Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
Strange how parents, schools and less so children are conditioned to think of only results, factories measured on grades.
I went to minor public school and prep school. Parents really struggled to pay for it but managed. We got scholarships as we got older so reduced the fee burden which helped.
I now send my daughter to a very pricey prep school and would not do anything other unless we went bankrupt. For me schooling has little to do with grades, that is pretty much bottom of my priorities. It is about educating, not teaching. It is about activities and social engagement, confidence, public speaking and the like. At our daughter's school their ethos is Latin and the outdoors. At my prep school the Head Master said they take pride in sending the children home dirty with cut knees which sold it completely to my mum.
Then there are the social things. Like it or not, a state school will have the disruptive pupils from difficult homes, rough kids and parents too. Although they will all drive brand new Range Rovers, but that is another topic.
Finally there is the all round care. My daughter is at school for 0815 and the day ends at five. If she was at a comp, leaving at 1430 would be a real pain and she would spend far less time with her friends.
Horses for courses, but I wouldn't change it. If/when labour get into power I'd be amazed if they pursued private schools agenda but they are mad so who knows. If they added VAT it would be a real struggle but I would find a way.
I went to minor public school and prep school. Parents really struggled to pay for it but managed. We got scholarships as we got older so reduced the fee burden which helped.
I now send my daughter to a very pricey prep school and would not do anything other unless we went bankrupt. For me schooling has little to do with grades, that is pretty much bottom of my priorities. It is about educating, not teaching. It is about activities and social engagement, confidence, public speaking and the like. At our daughter's school their ethos is Latin and the outdoors. At my prep school the Head Master said they take pride in sending the children home dirty with cut knees which sold it completely to my mum.
Then there are the social things. Like it or not, a state school will have the disruptive pupils from difficult homes, rough kids and parents too. Although they will all drive brand new Range Rovers, but that is another topic.
Finally there is the all round care. My daughter is at school for 0815 and the day ends at five. If she was at a comp, leaving at 1430 would be a real pain and she would spend far less time with her friends.
Horses for courses, but I wouldn't change it. If/when labour get into power I'd be amazed if they pursued private schools agenda but they are mad so who knows. If they added VAT it would be a real struggle but I would find a way.
Edited by Tom8 on Thursday 9th March 10:28
The quality of state education is so variable, it is so much down to what is available locally. For us that means private for our three. They all have varying levels of dyslexia and are sport mad. This alone has cemented our decision.
The charity status thing is something of a red herring IMO. Very few independent schools are profit orientated. If charitable status was removed, they would be able to reclaim VAT which they can't at the moment. VAT on school fees would hurt parents, but I suspect fees would then stagnate for a while. Up here in Scotland removal of charitable status would be controversial as all schools have passed charity tests by the regulator who has come out against removal. Education is also classed as vat exempt at the moment, so that would have to change, and any argument that it ought to be treated as a consumption tax is bonkers.
In a perfect world all parents would have some kind of tax credit that would follow the child wherever they went. The left-wing, ban private schools mantra is laughable given the lack of state capacity, and the inevitable explosion in private tuition if they ever tried to pull it off.
The charity status thing is something of a red herring IMO. Very few independent schools are profit orientated. If charitable status was removed, they would be able to reclaim VAT which they can't at the moment. VAT on school fees would hurt parents, but I suspect fees would then stagnate for a while. Up here in Scotland removal of charitable status would be controversial as all schools have passed charity tests by the regulator who has come out against removal. Education is also classed as vat exempt at the moment, so that would have to change, and any argument that it ought to be treated as a consumption tax is bonkers.
In a perfect world all parents would have some kind of tax credit that would follow the child wherever they went. The left-wing, ban private schools mantra is laughable given the lack of state capacity, and the inevitable explosion in private tuition if they ever tried to pull it off.
Tom8 said:
Horses for courses, but I wouldn't change it. If/when labour get into power I'd be amazed if they pursued private schools agenda but they are mad so who knows. If they added VAT it would be a real struggle but I would find a way.
They absolutely will sadly. Dismantling the independent schools sector is an inviolate article of faith for Reeves and Phillipson. It's bad politics, its bad economics but they are 100% committed to itEdited by Tom8 on Thursday 9th March 10:28
okgo said:
@ sheepshanks But all you end up with is then state schools that are literally only that by name and the houses cost £400k more because they’re in catchment.
London centric of course but a good example is The Hyde Farm estate in Balham, it’s about 10-15 roads with a decent primary and secondary, the catchment is tiny and houses are all IMO quite overpriced because they’re there - everyone that lives there is a well paid professional and basically the school is free but you’re paying overs for the house so much for much.
I hear your points and I agree, we probably will only have one which makes life easier - but is worth noting that of the people we know sending kids private both in London and other places, the majority have wealth in older generations that is paying for it.
I guess the difference is that the house is unlikely to lose money, so it's just availability and the stamp duty.London centric of course but a good example is The Hyde Farm estate in Balham, it’s about 10-15 roads with a decent primary and secondary, the catchment is tiny and houses are all IMO quite overpriced because they’re there - everyone that lives there is a well paid professional and basically the school is free but you’re paying overs for the house so much for much.
I hear your points and I agree, we probably will only have one which makes life easier - but is worth noting that of the people we know sending kids private both in London and other places, the majority have wealth in older generations that is paying for it.
Anyone done state primary followed by private secondary? My son's currently at a nursery which is attached to a private primary but current thinking is he'll go to the local state primary (closer and "oustanding") and we'll re-evaluate when he gets to secondary age. I suspect most of the private schools around me are filled with the kids of footballers anyway so perhaps not the kids I'd want him mixing with
ClaphamGT3 said:
Both of ours are in the independent sector. London day pre-prep and prep, now weekly/flexi boarding just outside Brighton. Current thinking is that they'll come back to London for 6th form. Eldest certainly wants to do that. Youngest less certain.
One of the things we have been struck by since our eldest has developed some significant mental health issues recently (see separate thread on that topic) is the outstanding quality and quantity of pastoral care and collaboration with our daughter's clinical team that the school has been able to provide.
I'd hope that no one else would have to find out the quality of this but we have been blown away by how good it has been. As a governor of two state schools, this is something they just would t be able to provide.
Out of interest what made you go with boarding? Did the kids like the idea? One of the things we have been struck by since our eldest has developed some significant mental health issues recently (see separate thread on that topic) is the outstanding quality and quantity of pastoral care and collaboration with our daughter's clinical team that the school has been able to provide.
I'd hope that no one else would have to find out the quality of this but we have been blown away by how good it has been. As a governor of two state schools, this is something they just would t be able to provide.
JimmyConwayNW said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
Both of ours are in the independent sector. London day pre-prep and prep, now weekly/flexi boarding just outside Brighton. Current thinking is that they'll come back to London for 6th form. Eldest certainly wants to do that. Youngest less certain.
One of the things we have been struck by since our eldest has developed some significant mental health issues recently (see separate thread on that topic) is the outstanding quality and quantity of pastoral care and collaboration with our daughter's clinical team that the school has been able to provide.
I'd hope that no one else would have to find out the quality of this but we have been blown away by how good it has been. As a governor of two state schools, this is something they just would t be able to provide.
Out of interest what made you go with boarding? Did the kids like the idea? One of the things we have been struck by since our eldest has developed some significant mental health issues recently (see separate thread on that topic) is the outstanding quality and quantity of pastoral care and collaboration with our daughter's clinical team that the school has been able to provide.
I'd hope that no one else would have to find out the quality of this but we have been blown away by how good it has been. As a governor of two state schools, this is something they just would t be able to provide.
Ultimately, the boarding decision was driven by the sense of community, the wider opportunities for participation in activities and school life and a sense that flexi/weekly boarding gives them the best of both worlds
ClaphamGT3 said:
Tom8 said:
Horses for courses, but I wouldn't change it. If/when labour get into power I'd be amazed if they pursued private schools agenda but they are mad so who knows. If they added VAT it would be a real struggle but I would find a way.
They absolutely will sadly. Dismantling the independent schools sector is an inviolate article of faith for Reeves and Phillipson. It's bad politics, its bad economics but they are 100% committed to itEdited by Tom8 on Thursday 9th March 10:28
ClaphamGT3 said:
Hi. Children both had the choice. They both got into London day schools and the school that they are at. We talked them through the options and the pro's and con's of each. We were guided by each of them in the final choice. We also agreed that, if they boarded, we would buy a place in Brighton/Hove so that we could be on hand. This has proved to work really well.
Ultimately, the boarding decision was driven by the sense of community, the wider opportunities for participation in activities and school life and a sense that flexi/weekly boarding gives them the best of both worlds
Make sure you stay close to them.Ultimately, the boarding decision was driven by the sense of community, the wider opportunities for participation in activities and school life and a sense that flexi/weekly boarding gives them the best of both worlds
I chose to go boarding too, as a kid. First couple of years were great, but eventually I can only say "my face no longer fit". It wasn't the schools fault, I was just in a small boarding house, I was the youngest in my year by quite some margin and I just didn't fit in any more. Perhaps the school should have identified and flagged this - but things didn't work that way back then.
The last 3 years as a boarder were terrible and my parents were oblivious - by then I was a teenager who didn't talk to my parents anyway. But I had nightmares about the place for many years after. It's odd, I know many of the lads there really enjoyed it - but it just wasn't for me. I discussed this with my mother many years later and they had no clue. They noticed the change in me, but thought that was just me being grumpy teenager.
On the general "private school" discussion, despite my dislike of my private boarding school experience, we are considering send our kids to the local private schools - although as day pupils. The local state schools are OK, but I can see that for both of our kids, private will bring each of them some additional support that I think they'll benefit from. On the longer term, who can say if it'll ultimately make a difference to their lives, but I want to give them the best choices and options I can and if I can afford it, I'll do it.
My 2x best mates from middle school (which was a state school) - one of them (Alex) is in the same industry as me now, smart guy, but I can also see he never found a way to "release the shackles". And my other mate (Nick) went on to be the "hellraiser" at state secondary school and drifts around doing unskilled building work now. Would either of them have found a different path if they'd gone to private school? I don't know, but I feel sure it wouldn't have had any negative effect on their career prospects.
Edited by Arnold Cunningham on Thursday 9th March 11:13
Tom8 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
Tom8 said:
Horses for courses, but I wouldn't change it. If/when labour get into power I'd be amazed if they pursued private schools agenda but they are mad so who knows. If they added VAT it would be a real struggle but I would find a way.
They absolutely will sadly. Dismantling the independent schools sector is an inviolate article of faith for Reeves and Phillipson. It's bad politics, its bad economics but they are 100% committed to itEdited by Tom8 on Thursday 9th March 10:28
I have read this with interest. I grew up and just went to the local primary and then a normal high school.
Currently moving my yr3 primary stepdaughter to a private school. She starts very soon after much research into them.
Also signed up the youngest 2 for when they start over the next couple of years.
I looked around a few private schools, 2 schools were in the running and I wanted them to go to another 2 with no intention just comparison.
I thought you could throw money at the education, the schools would gladly take them and then kind of educate them the best they could. I hadn't realised how academically selective they could be, particularly with a 7year old who is at a low academic ability for her age. That was an eye opener.
What I found was that compared to a state primary there is a lot more opportunity. So much more sports and extra curricular activity for the kids. It isn't just about the basic education. I also felt that the school day was 90 mins longer at the private option. Thats an extra 7.5 hours a day for the kid thats
If doing drama its in a theatre, music is in a music room, art in the art room etc. Lots of great facilities which I really like the look of.
One of the things I really liked during a visit on a snowy day the kids were encouraged to be outside, playing and just getting on with it. At her state school its all so risk averse.
Another point was some of the BS that gets forced upon them in the curriculum. I don't really want my primary age kid having to learn about some of the modern LGBTQ at a primary age.
For the 7yr old I think its going to be a bit make or break for her. I think in classes of half the size with a teaching assistant in there its a ratio of 1 to 6 or 1 to 7 compared to her current primary of 1 to 30 with occasional teaching assistant input but mainly spent dealing with a couple of disruptive naughty kids.
I am really hoping it transforms her academic ability just so shes at her full potential and hopefully have a positive update before the summer holidays and into next year.
Currently moving my yr3 primary stepdaughter to a private school. She starts very soon after much research into them.
Also signed up the youngest 2 for when they start over the next couple of years.
I looked around a few private schools, 2 schools were in the running and I wanted them to go to another 2 with no intention just comparison.
I thought you could throw money at the education, the schools would gladly take them and then kind of educate them the best they could. I hadn't realised how academically selective they could be, particularly with a 7year old who is at a low academic ability for her age. That was an eye opener.
What I found was that compared to a state primary there is a lot more opportunity. So much more sports and extra curricular activity for the kids. It isn't just about the basic education. I also felt that the school day was 90 mins longer at the private option. Thats an extra 7.5 hours a day for the kid thats
If doing drama its in a theatre, music is in a music room, art in the art room etc. Lots of great facilities which I really like the look of.
One of the things I really liked during a visit on a snowy day the kids were encouraged to be outside, playing and just getting on with it. At her state school its all so risk averse.
Another point was some of the BS that gets forced upon them in the curriculum. I don't really want my primary age kid having to learn about some of the modern LGBTQ at a primary age.
For the 7yr old I think its going to be a bit make or break for her. I think in classes of half the size with a teaching assistant in there its a ratio of 1 to 6 or 1 to 7 compared to her current primary of 1 to 30 with occasional teaching assistant input but mainly spent dealing with a couple of disruptive naughty kids.
I am really hoping it transforms her academic ability just so shes at her full potential and hopefully have a positive update before the summer holidays and into next year.
ClaphamGT3 said:
Tom8 said:
Horses for courses, but I wouldn't change it. If/when labour get into power I'd be amazed if they pursued private schools agenda but they are mad so who knows. If they added VAT it would be a real struggle but I would find a way.
They absolutely will sadly. Dismantling the independent schools sector is an inviolate article of faith for Reeves and Phillipson. It's bad politics, its bad economics but they are 100% committed to itEdited by Tom8 on Thursday 9th March 10:28
Who should pay more tax?
The rich!
Who are the rich?
Anyone with more money than me!
The soundbite around charitable status for private schools plays well to the Labour core voters but in reality it means that many parents won’t be able to afford +20% fees and smaller schools will become non-viable thereby placing an immediate additional burden on the State system that would absorb any additional funds they think it would generate. I’ve not heard a single Labour proponent of the policy acknowledge this (or even be challenged on it by the media, who allow them to continue to make the facile statement that all it would do would raise funds to improve the State system).
Having said that, having Boris and his peer group of ex-Etonian Bovingdon Club morons as the representative public face of private schools, it’s an easy target.
I’d still take them over Angela Rayner, however, who celebrates her lack of education and qualifications as some kind of badge of honour.
Ah the snow panic.
This from our primary this morning
It's not really getting resilience over to the kids.
Meanwhile today I'm travelling to the other end of the country and back via train/car. Already had a couple of problems on the way. Worked around them and cracking on. The school are always like this they are absolutely determined to close.
This from our primary this morning
It's not really getting resilience over to the kids.
Meanwhile today I'm travelling to the other end of the country and back via train/car. Already had a couple of problems on the way. Worked around them and cracking on. The school are always like this they are absolutely determined to close.
fridaypassion said:
Ah the snow panic.
This from our primary this morning
It's not really getting resilience over to the kids.
Meanwhile today I'm travelling to the other end of the country and back via train/car. Already had a couple of problems on the way. Worked around them and cracking on. The school are always like this they are absolutely determined to close.
And then as an employer you wonder why someone won't come in at the slightest flurry of sleet..... utterly pathetic isn't it.This from our primary this morning
It's not really getting resilience over to the kids.
Meanwhile today I'm travelling to the other end of the country and back via train/car. Already had a couple of problems on the way. Worked around them and cracking on. The school are always like this they are absolutely determined to close.
fridaypassion said:
Ah the snow panic.
This from our primary this morning
It's not really getting resilience over to the kids.
Meanwhile today I'm travelling to the other end of the country and back via train/car. Already had a couple of problems on the way. Worked around them and cracking on. The school are always like this they are absolutely determined to close.
Echoes my earlier point. Idle state teachers are not a role model I want for my child. This from our primary this morning
It's not really getting resilience over to the kids.
Meanwhile today I'm travelling to the other end of the country and back via train/car. Already had a couple of problems on the way. Worked around them and cracking on. The school are always like this they are absolutely determined to close.
It certainly is!
On the subject of schools again one thing I noticed reading the Offsted for the one we're looking at is that every single pupil went onto further education.
I find this a bit odd is this normal? Or are things like apprenticeships considered "further education"? Being self employed and only GCSE educated I really don't want to drill it into my kids that Uni is the only option that's available to them.
On the subject of schools again one thing I noticed reading the Offsted for the one we're looking at is that every single pupil went onto further education.
I find this a bit odd is this normal? Or are things like apprenticeships considered "further education"? Being self employed and only GCSE educated I really don't want to drill it into my kids that Uni is the only option that's available to them.
fridaypassion said:
It certainly is!
On the subject of schools again one thing I noticed reading the Offsted for the one we're looking at is that every single pupil went onto further education.
I find this a bit odd is this normal? Or are things like apprenticeships considered "further education"? Being self employed and only GCSE educated I really don't want to drill it into my kids that Uni is the only option that's available to them.
'Further' just means pretty much anything beyond GCSEs , I think, whereas 'higher' is university.On the subject of schools again one thing I noticed reading the Offsted for the one we're looking at is that every single pupil went onto further education.
I find this a bit odd is this normal? Or are things like apprenticeships considered "further education"? Being self employed and only GCSE educated I really don't want to drill it into my kids that Uni is the only option that's available to them.
Tom8 said:
Like it or not, a state school will have the disruptive pupils from difficult homes, rough kids and parents too.
Don't think independent schools are immune from that - plenty of entitled kids that no one has ever said "no" to. These days schools often can't afford to be kicking kids out left, right and centre.Tom8 said:
Strange how parents, schools and less so children are conditioned to think of only results, factories measured on grades.
I went to minor public school and prep school. Parents really struggled to pay for it but managed. We got scholarships as we got older so reduced the fee burden which helped.
I now send my daughter to a very pricey prep school and would not do anything other unless we went bankrupt. For me schooling has little to do with grades, that is pretty much bottom of my priorities. It is about educating, not teaching. It is about activities and social engagement, confidence, public speaking and the like. At our daughter's school their ethos is Latin and the outdoors. At my prep school the Head Master said they take pride in sending the children home dirty with cut knees which sold it completely to my mum.
Then there are the social things. Like it or not, a state school will have the disruptive pupils from difficult homes, rough kids and parents too. Although they will all drive brand new Range Rovers, but that is another topic.
Finally there is the all round care. My daughter is at school for 0815 and the day ends at five. If she was at a comp, leaving at 1430 would be a real pain and she would spend far less time with her friends.
Horses for courses, but I wouldn't change it. If/when labour get into power I'd be amazed if they pursued private schools agenda but they are mad so who knows. If they added VAT it would be a real struggle but I would find a way.
Agree with you there Tom. I lived in an area where the local schools were poor and my parents sent me to Prep school and then onto Public School. It was very much about producing a well rounded upstanding citizen than pure results. The results were easy to achieve because of small classes, a much longer school day and even Saturday AM schooling - you simply had more hours. Enrichment was far better back then then although many grammar and academy schools have caught up a lot. I can fly, shoot, sail etc. The only downside of public school/boarding was that your friends were often many hours away and it was difficult to have the holiday friendships.I went to minor public school and prep school. Parents really struggled to pay for it but managed. We got scholarships as we got older so reduced the fee burden which helped.
I now send my daughter to a very pricey prep school and would not do anything other unless we went bankrupt. For me schooling has little to do with grades, that is pretty much bottom of my priorities. It is about educating, not teaching. It is about activities and social engagement, confidence, public speaking and the like. At our daughter's school their ethos is Latin and the outdoors. At my prep school the Head Master said they take pride in sending the children home dirty with cut knees which sold it completely to my mum.
Then there are the social things. Like it or not, a state school will have the disruptive pupils from difficult homes, rough kids and parents too. Although they will all drive brand new Range Rovers, but that is another topic.
Finally there is the all round care. My daughter is at school for 0815 and the day ends at five. If she was at a comp, leaving at 1430 would be a real pain and she would spend far less time with her friends.
Horses for courses, but I wouldn't change it. If/when labour get into power I'd be amazed if they pursued private schools agenda but they are mad so who knows. If they added VAT it would be a real struggle but I would find a way.
Edited by Tom8 on Thursday 9th March 10:28
The Vikingettes went to local primary and grammar simply because most primaries in our area are outstanding and the grammar schools are selective which weeds out the dross that don't want to learn.
The crazy thing about Labour/private schools is that you would effectively put more pupils back into state education and make most schools harder to get into. More pupils will be displaced and there would be more travel.
vikingaero said:
The crazy thing about Labour/private schools is that you would effectively put more pupils back into state education and make most schools harder to get into. More pupils will be displaced and there would be more travel.
This sets aside the vast cost to the state. If 30% of private school pupils relocated to state schools, it would be a financial disaster. Also I don't see more state schools being built - it's an ill thought out strategy based purely on politics.Will universities charge VAT? Or just private schools? How might that work?
AstonZagato said:
A couple of considerations (for the record, I was privately educated, as were my three children):
Not anymore for oxbridge. They are bending over backwards to find intelligent kids from the rough areas to fill their quotas. - If your child is Oxbridge material, the entry requirements are very heavily stacked against them. A lot of parents will put their kids in state six form colleges so that they tick the "state school entry" box. No other university is really called out on state vs private entry, so the pressure is less elsewhere. US Ivy League colleges have no qualms - but they are expensive unless you can win a sporting scholarship (a lot of the Eton/St Pauls/Radley first VIII crews seemingly now go to US colleges).
- When you consider the cost, would you be better off just, say, buying a property for you child? 12 years of £25k+ pays a chunky mortgage, particularly if you rent it out until they graduate university. They might not have quite the education but they go have a mortgage free property to give them security.
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