Opting out of fatherhood
Discussion
singlecoil said:
The unfairness can be illustrated this way-
Two people indulge in consensual sexual intercourse and prior to this they agree that neither wants children. Contraception is therefore used and on one occasion fails. Both parties are aware that a pregnancy has arisen and have a chance to think about it. The woman has the choice to continue it or to terminate it. The man has no such choice. In a society that professes to treat people equally regardless of race, gender etc this is manifestly unfair.
The man can walk away and have absolutely nothing to do with the pregnancy, then send a few quid every month for 18 years. Two people indulge in consensual sexual intercourse and prior to this they agree that neither wants children. Contraception is therefore used and on one occasion fails. Both parties are aware that a pregnancy has arisen and have a chance to think about it. The woman has the choice to continue it or to terminate it. The man has no such choice. In a society that professes to treat people equally regardless of race, gender etc this is manifestly unfair.
How unfair is that?
desolate said:
singlecoil said:
The unfairness can be illustrated this way-
Two people indulge in consensual sexual intercourse and prior to this they agree that neither wants children. Contraception is therefore used and on one occasion fails. Both parties are aware that a pregnancy has arisen and have a chance to think about it. The woman has the choice to continue it or to terminate it. The man has no such choice. In a society that professes to treat people equally regardless of race, gender etc this is manifestly unfair.
The man can walk away and have absolutely nothing to do with the pregnancy, then send a few quid every month for 18 years. Two people indulge in consensual sexual intercourse and prior to this they agree that neither wants children. Contraception is therefore used and on one occasion fails. Both parties are aware that a pregnancy has arisen and have a chance to think about it. The woman has the choice to continue it or to terminate it. The man has no such choice. In a society that professes to treat people equally regardless of race, gender etc this is manifestly unfair.
How unfair is that?
desolate said:
singlecoil said:
Are we discussing such situations, though? You may be, but I'm not. I'm talking about responsible people.
You said that the process of having a child is "manifestly unfair".A man is in total control of whether he becomes a father or not.
Antony Moxey said:
You appear to be saying the sole responsibility for being a parent lies with a man yet the sole choice of being a parent lies with a woman.
No.I'm saying if you don't want to be a father take full responsibility for your own fertility, and for where you choose to put your semen. Do not leave it to others.
singlecoil said:
It's pointless misrepresenting what I said when it's there to be read on the same page.
I'm sorry if i have missed your point.Can you clarify what you meant by this?
"The man has no such choice. In a society that professes to treat people equally regardless of race, gender etc this is manifestly unfair."
desolate said:
singlecoil said:
It's pointless misrepresenting what I said when it's there to be read on the same page.
I'm sorry if i have missed your point.Can you clarify what you meant by this?
"The man has no such choice. In a society that professes to treat people equally regardless of race, gender etc this is manifestly unfair."
singlecoil said:
The unfairness can be illustrated this way-
Two people indulge in consensual sexual intercourse and prior to this they agree that neither wants children. Contraception is therefore used and on one occasion fails. Both parties are aware that a pregnancy has arisen and have a chance to think about it. The woman has the choice to continue it or to terminate it. The man has no such choice. In a society that professes to treat people equally regardless of race, gender etc this is manifestly unfair.
When an unexpected and unwanted pregnancy arises then, as said, the woman has sole control from that point onwards. She can terminate it or have the baby. What choice does the man have?Two people indulge in consensual sexual intercourse and prior to this they agree that neither wants children. Contraception is therefore used and on one occasion fails. Both parties are aware that a pregnancy has arisen and have a chance to think about it. The woman has the choice to continue it or to terminate it. The man has no such choice. In a society that professes to treat people equally regardless of race, gender etc this is manifestly unfair.
desolate said:
singlecoil said:
When an unexpected and unwanted pregnancy arises then, as said, the woman has sole control from that point onwards. She can terminate it or have the baby. What choice does the man have?
I can't see why you think that is "manifestly unfair". singlecoil said:
Bill said:
singlecoil said:
Would it not be fairer to say that they don't want to have the child rather than to not pay for it?
That would certainly make them feel better about not paying for it.Sex carries the risk of impregnation, both parties should shoulder that risk and the potential burden it brings. Pretty much whatever happens the burden for the woman is much greater so the "unfair" claim simply doesn't wash.
Two people indulge in consensual sexual intercourse and prior to this they agree that neither wants children. Contraception is therefore used and on one occasion fails. Both parties are aware that a pregnancy has arisen and have a chance to think about it. The woman has the choice to continue it or to terminate it. The man has no such choice. In a society that professes to treat people equally regardless of race, gender etc this is manifestly unfair.
singlecoil said:
I'll see if I can think of another way to explain it, but I'm not optimistic about my chances.
I understand what you're saying and, for what it's worth, I agree with you. I sense you may be fighting a losing battle, though. This is not a forum for debate, it's a forum for rigidly sticking by your opinion, regardless of anything anyone else says, using emotive phrases and passive-aggressive delivery and defending it until the thread gets locked 
Rawwr said:
singlecoil said:
I'll see if I can think of another way to explain it, but I'm not optimistic about my chances.
I understand what you're saying and, for what it's worth, I agree with you. I sense you may be fighting a losing battle, though. This is not a forum for debate, it's a forum for rigidly sticking by your opinion, regardless of anything anyone else says, using emotive phrases and passive-aggressive delivery and defending it until the thread gets locked desolate said:
Rawwr said:
The man has the choice to punch her in the ovaries, I suppose.
I just don't see how the situation is "manifestly unfair".Do you think it's unfair that men don't get pregnant?
singlecoil said:
The unfairness can be illustrated this way-
Two people indulge in consensual sexual intercourse and prior to this they agree that neither wants children. Contraception is therefore used and on one occasion fails. Both parties are aware that a pregnancy has arisen and have a chance to think about it. The woman has the choice to continue it or to terminate it. The man has no such choice. In a society that professes to treat people equally regardless of race, gender etc this is manifestly unfair.
That's nonsense. What would be unfair (on the child) would be allowing the man to run away from his financial responsibilities.Two people indulge in consensual sexual intercourse and prior to this they agree that neither wants children. Contraception is therefore used and on one occasion fails. Both parties are aware that a pregnancy has arisen and have a chance to think about it. The woman has the choice to continue it or to terminate it. The man has no such choice. In a society that professes to treat people equally regardless of race, gender etc this is manifestly unfair.
Once the pregnancy is happening it is rightly entirely down to the person who is carrying the child. How can the man have any choice in that? He can have influence, assuming he has any sort of relationship with the mother.
Bear in mind, in the balance of fairness the mother is giving up far more than a bit of cash.
Bill said:
What would be unfair (on the child) would be allowing the man to run away from his financial responsibilities.
There is no child at this point. There is a pregnancy.Bill said:
Bear in mind, in the balance of fairness the mother is giving up far more than a bit of cash.
The mother is choosing to give that up.Edited by Rawwr on Friday 25th January 13:10
Bill said:
That's nonsense. What would be unfair (on the child) would be allowing the man to run away from his financial responsibilities.
Once the pregnancy is happening it is rightly entirely down to the person who is carrying the child. How can the man have any choice in that? He can have influence, assuming he has any sort of relationship with the mother.
Bear in mind, in the balance of fairness the mother is giving up far more than a bit of cash.
I think what they are saying is that it is fundamentally unfair that the man can't elect to have an abortion thus ending any parental responsibility. Once the pregnancy is happening it is rightly entirely down to the person who is carrying the child. How can the man have any choice in that? He can have influence, assuming he has any sort of relationship with the mother.
Bear in mind, in the balance of fairness the mother is giving up far more than a bit of cash.
I don't see that at being unfair at all. Obviously some people do.
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