Gun Pawn - Warning - Lots of Pictures - as requested

[ErnestM]

rhinochopig said:

ErnestM said:

Sturmgewehr (STG) 44. By the way, German manufacturer GSG are making a rimfire clone due out soon. It was at SHOT 2011.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/01/20/ati-...

ETA...

Woops - just realized that we may not be talking about the same weapon in the piccie...

Edited by ErnestM on Tuesday 22 February 13:48

No we are, the MP 42 was an early version of the 44. Very similar looking, but you were correct - the 42 doesn't have the little rod above the barrel.

You can see the differences here http://www.fjr2.be/Pagina%2016%20-%20Light%20Infan...

Nice site - Bookmarked

[ErnestM]

GixerK5 said:

From what I noted at the time.
L to R MP40, K98, MG42, Lee Enfield No4 MK2, MP44, Garand, BAR, Bren, FG42 MK2 and the Sten behind.
My favorite from the day was the Garand, as nice to fire as the Lee Enfield but with the self loading capability that must have made it much better in combat.
The FG42 is a real beast, the long cartridge from the K98 and a short barrel give a big muzzle flash, a massive bang and a good kick in the shoulder. Happy days!

In the US, you can buy Garands directly from the US Government via the Civilian Marksmanship Program...

http://www.thecmp.org/southstore.htm

The gun show that I went to last weekend also had quite few on offer. The going price was around $500-$700 and they were in good shape. I asked the nice older gentleman that was selling them about them. Apparently he used to be an armourer in the US Army. This is his retirement gig/hobby. He buys the parts from various places and completely refinishes everything including the stocks. Nice rifles but not the lightest firearm ever made. Gent said that he sells a lot to hunters because 30-06 is a preferred deer cartridge. He also had one or two 1903 Springfield bolt guns but those were priced over $1000 IIRC.

[ErnestM]

y2blade said:

Ernest I don't know if it has been covered already, what sort of $$$$'s do guns go for in the states?

not a "loaded" question btw.....I'm just curious

FN FiveseveN about $1000
USPc about $800
Kahr P380 about $750
GI Springfield 1911 about $600
9mm Loaded 1911 about $1000 (match barrel, adjustable sights, ambi safety, etc, etc)

...then you get into the rifles/carbines and it's not the initial price that gets you, it's the goodies

Colt SP1 or similar about $800/$1200 (mine cost me $400 YEARS ago)
Beretta cx4 Storm about $800

-exception to the initial price rule- The POF (SPR rifle) was $2500. Piston AR's with specialized applications goes for a higher amount

Then you get into accesories

The ACOG scope will run about $1000
The Leupold for the SPR was close to $2000
EOTECH with magnifier will run abou $800 all in
Beta C-Mag runs a little over $250

Then there are holsters, slings, etc, etc.

- - -

It's like any other hobby. The better stuff usually costs more. The exception to that are Glocks. Surely they are the AK of pistols and they are not as expensive as comparable HK stuff. The Springfield XD(M) is also an inexpensive poly gun (and has the added benefit of additional safeties over the Glocks)

[ErnestM]

In a further example of how the gun hobby is similar to the car hobby, let me relate to you this...

Remember the new Kel Tec shotgun?

http://www.keltecweapons.com/news/preview-kel-tec-...

Well, apparently it's arrival in retail establishments is imminent. Towit, an email from my father-in-law that CC'd several business owners, my brother-in-law (ex SEAL) and several law enforcement friends...

=====================

From: Tom[[e-mail]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 11:08 PM
To: ErnestM
Cc: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Preorder The NEW Kel Tec KSG Shotgun!

I'll find out and we can try it together! This would be the BEST for home security!!!!

Who else is "IN"? I am sure I will buy one, too!

Ernest, Tell us where and when. ????Gander Mountain?????

Fourteen 12 guage rounds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also saw a special shotgun quick-access wall safe that would be perfect with this one!

=======================

That's right. It's a "group buy" for shotguns. Only in America (as they say)

[ErnestM]

rhinochopig said:

You sure that's a shotgun. Last time I saw one of those it was being carried by the Empire's finest.

That's done it. I guess I'll have to buy one now

[ErnestM]

croyde said:

ErnestM said:

rhinochopig said:

You sure that's a shotgun. Last time I saw one of those it was being carried by the Empire's finest.

That's done it. I guess I'll have to buy one now

Were they not old British sub machine guns with some bits added/taken away.

Sterlings IIRC

[ErnestM]

Jimbeaux said:

Barely used at purchase, well so since then. My wife prefers to send .38s through the .357, far less kick and a bit cheaper as well. Agreed on the .44 Mag; a bit like having a 14 inch pecker, fun to show off but mostly useless.....trust me.

Edited by Jimbeaux on Friday 25th February 03:12

The only things that I don't like about revolvers are reload time and that fact that the double action pull on most normally cause my first shot to land outside of aimpoint. When shooting for accuracy with a revolver I tend to thumbcock first to solve the last problem.

[ErnestM]

FaineantFreddy said:

With practise, double action is more consistent and in time, your accuracy will improve if you always shoot revolvers DA.

I agree. The Kahr P380 is DAO. After many rounds, I know exactly where the break point is. With revolvers, the first shot (finding the break point) is always my weak spot because, as it's not my pistol, I don't know exactly where it breaks.

[ErnestM]

FaineantFreddy said:

Can't say I've ever got on with DA semi-autos, but I think that's probably just because I'm expecting the trigger to be SA!

Try the USP or P99 from decocked mode. Of course, a 1911 negates all of that. To me Glocks really aren't dao due to that whole prestaged striker nonesense. More like sao.

I've never been a wheel gun guy (although my Dad is. He blames my love of semi-autos on all that "long-haired" music and loose living )

[ErnestM]

TVR1 said:

Evening chaps! As usual, England comes to the rescue with the solution to the off target problem. mentioned in passing, earlier on. I give you the Webley Fosbery semi auto revolver....



Also notable as the first revolver with a safety catch, allowing carry whilst cocked.

Edited by TVR1 on Saturday 26th February 20:58

...and, at about 1.5kg (close to 3 US pounds) unloaded, you can always hit your assailant on the head with it if you miss.

It was an interesting design exercise.

[ErnestM]

what's that sticking out the bottom? ^^

[ErnestM]

I think I would pass on the 1911 but the H&K rimfire 416 behind it would probably be pretty fun...

[ErnestM]

[AJ] said:

ErnestM said:

In a further example of how the gun hobby is similar to the car hobby, let me relate to you this...

Remember the new Kel Tec shotgun?

http://www.keltecweapons.com/news/preview-kel-tec-...

That looks rather funky. Probably not much use for clays though!

I agree.

Most will buy it for home defense. However, there is a sport in the US called a three gun competition (handgun, carbine and shotgun) where it could prove ideal.

[ErnestM]

I will try...

ceebmoj said:

1. There is talk of this or that weapon being good for home defence. So what makes a good home defence gun?

One that you are proficient with. You can have the best weapon in the world, but if you don't know how to shoot it, it's a boat anchor.

ceebmoj said:

2. What is your home defence plan?

Alarm is the first line of defense. Get everyone behind me is the second. Cover and concealment in a pre-determined spot via the stairs that gives home invaders neither cover nor concealment.

ceebmoj said:

3. At what point do you start shouting? i.e. do you need to know that are armed or can you just crack on, as soon as that enter your land? Is this any diffident in city's / block of flats.

When you have a safe, clear, shot. Laws vary from State to State. In Florida, it's "Stand Your Ground", so no warnings or retreats necessary.

ceebmoj said:

4. you have successfully defended youer home. However you now have a seriously injured or dead individual in your house / garden. What happen's next? Do you need to try and keep the individual alive?

I am not going to attempt to "clear" my house nor apprehend the individual. My main purpose is to defend my family. I will maintain my defensive posture until the authorities arrive. I'm not a medic. I refuse to turn a succesful defense into a bad situation by approaching somebody that may or may not have secondary concealed weapon.

As in all things PH, just my opinon.

[ErnestM]

Jimbeaux said:

Actually, in the 70s (when liberals were running amok here), there were huge swings toward criminal's rights as well. In the late 70s to very early 80s, victim's rights took center stage. Thank God.

Wrong thread...

[ErnestM]

Pesty said:

ErnestM said:

ceebmoj said:

1. There is talk of this or that weapon being good for home defence. So what makes a good home defence gun?

it's a boat anchor.

Ahh so you think we should use the h&k mk23 then

True that - it weighs as much as that Webley auto-revolver...

[ErnestM]

By the way. Anybody that vacations in Central Florida needs to take a quick drive to Lake Mary (North of Orlando)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-wAXX_ixos

This is the first one in the nation. I checked out the facilities a week or so ago. It's pretty awesome.

[ErnestM]

OK - I promised Jimbeaux some pictures and thought that anyone following this thread would enjoy them too.

I got my BAG Day gun in. It's a Stoeger Cougar 8045F in .45acp. Short history about this firearm; Beretta offered the Cougar (or 8000 series) guns from 1994 until about 2004. They came in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 acp. The Cougar was adopted by a few law enforcement agencies in the US (including the LAPD). Ever see season 1 of CSI:Miami? Horatio uses the Beretta Cougar 8045 in .45acp.

When Beretta withdrew the Cougar in 2004, they shipped the whole production facility to Turkey to it's subsidiary, Stoeger. Stoeger produces licensed Beretta designs for the Turkish military. Anyway, in the meantime, Beretta offered it's CX4 carbine to the public (in the US) in .45 acp. Guess which magazines it uses? That's right, Beretta had some Cougar mags hanging about.

Well, in 2009, Stoeger ramped up the new "Stoeger" Cougar in 9mm. In 2010, they offered it in .45acp, but with a bit of a difference from the Beretta, this one came with a rail (for lasers, lights, etc) Another HUGE difference is the price. Back in the Beretta days, you would be lucky to get an 8045 for less than about $800 US. Now that Stoeger is making them (On the SAME equipment and to the SAME tolerances that Beretta specified) they list for $499. I got mine for $449. So, in essence, you get Beretta quality and wokmanship at 1/2 price.

Well if you look back to page one on this thread, you will notice that I had the CX4 Storm already. I always wanted a Cougar so that I could build a "kit" for both firearms. Well I got one, and here is the kit...


The hard case. pretty unassuming from the outside.


Opened up. If you look carefully, you will see that it contains the CX4 Storm, the Cougar, a SOG multi-tool, a microtech halo III, an X300 light from surefire, the 3x magnifier for the eotech and a single point sling for the Storm.


The Stoger Cougar 8045F


The "kit" unpacked. You need the multitool because the X300 has a cotter pin to keep the battery hatch from opening. The X300 uses123A batteries.


Angled shot


A closeup of just the Cougar area. You can see the Halo III here. Also that tape switch is for the X300. When you use it on the carbine, you can use your support hand to pressure it on or off or just use the button on it for permanent on/off. You can also see the quick release arms mount on the 3x magnifier.


Cougar with the X300


Storm with the same X300. I didn't feel like mucking around with the tape switch


The reason for the purchase - they use the same mags, as you can see in this picture.

Unfortunately there are no commercial "Hi-cap" mags made for the 8045 at this moment. But as the saying goes "I know this guy..." (and he is working on it..)

Enjoy

[ErnestM]

WorAl said:

Ernest, I'm pretty sure I've said this once before on this thread, but just to remind you, I hate you, very much. Just a little bit more now.

That looks like an awesome piece of kit. Home defence? Sport? Targets? combo? or other?

Because I can...

Seriously, though, It gives me a combo carbine/handgun that I can have easy, quick access to for a day at the range, etc. If I want to shoot both carbine/rifle and other handguns it's range bag, pistol case, hand gun case (or cases), etc, etc. (plus mags and dissimilar ammo) If I just want a quick trip out, I can grab this thing and an ammo can, and I'm gone.

I'm considering getting a PS90 and doing a similar thing with my FN FiveseveN. I could actually get away with a smaller case for that combo because of the way the PS90 breaks down.

ETA...

I forgot to show it in the pictures - but behind the top foam I've got some cleaning tools, patches, some syringes of gun grease, oil and clp to use at the range. A also have the manuals for both weapons and the x300 in there.

Edited by ErnestM on Monday 2nd May 03:40

[ErnestM]

bus pass said:

A question for Ernest and Jim if I may?

Lets say that you get stopped by the police for having a brake light out. Is it good practice when the police officer approuches you vehicle to let him / her know that you have a concealed weapon upon your person? If so, what are the police usually like? (I'm assuming very jumpy?).

What happens next? Do you have to make the weapon safe and surrender it to the police officer for the duration of your traffic stop?

Florida cops aren't worried about concealed license holders. My father in law was stopped a few weeks ago and showed his carry license along with his driver's license when he was stopped (although he wasn't required to). He and the police officer spent the next few minutes talking about Sig Sauer (my FIL carries a P238) and then the officer let him off with a warning (verbal, not written)

Hyper-technically, if they take your weapon without placing you under arrest, they have violated State law and the US Constitution (due process clause requires a warrant or just cause)

Police in States like Florida, Louisiana, etc, etc (where guns have not been verbotten) are not jumpy or nervous. The jumpy and nervous ones all work in New York, California and Massachusetts