Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
FamousPheasant said:
Sheepshanks said:
brickwall said:
Rises in house prices and school fees put that position in London well out of the reach of most - and many solid middle class professionals are sending their kids to state schools (where 20 years ago they would have 100% gone private).
Does that mean there are fewer kids at private school in Londoan than 20yrs ago?I was privately educated in Edinburgh 20 years ago and we all came from fairly normal middle class families. Fast forward, my school mates and I are all at the point of having kids and, at the moment from discussion, none are attending,or planning private school.
Even with decent jobs - engineers, surveyors, accountants, doctors - I don't know one who is sending their kids private. House prices and relative wage stagnation compared to our parents seems to be the main reason from what I can see.
When the fees for 2 kids at private school takes up gross income equivalent to 3x the UK average salary, it’s easy to see why they’re *seen* more now as only accessible to the global elite, rather than being attainable for hard-working middle class families.
I went to a state boys' grammar school in the 1980s, while my sister didn't get into the girls' equivalent of my school and ended up at the private school across the road from mine.
I'm not sure whether school results were published in league tables at that time, but when league tables came out, these three schools all had similar, extremely good, exam results.
The big difference, though, was in the facilities and buildings. My school was literally falling apart. Probably about half the classrooms were portakabins which were already past their intended lifespan and featured some torn and broken interior walls and doors. The buildings also included the original mansion, whose bedrooms had been converted into small classrooms for the sixth form. Pupils were banned from using the house's main staircase because it was too weak, so everybody trooped up and down the external iron fire escape. The school's music room was a curious black wooden structure looking like a barn, which had originally been a shooting range, while the canteen was, I think, a converted World War 2 factory. I don't think there was a double-glazed window anywhere on the premises when I started there.
Naturally, the facilities and equipment available matched the state of the buildings, although the staff did their best, and funds were supplemented by fundraising efforts such as a big annual school fair.
At my sister's private school, everything was a shade more modern and better funded.
In some senses, it mattered less then because everybody everywhere was learning using pens and paper, textbooks and blackboards, so you could still just about do that in a freezing, leaking hovel. Nowadays, a shortage of computers and other resources must seriously hamper learning.
In fairness, during the time I was at my school, there was quite a change as new buildings and extensions started to be built, and seeing the school now, the site has been transformed out of all recognition.
As far as I understand it, today 'my' grammar school still has the excellent reputation it always did but there is much harder competition to get into it than in my day. All schools I've visited with my children have a lot of technology that wasn't dreamt of when I was at school, but I expect there will still be a gulf between the average state school and the average private school.
Sorry, mostly off-topic reminiscences...
I'm not sure whether school results were published in league tables at that time, but when league tables came out, these three schools all had similar, extremely good, exam results.
The big difference, though, was in the facilities and buildings. My school was literally falling apart. Probably about half the classrooms were portakabins which were already past their intended lifespan and featured some torn and broken interior walls and doors. The buildings also included the original mansion, whose bedrooms had been converted into small classrooms for the sixth form. Pupils were banned from using the house's main staircase because it was too weak, so everybody trooped up and down the external iron fire escape. The school's music room was a curious black wooden structure looking like a barn, which had originally been a shooting range, while the canteen was, I think, a converted World War 2 factory. I don't think there was a double-glazed window anywhere on the premises when I started there.
Naturally, the facilities and equipment available matched the state of the buildings, although the staff did their best, and funds were supplemented by fundraising efforts such as a big annual school fair.
At my sister's private school, everything was a shade more modern and better funded.
In some senses, it mattered less then because everybody everywhere was learning using pens and paper, textbooks and blackboards, so you could still just about do that in a freezing, leaking hovel. Nowadays, a shortage of computers and other resources must seriously hamper learning.
In fairness, during the time I was at my school, there was quite a change as new buildings and extensions started to be built, and seeing the school now, the site has been transformed out of all recognition.
As far as I understand it, today 'my' grammar school still has the excellent reputation it always did but there is much harder competition to get into it than in my day. All schools I've visited with my children have a lot of technology that wasn't dreamt of when I was at school, but I expect there will still be a gulf between the average state school and the average private school.
Sorry, mostly off-topic reminiscences...
@ sheepshanks But all you end up with is then state schools that are literally only that by name and the houses cost £400k more because they’re in catchment.
London centric of course but a good example is The Hyde Farm estate in Balham, it’s about 10-15 roads with a decent primary and secondary, the catchment is tiny and houses are all IMO quite overpriced because they’re there - everyone that lives there is a well paid professional and basically the school is free but you’re paying overs for the house so much for much.
I hear your points and I agree, we probably will only have one which makes life easier - but is worth noting that of the people we know sending kids private both in London and other places, the majority have wealth in older generations that is paying for it.
London centric of course but a good example is The Hyde Farm estate in Balham, it’s about 10-15 roads with a decent primary and secondary, the catchment is tiny and houses are all IMO quite overpriced because they’re there - everyone that lives there is a well paid professional and basically the school is free but you’re paying overs for the house so much for much.
I hear your points and I agree, we probably will only have one which makes life easier - but is worth noting that of the people we know sending kids private both in London and other places, the majority have wealth in older generations that is paying for it.
FamousPheasant said:
That's an interesting point and lines up with what I'm seeing.
I was privately educated in Edinburgh 20 years ago and we all came from fairly normal middle class families. Fast forward, my school mates and I are all at the point of having kids and, at the moment from discussion, none are attending,or planning private school.
Even with decent jobs - engineers, surveyors, accountants, doctors - I don't know one who is sending their kids private. House prices and relative wage stagnation compared to our parents seems to be the main reason from what I can see.
Grandparents, and I say this as one myself, so am reasonably familiar with it, are chipping in. Or paying completely. And that happened with our friends for the generation before too. And presumably has always happened.I was privately educated in Edinburgh 20 years ago and we all came from fairly normal middle class families. Fast forward, my school mates and I are all at the point of having kids and, at the moment from discussion, none are attending,or planning private school.
Even with decent jobs - engineers, surveyors, accountants, doctors - I don't know one who is sending their kids private. House prices and relative wage stagnation compared to our parents seems to be the main reason from what I can see.
I would also say that, having mixed a bit with parents / grandparents at the school our granddaughter went to that, sure, there's a range of people, but quite a lot of them appear to be just plain wealthy.
Both of ours are in the independent sector. London day pre-prep and prep, now weekly/flexi boarding just outside Brighton. Current thinking is that they'll come back to London for 6th form. Eldest certainly wants to do that. Youngest less certain.
One of the things we have been struck by since our eldest has developed some significant mental health issues recently (see separate thread on that topic) is the outstanding quality and quantity of pastoral care and collaboration with our daughter's clinical team that the school has been able to provide.
I'd hope that no one else would have to find out the quality of this but we have been blown away by how good it has been. As a governor of two state schools, this is something they just would t be able to provide.
One of the things we have been struck by since our eldest has developed some significant mental health issues recently (see separate thread on that topic) is the outstanding quality and quantity of pastoral care and collaboration with our daughter's clinical team that the school has been able to provide.
I'd hope that no one else would have to find out the quality of this but we have been blown away by how good it has been. As a governor of two state schools, this is something they just would t be able to provide.
ClaphamGT3 said:
Both of ours are in the independent sector. London day pre-prep and prep, now weekly/flexi boarding just outside Brighton. Current thinking is that they'll come back to London for 6th form. Eldest certainly wants to do that. Youngest less certain.
One of the things we have been struck by since our eldest has developed some significant mental health issues recently (see separate thread on that topic) is the outstanding quality and quantity of pastoral care and collaboration with our daughter's clinical team that the school has been able to provide.
I'd hope that no one else would have to find out the quality of this but we have been blown away by how good it has been. As a governor of two state schools, this is something they just would t be able to provide.
Just clocked the other thread. Hadn’t seen that - best of luck with that, can’t be easy for anyone concerned. One of the things we have been struck by since our eldest has developed some significant mental health issues recently (see separate thread on that topic) is the outstanding quality and quantity of pastoral care and collaboration with our daughter's clinical team that the school has been able to provide.
I'd hope that no one else would have to find out the quality of this but we have been blown away by how good it has been. As a governor of two state schools, this is something they just would t be able to provide.
Sheepshanks said:
FamousPheasant said:
That's an interesting point and lines up with what I'm seeing.
I was privately educated in Edinburgh 20 years ago and we all came from fairly normal middle class families. Fast forward, my school mates and I are all at the point of having kids and, at the moment from discussion, none are attending,or planning private school.
Even with decent jobs - engineers, surveyors, accountants, doctors - I don't know one who is sending their kids private. House prices and relative wage stagnation compared to our parents seems to be the main reason from what I can see.
Grandparents, and I say this as one myself, so am reasonably familiar with it, are chipping in. Or paying completely. And that happened with our friends for the generation before too. And presumably has always happened.I was privately educated in Edinburgh 20 years ago and we all came from fairly normal middle class families. Fast forward, my school mates and I are all at the point of having kids and, at the moment from discussion, none are attending,or planning private school.
Even with decent jobs - engineers, surveyors, accountants, doctors - I don't know one who is sending their kids private. House prices and relative wage stagnation compared to our parents seems to be the main reason from what I can see.
I would also say that, having mixed a bit with parents / grandparents at the school our granddaughter went to that, sure, there's a range of people, but quite a lot of them appear to be just plain wealthy.
okgo said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
Both of ours are in the independent sector. London day pre-prep and prep, now weekly/flexi boarding just outside Brighton. Current thinking is that they'll come back to London for 6th form. Eldest certainly wants to do that. Youngest less certain.
One of the things we have been struck by since our eldest has developed some significant mental health issues recently (see separate thread on that topic) is the outstanding quality and quantity of pastoral care and collaboration with our daughter's clinical team that the school has been able to provide.
I'd hope that no one else would have to find out the quality of this but we have been blown away by how good it has been. As a governor of two state schools, this is something they just would t be able to provide.
Just clocked the other thread. Hadn’t seen that - best of luck with that, can’t be easy for anyone concerned. One of the things we have been struck by since our eldest has developed some significant mental health issues recently (see separate thread on that topic) is the outstanding quality and quantity of pastoral care and collaboration with our daughter's clinical team that the school has been able to provide.
I'd hope that no one else would have to find out the quality of this but we have been blown away by how good it has been. As a governor of two state schools, this is something they just would t be able to provide.
ChocolateFrog said:
Most of you have clearly never been anywhere near an average or below state school.
It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.
I did - truly mediocre in every meaningful way and took me years longer than necessary to engage properly with the real world.It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.
Both offspring have been sent private, latterly expensively so. There were a few moments earlier on where we had doubt (and had to scrape the fees) but latterly it’s all borne fruit. It’s not for every child though and I believe you need to pick the school that’s right for the child (state and/or private).
They are different these days, both more elitist but also offering a much more rounded pastoral education that hopefully balance each other out somewhat. Boarding fees for the nobby schools are broadly £50k each once extras are included, so nigh on £200k gross for 2. That’s why there are far fewer local solicitor/publican/major’s offspring than there were, the arms race around facilities means they’re more akin to a country club now.
ChocolateFrog said:
Most of you have clearly never been anywhere near an average or below state school.
It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.
This is a really good point.It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.
The three state schools closest to us are all doing very well, which does skew things a bit.
I imagine if they were all s
t, we'd either move or make the sacrifices required to afford fees.I should be, and am, grateful.
numtumfutunch said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Most of you have clearly never been anywhere near an average or below state school.
It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.
I went to oneIt just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.
My parents/grandparents couldnt afford to send me anywhere else
Im not alone in that respect
ChocolateFrog said:
Most of you have clearly never been anywhere near an average or below state school.
It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.
I attended a very rough state school in northern England in the 80's. All three of my kids now go to private school, and the difference is night and day. A very good state school and an average private school may be similar, but an average state school and a decent private school are worlds apart. It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.
A couple of considerations (for the record, I was privately educated, as were my three children):
- If your child is Oxbridge material, the entry requirements are very heavily stacked against them. A lot of parents will put their kids in state six form colleges so that they tick the "state school entry" box. No other university is really called out on state vs private entry, so the pressure is less elsewhere. US Ivy League colleges have no qualms - but they are expensive unless you can win a sporting scholarship (a lot of the Eton/St Pauls/Radley first VIII crews seemingly now go to US colleges).
- When you consider the cost, would you be better off just, say, buying a property for you child? 12 years of £25k+ pays a chunky mortgage, particularly if you rent it out until they graduate university. They might not have quite the education but they go have a mortgage free property to give them security.
AstonZagato said:
A couple of considerations (for the record, I was privately educated, as were my three children):
Fair points re entry to such universities. It was why I started the thread of course, but now having seen the gulf I’d still rather just pay for the time being, if we move house at a later date and the potential is there I suppose some form of- If your child is Oxbridge material, the entry requirements are very heavily stacked against them. A lot of parents will put their kids in state six form colleges so that they tick the "state school entry" box. No other university is really called out on state vs private entry, so the pressure is less elsewhere. US Ivy League colleges have no qualms - but they are expensive unless you can win a sporting scholarship (a lot of the Eton/St Pauls/Radley first VIII crews seemingly now go to US colleges).
- When you consider the cost, would you be better off just, say, buying a property for you child? 12 years of £25k+ pays a chunky mortgage, particularly if you rent it out until they graduate university. They might not have quite the education but they go have a mortgage free property to give them security.
system gaming can be conducted at a later point.
The house thing is a separate debate IMO, probably lucky to be able to do both but not sure I agree with gifting of a property in totality, it was what kept me motivated to some extent in my early 20’s. But each to their own on that front.
Pertinent thread
We have a 13 year old that's in State school ironically this state School when I was at high school was the golden one in our district and people regularly used to move into catchment even back in the early 90s to get into this school. It would appear its gone a bit downhill but our DD just hasn't settled she is in year 8 and just struggling a bit with kids being a bit mean not what I would call bullying but its is a concern. 18 months into starting she's very unhappy.
Near us we have a small independent school which we are going to have a look at next week its sort of a halfway house inbetween a very expensive private school in town and the local comp. The fees are pretty modest at about £8000 pa. I drive past it to get to work and the carpark is not flash at all I suspect its probably a lot of parents like us just working class but wanting that bit more.
I'm struggling with it as generally I just don't believe in the concept of private schooling (plus the fact they get charity status but that's another matter) At the age of 43 I look around at my peers and I have never been convinced of the absolute benefit. I know extremely wealthy people that are self made and went to my school (comp) and likewise I know people that were privately educated and haven't really done much with theirselves.
Ultimately you of course would do anything for your kids so the decision lies with the sprog! A lot of talk on this thread is talking £25k PA which I guess is London rates our local "posh" one which I believe is quite highly regarded is £15000PA
The other problem we have which is a big complicating factor for us is we also have younger twins so realistically as the eldest comes out we would have double trouble going in. Has anyone got experience of having one private and the other sibling not? Would seem grodssly unfair to me but as with us there are genuine reasons for considering it!
We have a 13 year old that's in State school ironically this state School when I was at high school was the golden one in our district and people regularly used to move into catchment even back in the early 90s to get into this school. It would appear its gone a bit downhill but our DD just hasn't settled she is in year 8 and just struggling a bit with kids being a bit mean not what I would call bullying but its is a concern. 18 months into starting she's very unhappy.
Near us we have a small independent school which we are going to have a look at next week its sort of a halfway house inbetween a very expensive private school in town and the local comp. The fees are pretty modest at about £8000 pa. I drive past it to get to work and the carpark is not flash at all I suspect its probably a lot of parents like us just working class but wanting that bit more.
I'm struggling with it as generally I just don't believe in the concept of private schooling (plus the fact they get charity status but that's another matter) At the age of 43 I look around at my peers and I have never been convinced of the absolute benefit. I know extremely wealthy people that are self made and went to my school (comp) and likewise I know people that were privately educated and haven't really done much with theirselves.
Ultimately you of course would do anything for your kids so the decision lies with the sprog! A lot of talk on this thread is talking £25k PA which I guess is London rates our local "posh" one which I believe is quite highly regarded is £15000PA
The other problem we have which is a big complicating factor for us is we also have younger twins so realistically as the eldest comes out we would have double trouble going in. Has anyone got experience of having one private and the other sibling not? Would seem grodssly unfair to me but as with us there are genuine reasons for considering it!
Edited by fridaypassion on Thursday 9th March 09:31
ChocolateFrog said:
Most of you have clearly never been anywhere near an average or below state school.
It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.
You have a good point. Like if you have a reasonable salary you’ll probably live in a decent area, with people similar to you. It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.
There I lived before the state schools were fine, they were mainly made up of children from doctors, lawyers, accountants, people in senior positions as they are the only ones who can afford the local house prices.
So you get a similar intake as an independent school in a different area.
Puzzles said:
What would be a better head start in life, private school or starting out with £300k+ in your pocket?
Of course if you’re wealthy enough why not, but there are an awful lot of parents who send their children private who make big sacrifices to do so.
Or grandparents fund it after a downsize. Of course if you’re wealthy enough why not, but there are an awful lot of parents who send their children private who make big sacrifices to do so.
Our youngest would have coped just as well at the local comp however our Son needed more one to one so after sending him we couldn’t refuse her.
I will say it’s the best thing we could have done for our Son but I appreciate there are many kids that might not benefit as much.
I’ve just a few more months left of fees and whilst I’m pleased we did it I’m so happy to be nearing the end !
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