Being told " I don't love you anymore"
Discussion
Cold said:
I suppose it also depends whether you're the leaver or the leavee. (made up word) For some the relationship breaking down comes as a complete surprise, for others it's been planned for a while and I guess your desire to start all over again depends entirely on which one you might be.
Of course, this isn't a 100% representation of all relationships and their potential failures but will encompass a significant amount.
Good postOf course, this isn't a 100% representation of all relationships and their potential failures but will encompass a significant amount.
Pommygranite said:
Many relationships are long over before they are technically over.
Another good point.To which I would add that for those that aren't long gone, the process of separation (/divorce) can provide equivalent time.
Some won't have predicted when a relationship was going to end, it's similar surely with predicting when one is going to start.
Edited by turbobloke on Wednesday 11th January 22:41
Re: Over
The person left often goes into a sort of grieving, and its five steps.
The leaver will be in a completely different place by then, and fully accepted of the fact she [usually] has left. And once that decision is made, nothing, not a thing will change her mind back.
The five steps of grief, if I can remember are,
1. Denial
In this phase our heart rather than our head rules our belief system as we try to adjust to the idea of life without the person we’re losing. Even though we know the relationship is over, we really don’t believe it. Against the better judgment of everyone around us, we can’t help but entertain fantasies of things somehow working out. We see hidden glimmers of hope buried in clear indications that it’s over. Yes, this is the phase where we are most susceptible to late night texting.
2. Bargaining
Bargaining often goes hand in hand with denial. Bargaining can be looking for any possible way to make the relationship work through negotiation, threats, and/or magic – for example, telling your ex that you will change, or move or go to therapy, or telling him he is hurting the children, his family, your family, and the dog by leaving. And, of course, this phase is not only limited to bargaining with your ex. Many people bargain with The Powers That Be, promising to be a better person if only the ex will come back. During this stage, you may take a new interest in astrology, tarot cards or any type of voodoo that will forecast a reunion. This is also when we attempt to enlist all friends and family to “talk some sense” into her.
3. Anger
Anger can manifest in many different ways – anger at your ex (“How could he do this to me? "), anger at God or the universe (“Why can’t anything ever work out for me? Why am I cursed?”), anger at people or situations associated with the break-up ( anger that your partner, because that is when she “changed”), and anger at other people who don’t agree or stand with your anger (“Can you believe George and Jane still want to be friends with him after what he did to me?”). This is the phase where we think it’s a great idea to tell anyone and everyone what a psycho-crazy vixen our ex was. This is also when we think it’s crucial to send our ex hateful emails because we don’t want her thinking she got away with anything.
4. Depression
Depression, like anger, also surfaces in many different forms, for example feeling tired all the time, not wanting to do anything but lay in bed, feeling disconnected from people even when you’re with them, being on the verge of tears most of the time, trouble sleeping or sleeping too much, loss of appetite or overeating, increase in drug or alcohol use and (the big one) hopelessness. Hopelessness is the most pervasive and debilitating, It is the thing that leads us to believe that nothing will ever be or feel different than it is right now. Hopelessness makes it feel like you will never move on and that nothing will ever work out for you in the future.
5. Acceptance
Finally, this is the phase in which we are able to make peace with the loss. It doesn’t always come on suddenly; it often happens gradually, little bit by little bit, interspersed with some of the other phases. Acceptance doesn’t always involve harmony and flowers – there is almost certain to be lingering sadness. Acceptance entails making peace with the loss, letting go of the relationship and slowly moving forward with your life. Sometimes it feels like this phase will never come, which usually means you’re still struggling in an earlier phase.
And that is the way it goes.
Acceptance is where you want to get to.
Indifference.
It doesn't matter if they win the lottery, or go to jail.
Its got F CK all to do with you.
And that, as they say, is the way the cookie crumbles.
Its all about time.
Times the healer.
It just takes time.
The person left often goes into a sort of grieving, and its five steps.
The leaver will be in a completely different place by then, and fully accepted of the fact she [usually] has left. And once that decision is made, nothing, not a thing will change her mind back.
The five steps of grief, if I can remember are,
1. Denial
In this phase our heart rather than our head rules our belief system as we try to adjust to the idea of life without the person we’re losing. Even though we know the relationship is over, we really don’t believe it. Against the better judgment of everyone around us, we can’t help but entertain fantasies of things somehow working out. We see hidden glimmers of hope buried in clear indications that it’s over. Yes, this is the phase where we are most susceptible to late night texting.
2. Bargaining
Bargaining often goes hand in hand with denial. Bargaining can be looking for any possible way to make the relationship work through negotiation, threats, and/or magic – for example, telling your ex that you will change, or move or go to therapy, or telling him he is hurting the children, his family, your family, and the dog by leaving. And, of course, this phase is not only limited to bargaining with your ex. Many people bargain with The Powers That Be, promising to be a better person if only the ex will come back. During this stage, you may take a new interest in astrology, tarot cards or any type of voodoo that will forecast a reunion. This is also when we attempt to enlist all friends and family to “talk some sense” into her.
3. Anger
Anger can manifest in many different ways – anger at your ex (“How could he do this to me? "), anger at God or the universe (“Why can’t anything ever work out for me? Why am I cursed?”), anger at people or situations associated with the break-up ( anger that your partner, because that is when she “changed”), and anger at other people who don’t agree or stand with your anger (“Can you believe George and Jane still want to be friends with him after what he did to me?”). This is the phase where we think it’s a great idea to tell anyone and everyone what a psycho-crazy vixen our ex was. This is also when we think it’s crucial to send our ex hateful emails because we don’t want her thinking she got away with anything.
4. Depression
Depression, like anger, also surfaces in many different forms, for example feeling tired all the time, not wanting to do anything but lay in bed, feeling disconnected from people even when you’re with them, being on the verge of tears most of the time, trouble sleeping or sleeping too much, loss of appetite or overeating, increase in drug or alcohol use and (the big one) hopelessness. Hopelessness is the most pervasive and debilitating, It is the thing that leads us to believe that nothing will ever be or feel different than it is right now. Hopelessness makes it feel like you will never move on and that nothing will ever work out for you in the future.
5. Acceptance
Finally, this is the phase in which we are able to make peace with the loss. It doesn’t always come on suddenly; it often happens gradually, little bit by little bit, interspersed with some of the other phases. Acceptance doesn’t always involve harmony and flowers – there is almost certain to be lingering sadness. Acceptance entails making peace with the loss, letting go of the relationship and slowly moving forward with your life. Sometimes it feels like this phase will never come, which usually means you’re still struggling in an earlier phase.
And that is the way it goes.
Acceptance is where you want to get to.
Indifference.
It doesn't matter if they win the lottery, or go to jail.
Its got F CK all to do with you.
And that, as they say, is the way the cookie crumbles.
Its all about time.
Times the healer.
It just takes time.
stuttgartmetal said:
Re: Over
Acceptance is where you want to get to.
Indifference.
It doesn't matter if they win the lottery, or go to jail.
Its got F CK all to do with you.
And that, as they say, is the way the cookie crumbles.
Its all about time.
Times the healer.
It just takes time.
And there is no timescale, so act when it feels right..Acceptance is where you want to get to.
Indifference.
It doesn't matter if they win the lottery, or go to jail.
Its got F CK all to do with you.
And that, as they say, is the way the cookie crumbles.
Its all about time.
Times the healer.
It just takes time.
Some aspects will take days others months, everybody has a different periodicity
stuttgartmetal said:
Re: Over
The person left often goes into a sort of grieving, and its five steps.
The leaver will be in a completely different place by then, and fully accepted of the fact she [usually] has left. And once that decision is made, nothing, not a thing will change her mind back.
The five steps of grief, if I can remember are,
1. Denial
In this phase our heart rather than our head rules our belief system as we try to adjust to the idea of life without the person we’re losing. Even though we know the relationship is over, we really don’t believe it. Against the better judgment of everyone around us, we can’t help but entertain fantasies of things somehow working out. We see hidden glimmers of hope buried in clear indications that it’s over. Yes, this is the phase where we are most susceptible to late night texting.
2. Bargaining
Bargaining often goes hand in hand with denial. Bargaining can be looking for any possible way to make the relationship work through negotiation, threats, and/or magic – for example, telling your ex that you will change, or move or go to therapy, or telling him he is hurting the children, his family, your family, and the dog by leaving. And, of course, this phase is not only limited to bargaining with your ex. Many people bargain with The Powers That Be, promising to be a better person if only the ex will come back. During this stage, you may take a new interest in astrology, tarot cards or any type of voodoo that will forecast a reunion. This is also when we attempt to enlist all friends and family to “talk some sense” into her.
3. Anger
Anger can manifest in many different ways – anger at your ex (“How could he do this to me? "), anger at God or the universe (“Why can’t anything ever work out for me? Why am I cursed?”), anger at people or situations associated with the break-up ( anger that your partner, because that is when she “changed”), and anger at other people who don’t agree or stand with your anger (“Can you believe George and Jane still want to be friends with him after what he did to me?”). This is the phase where we think it’s a great idea to tell anyone and everyone what a psycho-crazy vixen our ex was. This is also when we think it’s crucial to send our ex hateful emails because we don’t want her thinking she got away with anything.
4. Depression
Depression, like anger, also surfaces in many different forms, for example feeling tired all the time, not wanting to do anything but lay in bed, feeling disconnected from people even when you’re with them, being on the verge of tears most of the time, trouble sleeping or sleeping too much, loss of appetite or overeating, increase in drug or alcohol use and (the big one) hopelessness. Hopelessness is the most pervasive and debilitating, It is the thing that leads us to believe that nothing will ever be or feel different than it is right now. Hopelessness makes it feel like you will never move on and that nothing will ever work out for you in the future.
5. Acceptance
Finally, this is the phase in which we are able to make peace with the loss. It doesn’t always come on suddenly; it often happens gradually, little bit by little bit, interspersed with some of the other phases. Acceptance doesn’t always involve harmony and flowers – there is almost certain to be lingering sadness. Acceptance entails making peace with the loss, letting go of the relationship and slowly moving forward with your life. Sometimes it feels like this phase will never come, which usually means you’re still struggling in an earlier phase.
And that is the way it goes.
Acceptance is where you want to get to.
Indifference.
It doesn't matter if they win the lottery, or go to jail.
Its got F CK all to do with you.
And that, as they say, is the way the cookie crumbles.
Its all about time.
Times the healer.
It just takes time.
My wife of 20 years left me just over 3 years ago, for another. It was all planned on her part. I am still in a mess fluctuating between 1, 3 & 4.The person left often goes into a sort of grieving, and its five steps.
The leaver will be in a completely different place by then, and fully accepted of the fact she [usually] has left. And once that decision is made, nothing, not a thing will change her mind back.
The five steps of grief, if I can remember are,
1. Denial
In this phase our heart rather than our head rules our belief system as we try to adjust to the idea of life without the person we’re losing. Even though we know the relationship is over, we really don’t believe it. Against the better judgment of everyone around us, we can’t help but entertain fantasies of things somehow working out. We see hidden glimmers of hope buried in clear indications that it’s over. Yes, this is the phase where we are most susceptible to late night texting.
2. Bargaining
Bargaining often goes hand in hand with denial. Bargaining can be looking for any possible way to make the relationship work through negotiation, threats, and/or magic – for example, telling your ex that you will change, or move or go to therapy, or telling him he is hurting the children, his family, your family, and the dog by leaving. And, of course, this phase is not only limited to bargaining with your ex. Many people bargain with The Powers That Be, promising to be a better person if only the ex will come back. During this stage, you may take a new interest in astrology, tarot cards or any type of voodoo that will forecast a reunion. This is also when we attempt to enlist all friends and family to “talk some sense” into her.
3. Anger
Anger can manifest in many different ways – anger at your ex (“How could he do this to me? "), anger at God or the universe (“Why can’t anything ever work out for me? Why am I cursed?”), anger at people or situations associated with the break-up ( anger that your partner, because that is when she “changed”), and anger at other people who don’t agree or stand with your anger (“Can you believe George and Jane still want to be friends with him after what he did to me?”). This is the phase where we think it’s a great idea to tell anyone and everyone what a psycho-crazy vixen our ex was. This is also when we think it’s crucial to send our ex hateful emails because we don’t want her thinking she got away with anything.
4. Depression
Depression, like anger, also surfaces in many different forms, for example feeling tired all the time, not wanting to do anything but lay in bed, feeling disconnected from people even when you’re with them, being on the verge of tears most of the time, trouble sleeping or sleeping too much, loss of appetite or overeating, increase in drug or alcohol use and (the big one) hopelessness. Hopelessness is the most pervasive and debilitating, It is the thing that leads us to believe that nothing will ever be or feel different than it is right now. Hopelessness makes it feel like you will never move on and that nothing will ever work out for you in the future.
5. Acceptance
Finally, this is the phase in which we are able to make peace with the loss. It doesn’t always come on suddenly; it often happens gradually, little bit by little bit, interspersed with some of the other phases. Acceptance doesn’t always involve harmony and flowers – there is almost certain to be lingering sadness. Acceptance entails making peace with the loss, letting go of the relationship and slowly moving forward with your life. Sometimes it feels like this phase will never come, which usually means you’re still struggling in an earlier phase.
And that is the way it goes.
Acceptance is where you want to get to.
Indifference.
It doesn't matter if they win the lottery, or go to jail.
Its got F CK all to do with you.
And that, as they say, is the way the cookie crumbles.
Its all about time.
Times the healer.
It just takes time.
Edited by el romeral on Thursday 12th January 21:35
It is definitely much harder for the person being dumped rather than for the Dumper. The person who has decided to leave the marriage has had a long time to think about it and will have mentally left the marriage before they do anything about it. They will most likely already have started looking for someone else and there will be no doubt be someone else in the background (even if they deny it).
So on the whole they are prepared for the breakup and will be cold and calculating because they have mentally left the marriage already. If it is the woman who has decided to end it there is a good chance she will keep the house and be financially provided for which is something else they don't need to worry about. Hate to say it, but women file for divorce over 70% of the time and they usually assume they will keep the lifestyle they already have, they just plan on replacing the husband with the new boyfriend.
For me what hurt the most was the realisation that somebody who I thought had my back and I trusted with my life could take everything I had away from me for another ride on the cock carousel as she thought the grass was greener. Six months of pump and dump and she starts to panic so ends up moving the first wallet she came across into the house. She is back in the situation she was so desperate to get away from yet it is a hundred times more complicated and numerous lives have been destroyed so she could have a bit of excitement.
I on the other hand walked out with two bin bags full of clothes and moved into my parents house. Took me at least 18 months to get my head straight and start to realise it is going to be OK. Trust me nothing can prepare you for the first time you turn up to the house and see the new boyfriends car on the drive.
3 years on and I am now in a position to buy my own house and get on with my life. Although it didn't feel like it at the time I was actually lucky that we managed to sort out the finances fairly amicably compared to some stories I have read.
So on the whole they are prepared for the breakup and will be cold and calculating because they have mentally left the marriage already. If it is the woman who has decided to end it there is a good chance she will keep the house and be financially provided for which is something else they don't need to worry about. Hate to say it, but women file for divorce over 70% of the time and they usually assume they will keep the lifestyle they already have, they just plan on replacing the husband with the new boyfriend.
For me what hurt the most was the realisation that somebody who I thought had my back and I trusted with my life could take everything I had away from me for another ride on the cock carousel as she thought the grass was greener. Six months of pump and dump and she starts to panic so ends up moving the first wallet she came across into the house. She is back in the situation she was so desperate to get away from yet it is a hundred times more complicated and numerous lives have been destroyed so she could have a bit of excitement.
I on the other hand walked out with two bin bags full of clothes and moved into my parents house. Took me at least 18 months to get my head straight and start to realise it is going to be OK. Trust me nothing can prepare you for the first time you turn up to the house and see the new boyfriends car on the drive.
3 years on and I am now in a position to buy my own house and get on with my life. Although it didn't feel like it at the time I was actually lucky that we managed to sort out the finances fairly amicably compared to some stories I have read.
stuttgartmetal said:
Re: Over
The person left often goes into a sort of grieving, and its five steps.
The leaver will be in a completely different place by then, and fully accepted of the fact she [usually] has left. And once that decision is made, nothing, not a thing will change her mind back.
The five steps of grief, if I can remember are,
1. Denial...
You've remembered it very well, word perfect in fact if you compare it with the original The person left often goes into a sort of grieving, and its five steps.
The leaver will be in a completely different place by then, and fully accepted of the fact she [usually] has left. And once that decision is made, nothing, not a thing will change her mind back.
The five steps of grief, if I can remember are,
1. Denial...
el romeral said:
My wife of 20 years left me just over 3 years ago, for another. It was all planned on her part. I am still in a mess fluctuating between 1, 3 & 4.
That's quite normal, don't worry about it. Time certainly heals - eventually. It's just that it can be a blo*dy long time and you look back on it as having wasted those years of your life. In due course you'll rebuild and find yourself in a much happier, more contented, place.Edited by el romeral on Thursday 12th January 22:16
at least your exes were not mental. mine has borderline personality disorder
just the bullet points.
affair with best friends husband and another womam (threesome)
destroyed our twentieth wedding anniversary due to guilt
turned a whole community against me
slept with first geriatric friend of mine daddy issues.
slept with second geriatric friend of mine more daddy issues
we did a year of couples therapy which she avoided the issue by making false rape allegations against a school friends brother and accused her mum of abusing her FALSELY!
i took a year of work to help her and save our marriage.
went back to work and she wanted us to split and me to find happiness with someone else.
i did it was a ploy to portray me as the cheating abusive husband, more alienation in the community.
i have lost my house my dog and my daughter. to this lying cheating harpie.
i loved that dog!
i said ill give you the house pay it of two of three cars and put my daughter through uni.
she said i will consider your offer. nearly in decree absolute.
to this day she has denied all the affairs!
just the bullet points.
affair with best friends husband and another womam (threesome)
destroyed our twentieth wedding anniversary due to guilt
turned a whole community against me
slept with first geriatric friend of mine daddy issues.
slept with second geriatric friend of mine more daddy issues
we did a year of couples therapy which she avoided the issue by making false rape allegations against a school friends brother and accused her mum of abusing her FALSELY!
i took a year of work to help her and save our marriage.
went back to work and she wanted us to split and me to find happiness with someone else.
i did it was a ploy to portray me as the cheating abusive husband, more alienation in the community.
i have lost my house my dog and my daughter. to this lying cheating harpie.
i loved that dog!
i said ill give you the house pay it of two of three cars and put my daughter through uni.
she said i will consider your offer. nearly in decree absolute.
to this day she has denied all the affairs!
Serious question.
A common theme through a good many posts on here is that the wife 'has gone mental'. I know that it's mostly guys on here - I know that guys 'don't understand women' - I know that the women would give a totally different slant to the issue.......
But, medically, is there any genuine explanation for why some women seem to 'go mental' ?
A common theme through a good many posts on here is that the wife 'has gone mental'. I know that it's mostly guys on here - I know that guys 'don't understand women' - I know that the women would give a totally different slant to the issue.......
But, medically, is there any genuine explanation for why some women seem to 'go mental' ?
Robertj21a said:
Serious question.
A common theme through a good many posts on here is that the wife 'has gone mental'. I know that it's mostly guys on here - I know that guys 'don't understand women' - I know that the women would give a totally different slant to the issue.......
But, medically, is there any genuine explanation for why some women seem to 'go mental' ?
mine had borderline personality disorder, its a horrendous condition. where thoughts become reality in their head. everything in their life has to support that reality. A common theme through a good many posts on here is that the wife 'has gone mental'. I know that it's mostly guys on here - I know that guys 'don't understand women' - I know that the women would give a totally different slant to the issue.......
But, medically, is there any genuine explanation for why some women seem to 'go mental' ?
still free now on wards and upwards.
SplatSpeed said:
mine had borderline personality disorder, its a horrendous condition. where thoughts become reality in their head. everything in their life has to support that reality.
still free now on wards and upwards.
I dodged a bullet when I was 20. Had an absolutely stunning girlfriend. Awesome tits, awesome in bed, but every day was seriously hard work. still free now on wards and upwards.
She wasn't mentally stable whatsoever. Had wonderful highs, and painful lows. Can't describe it to well enough to do it justice.
olly22n said:
TheLordJohn said:
SplatSpeed said:
mine had borderline personality disorder, its a horrendous condition. where thoughts become reality in their head. everything in their life has to support that reality.
still free now on wards and upwards.
I dodged a bullet when I was 20. Had an absolutely stunning girlfriend. Awesome tits, awesome in bed, but every day was seriously hard work. still free now on wards and upwards.
She wasn't mentally stable whatsoever. Had wonderful highs, and painful lows. Can't describe it to well enough to do it justice.
But f
k i loved that girl and she very nearly took me down with her.olly22n said:
Oh I know exactly what you mean. My ex gave me estatic highs, and soul crushing lows. The highs were just enough to keep me on the hook for night on 3 years. I can reflect on it now, and she was a very troubled soul and was fighting many of her own demons.
But fk i loved that girl and she very nearly took me down with her.
I used to liken an old GF to a classic car. Superb when running right, but most of the time was spent tinkering get it running right.But f
k i loved that girl and she very nearly took me down with her.Guess I shouldn't be surprised it didn't last.......
SplatSpeed said:
at least your exes were not mental. mine has borderline personality disorder
just the bullet points.
affair with best friends husband and another womam (threesome)
destroyed our twentieth wedding anniversary due to guilt
turned a whole community against me
slept with first geriatric friend of mine daddy issues.
slept with second geriatric friend of mine more daddy issues
we did a year of couples therapy which she avoided the issue by making false rape allegations against a school friends brother and accused her mum of abusing her FALSELY!
i took a year of work to help her and save our marriage.
went back to work and she wanted us to split and me to find happiness with someone else.
i did it was a ploy to portray me as the cheating abusive husband, more alienation in the community.
i have lost my house my dog and my daughter. to this lying cheating harpie.
i loved that dog!
i said ill give you the house pay it of two of three cars and put my daughter through uni.
she said i will consider your offer. nearly in decree absolute.
to this day she has denied all the affairs!
Sounds way too familiar. Even after being separated for over a year, one minute she's begging me to get back together, the next bragging about all the young (18-20 y/o lads) she's very casually seeing, then telling me that she thinks it's normal and realistic to be doing that whilst in a relationship. Good luck to her finding a man who'll put up with that, especially whilst bankrolling her. just the bullet points.
affair with best friends husband and another womam (threesome)
destroyed our twentieth wedding anniversary due to guilt
turned a whole community against me
slept with first geriatric friend of mine daddy issues.
slept with second geriatric friend of mine more daddy issues
we did a year of couples therapy which she avoided the issue by making false rape allegations against a school friends brother and accused her mum of abusing her FALSELY!
i took a year of work to help her and save our marriage.
went back to work and she wanted us to split and me to find happiness with someone else.
i did it was a ploy to portray me as the cheating abusive husband, more alienation in the community.
i have lost my house my dog and my daughter. to this lying cheating harpie.
i loved that dog!
i said ill give you the house pay it of two of three cars and put my daughter through uni.
she said i will consider your offer. nearly in decree absolute.
to this day she has denied all the affairs!
Robertj21a said:
Serious question.
A common theme through a good many posts on here is that the wife 'has gone mental'. I know that it's mostly guys on here - I know that guys 'don't understand women' - I know that the women would give a totally different slant to the issue.......
But, medically, is there any genuine explanation for why some women seem to 'go mental' ?
Women go through hormonal changes throughout their lives, it seems a complete gamble as to how they react to that.A common theme through a good many posts on here is that the wife 'has gone mental'. I know that it's mostly guys on here - I know that guys 'don't understand women' - I know that the women would give a totally different slant to the issue.......
But, medically, is there any genuine explanation for why some women seem to 'go mental' ?
But seriously, they nearly all have the mental, just some are better at masking it than others. Gradually the mask starts to slip, as they get their feet under the table. If you find one that genuinely isn't mental (so hard to tell), make sure you don't loose her (chain her up in your basement or something)!
SplatSpeed said:
mine had borderline personality disorder, its a horrendous condition. where thoughts become reality in their head. everything in their life has to support that reality.
still free now on wards and upwards.
Mine did too. We joke about "the mental" on here, but borderline personality disorder needs to be recognised as something which is quite common in unstable and absuive women and extremely destructive to those in relationships with them. Inform yourselves about it when you have a "wtf" moment when your partner does something completely outrageous or weird.still free now on wards and upwards.
olly22n said:
mikefacel said:
SplatSpeed said:
mine had borderline personality disorder, its a horrendous condition. where thoughts become reality in their head. everything in their life has to support that reality.
still free now on wards and upwards.
Mine did too. We joke about "the mental" on here, but borderline personality disorder needs to be recognised as something which is quite common in unstable and absuive women and extremely destructive to those in relationships with them. Inform yourselves about it when you have a "wtf" moment when your partner does something completely outrageous or weird.still free now on wards and upwards.
And check yourself too, do everything you can to ensure you aren't the cause.
doing really well understand why i stayed so long
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