. The Spanish system may record your entry and exit from Spain, but that doesn't link up to say the German systems.
That is what EES is introducing - a system that brings everything together.
That'll cause problems next time I go into Spain then! I flew in & got recorded in, then drove out so no record at Spanish border control of leaving! All seems a bit messyThat is what EES is introducing - a system that brings everything together.
GT03ROB said:
SpidersWeb said:
Not across the Schengen zone they are not at the moment. The Spanish system may record your entry and exit from Spain, but that doesn't link up to say the German systems.
That is what EES is introducing - a system that brings everything together.
That'll cause problems next time I go into Spain then! I flew in & got recorded in, then drove out so no record at Spanish border control of leaving! All seems a bit messyThat is what EES is introducing - a system that brings everything together.
Once EES is operating then no more passport stamps and the system will know if you are legally resident in an EU country or if you are the spouse of an EU citizen, and it won't matter which route you take to enter and leave Schengen.
The only potential issue, although I can't see the EU bothering to enforce it, is non-EU citizens who have residence in one EU country and are by law still limited to the 90/180 in all the other EU countries, but the system won't know when you cross say the Spanish/French border to spend time in France. Obviously if you doing that to drive back up to get the ferry / tunnel back to the UK then they system will know when you cross that border.
I suspect there will be a few Mail/Express/Telegraph articles about retired expats who spent years in Spain not bothering to become legal, coming back to the UK for a short period and then being denied entry on return back to Spain because of exceeding the 90/180 - lots of 'compo' faces, with stories of their mobile home and belongings all being there and they have nowhere to live.
SpidersWeb said:
GT03ROB said:
SpidersWeb said:
Not across the Schengen zone they are not at the moment. The Spanish system may record your entry and exit from Spain, but that doesn't link up to say the German systems.
That is what EES is introducing - a system that brings everything together.
That'll cause problems next time I go into Spain then! I flew in & got recorded in, then drove out so no record at Spanish border control of leaving! All seems a bit messyThat is what EES is introducing - a system that brings everything together.
Once EES is operating then no more passport stamps and the system will know if you are legally resident in an EU country or if you are the spouse of an EU citizen, and it won't matter which route you take to enter and leave Schengen.
The only potential issue, although I can't see the EU bothering to enforce it, is non-EU citizens who have residence in one EU country and are by law still limited to the 90/180 in all the other EU countries, but the system won't know when you cross say the Spanish/French border to spend time in France. Obviously if you doing that to drive back up to get the ferry / tunnel back to the UK then they system will know when you cross that border.
I suspect there will be a few Mail/Express/Telegraph articles about retired expats who spent years in Spain not bothering to become legal, coming back to the UK for a short period and then being denied entry on return back to Spain because of exceeding the 90/180 - lots of 'compo' faces, with stories of their mobile home and belongings all being there and they have nowhere to live.
When travelling in Schengen, I use my passport as ID at the gate when flying but of course there is no passport control. Haven’t tried on the road borders / spot checks yet, if there are any, but in theory I could use my residence card (in theory… but I would still have my passport with me just in case)
Edited by languagetimothy on Monday 20th May 11:31
SpidersWeb said:
I suspect there will be a few Mail/Express/Telegraph articles about retired expats who spent years in Spain not bothering to become legal, coming back to the UK for a short period and then being denied entry on return back to Spain because of exceeding the 90/180 - lots of 'compo' faces, with stories of their mobile home and belongings all being there and they have nowhere to live.
Thats a certainty! There's so many Brits in Spain illegally & they just keep their heads down! GT03ROB said:
That'll cause problems next time I go into Spain then! I flew in & got recorded in, then drove out so no record at Spanish border control of leaving! All seems a bit messy
It’s not driving out of Spain that needs recording it’s exiting the Schengen zone which I assume requires a passport check or are there road borders into/out of Schengen without passport checks? Phil. said:
It’s not driving out of Spain that needs recording it’s exiting the Schengen zone which I assume requires a passport check or are there road borders into/out of Schengen without passport checks?
They both need recording somehow - at least by you.Leaving Spain is relevant for counting your tax days.
Leaving Schengen is relevant for immigration days.
The rules for the 2 are also different - tax depends on where you are at midnight, so you're only ever in one country per day. Whereas Schengen count every day you're there at all, so both entry & exit day count.
There are entry/exit points where the passport check is somewhat optional eg Andorra & Gibraltar - they may stop you, or you may have to ask, or you may chose just drive straight through.
My understanding is that EES is likely to be pretty much a straight replacement of this - a machine that you can stop at and swipe in / out - though with potentially larger consequences if you get 'caught' in the wrong place.
Chris Stott said:
Exactly.
No one is monitoring days spent in any country, never mind the Shengen region.
t.
I wrote it here a few months ago, a border control in Copenhagen literally spent quite a long time to check my wife's passport. She has done numerous work trips into EU that year but nothing major really. I was surprised to see this actually happened when we were returning from Copenhagen to London, after a few days stay and the guy was a complete T*W**. His supervisor came finally and told him off and we left. You would never expect such pedantic behaviour from Danes (nicest people I've ever met probably) so I guess it will always depends on what kind of person might be in charge, irrespective of country...No one is monitoring days spent in any country, never mind the Shengen region.
t.
Car bon said:
Phil. said:
It’s not driving out of Spain that needs recording it’s exiting the Schengen zone which I assume requires a passport check or are there road borders into/out of Schengen without passport checks?
They both need recording somehow - at least by you.Leaving Spain is relevant for counting your tax days.
Leaving Schengen is relevant for immigration days.
The rules for the 2 are also different - tax depends on where you are at midnight, so you're only ever in one country per day. Whereas Schengen count every day you're there at all, so both entry & exit day count.
There are entry/exit points where the passport check is somewhat optional eg Andorra & Gibraltar - they may stop you, or you may have to ask, or you may chose just drive straight through.
My understanding is that EES is likely to be pretty much a straight replacement of this - a machine that you can stop at and swipe in / out - though with potentially larger consequences if you get 'caught' in the wrong place.
Given UK residents can only spend a maximum of 180 days per year in the Schengen area under the 90/180 day rule, doesn’t that mean that if you abide by this rule you can never breach the 183 days in a year in any one country for tax reasons, meaning it’s less important to be able to prove (in the case above) when you left Spain by road?
ooid said:
Chris Stott said:
Exactly.
No one is monitoring days spent in any country, never mind the Shengen region.
t.
I wrote it here a few months ago, a border control in Copenhagen literally spent quite a long time to check my wife's passport. She has done numerous work trips into EU that year but nothing major really. I was surprised to see this actually happened when we were returning from Copenhagen to London, after a few days stay and the guy was a complete T*W**. His supervisor came finally and told him off and we left. You would never expect such pedantic behaviour from Danes (nicest people I've ever met probably) so I guess it will always depends on what kind of person might be in charge, irrespective of country...No one is monitoring days spent in any country, never mind the Shengen region.
t.
Unusual perhaps given that most border guards don't bother because it is a lot of work, but pedantic, no, as pedantry is getting involved with trivial details whereas the 90/180 is a pretty significant law that the UK voted to impose on itself.
Prior to obtaining Irish citizenship my UK passport was filling up with stamps and more than once a border guard took a detailed interest in it, including one asking for proof of where I was staying on one trip. Were they "a complete T*W**" for asking for that - of course not - I had chosen to visit their country and they were employed to protect the border and doing what they had been tasked to do.
I do recall the story of this lady in the stamping shenanigans
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advi...
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advi...
Phil. said:
You are absolutely correct.
Given UK residents can only spend a maximum of 180 days per year in the Schengen area under the 90/180 day rule, doesn’t that mean that if you abide by this rule you can never breach the 183 days in a year in any one country for tax reasons, meaning it’s less important to be able to prove (in the case above) when you left Spain by road?
Agree, assuming no other visas are in play. Given UK residents can only spend a maximum of 180 days per year in the Schengen area under the 90/180 day rule, doesn’t that mean that if you abide by this rule you can never breach the 183 days in a year in any one country for tax reasons, meaning it’s less important to be able to prove (in the case above) when you left Spain by road?
I am currently using a French long stay visa for 6 months. That allows you to revert to the 90/180 as soon as it finishes - so you can leave France after 6 months & then immediately re-enter for another 3 if you want to. It's kind of like a 6 month NLV - you have to demonstrate the means to support yourself as a tourist & promise not to work. Then you can re-apply 6 months after the last one expires.
I also spend some time in Spain & my winters in Andorra and <1 month / year in the UK.
From earlier in this thread, it seems like you could have a Spanish NLV for the full year and keep rolling that without becoming tax resident....
Phil. said:
You are absolutely correct.
Given UK residents can only spend a maximum of 180 days per year in the Schengen area under the 90/180 day rule, doesn’t that mean that if you abide by this rule you can never breach the 183 days in a year in any one country for tax reasons, meaning it’s less important to be able to prove (in the case above) when you left Spain by road?
Some UK residents hold EU passports and are not impacted by Schengen limitations, but they do have some limitations on a continuous stay in a single country to 90 days before they need to either register or leave.Given UK residents can only spend a maximum of 180 days per year in the Schengen area under the 90/180 day rule, doesn’t that mean that if you abide by this rule you can never breach the 183 days in a year in any one country for tax reasons, meaning it’s less important to be able to prove (in the case above) when you left Spain by road?
UK passport holders ( a different thing to residents ) and in fact all third country nationals can actually spend 186 days in the Schengen Area in a full leap year ( like 2024 )
It is a rolling 90 in 180 days therefore, if they entered Schengen on New Year's Day 2024 ( day 1 ), leave on March 30 ( day 90 ) return on June 29, ( day 181) again leave on 26 September ( day 270 ) with the second 90 / 180 cycle ending on day 360, which is December 25 2024, they can re-enter on Boxing Day for another 6 days until the end of the year.
So you can actually exceed the 183 days in a calendar year for tax residency purposes.
Very unlikely, but actually possible.
Shnozz said:
I do recall the story of this lady in the stamping shenanigans
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advi...
Thats the Gibraltar / Spain border for you! The Spanish border people have a habit of being a bit arsey from time to timehttps://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advi...
GT03ROB said:
Shnozz said:
I do recall the story of this lady in the stamping shenanigans
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advi...
Thats the Gibraltar / Spain border for you! The Spanish border people have a habit of being a bit arsey from time to timehttps://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advi...
SpidersWeb said:
GT03ROB said:
Shnozz said:
I do recall the story of this lady in the stamping shenanigans
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advi...
Thats the Gibraltar / Spain border for you! The Spanish border people have a habit of being a bit arsey from time to timehttps://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advi...
Everyone in Gib wants this deal sorted… it’s absolutely the best thing hit for the Gib residents and economy.
Gassing Station | Holidays & Travel | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff