Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
cheesejunkie said:
Some thick as mashed potatoes ugly motherf
kers get born into rich families and do better. That’s life. But defending a rigged system is a choice you make
It’s just not fair. kers get born into rich families and do better. That’s life. But defending a rigged system is a choice you makeWould you send your own children to a ghetto comp just because of catchment area? How strong are these principles?
cheesejunkie said:
How can they? By having to participate in it. I’m very confident education would improve if there was no bypass option for the wealthier. It’s not even a theoretical viewpoint, it’s one with evidence in other countries.
What will make state education improve in those conditions? NomduJour said:
It’s just not fair.
Would you send your own children to a ghetto comp just because of catchment area? How strong are these principles?
Entirely flexible and I’ve not denied that. But I won’t defend a two tier education as if I’m some saint for sparing the poorly funded the cost of dealing with me.Would you send your own children to a ghetto comp just because of catchment area? How strong are these principles?
One thing overlooked here is the impact on many children being pulled from their schools because Starmer says so. My daughter's prep school closed last year and the upheaval and upset from that for the children, the parents, the teachers, the cleaners, the kitchen staff was awful. Labour forcing this on people is very sad and people should remember the human impact too.
Private school closures and removals will drive up numbers in the state sector. What else will be lost? Well childcare will become necessary because state schools do half days rather than full ones. Limited to no after school activities. Little if any sport not to mention the strikes and indoctrination of certain teacher types school trips, skiing etc etc. The list and impacts go on well beyond the schools.
Private school closures and removals will drive up numbers in the state sector. What else will be lost? Well childcare will become necessary because state schools do half days rather than full ones. Limited to no after school activities. Little if any sport not to mention the strikes and indoctrination of certain teacher types school trips, skiing etc etc. The list and impacts go on well beyond the schools.
cheesejunkie said:
NomduJour said:
It’s just not fair.
Would you send your own children to a ghetto comp just because of catchment area? How strong are these principles?
Entirely flexible and I’ve not denied that. But I won’t defend a two tier education as if I’m some saint for sparing the poorly funded the cost of dealing with me.Would you send your own children to a ghetto comp just because of catchment area? How strong are these principles?
The extra VAT is a rubbish policy born of envy, though, rather than fiscal or societal benefit. So I don't blame people for countering it with equally emotional and specious arguments. It's just that those arguments aren't very good.
It won't end here. Question - do we pay VAT on private medical services? No.
I'm sure that will be next. Slightly different effect though, as that will drive up health insurance costs rather than direct costs, i suspect. I'm actually surprised Labour haven't come up with that wheeze, to drive practitioners back to the NHS and out of private work, and to fund the NHS.
u-boat said:
cheesejunkie said:
How can they? By having to participate in it. I’m very confident education would improve if there was no bypass option for the wealthier. It’s not even a theoretical viewpoint, it’s one with evidence in other countries.
So the current and past state school parents haven’t been able to improve the system but you need the private school parents to be able to make the changes? Are the private school parents somehow more capable and able to help change the system than state school parents?
Or is it that their money would somehow go from school fees into the state schools directly?
Would we directly pay the schools to have disruptive kids removed or for extra teachers or something?
Isn’t that what we’re doing already?
Seems a bit unfair to be suggesting that it’s state school parents fault for not being good enough to improve states schools but if private school parents helped out the parents would be able to make changes?
Isn’t this the responsibility of the schools and the government? If the parents are at fault then that’s about educating them and telling them to raise their game a bit. Not expecting wealthy parents to arrive from the private sector to somehow do that in some way.
it is naive at best to think that banning / making more expensive the private education option is going to transform the state system.
there is clear evidence that state schooling can be superb - I have had involvement with an organisation that runs a number of schools (all sectors and types and ages) - they have demonstrated time and time again that good education has the same principles regardless of type of school:
- discipline
- respect (for pupils and staff)
- focus
- goal setting
- good teaching
- encouraging each child (rather than seeing them as cannon fodder)
- sense of belonging and pride
- identity
- direction
- engaged parents
etc. etc.
they have demonstrated this in the private sector (day and boarding) and in state, in primary schools and secondary, in academies and stand-alone, put in a good team of leadership backed by good governance with core principles and it is remarkable what you can do - most children come into the world wanting to learn, the education system knocks that out of them, so if you can manage to not do that but encourage them then children will be far more likely to thrive...
However, that requires those running the school to do so well, but in so many places we have issues:
- bad leadership
- focus on the wrong things (virtue-signalling v. getting on and delivering)
- lack of governance
- union interference
- poor teaching
- lack of discipline
- etc.
but those are not givens - the state system continually demonstrates that it does not have to be that way... there is enough money (more would be useful) but there are enough schools showing that it can be done within their budgets, so what is holding it back? And the answer is not that a bunch of parents have taken their children off to a private school.
where state education is at its best it can outshine private education - I have lots of friends who could afford to send their children to a private school but chose state education because it was superb and local, and others who have chosen private education reluctantly because the state provision was so poor. Get state provision right and the parents will flock to it - there will always be a few parents who send children privately because they want them to be part of a 'club' and to associate with other children who can invite them skiing to Daddy's chalet etc. but that is a tiny percentage of the private sector - get state schools better and it will bring back a large % of parents / children without needing to penalise them elsewhere to do that...
but it is too hard for government to actually tackle the problem correctly - to work out how to get good leadership and governance into schools / to give them freedom to educate well / to prioritise the right values and approaches etc. - much easier to penalise an irrelevant group of people and to pretend that will do the same...
those who then leave the private sector - how are they going to transform the state sector? They will make no difference at all - the good parts of the state sector (where they will go) are already superb - the broken parts will remain broken, a bunch of parents don't have the ability to fix what is broken there...
u-boat said:
cheesejunkie said:
How can they? By having to participate in it. I’m very confident education would improve if there was no bypass option for the wealthier. It’s not even a theoretical viewpoint, it’s one with evidence in other countries.
So the current and past state school parents haven’t been able to improve the system but you need the private school parents to be able to make the changes? Are the private school parents somehow more capable and able to help change the system than state school parents?
Or is it that their money would somehow go from school fees into the state schools directly?
Would we directly pay the schools to have disruptive kids removed or for extra teachers or something?
Isn’t that what we’re doing already?
Seems a bit unfair to be suggesting that it’s state school parents fault for not being good enough to improve states schools but if private school parents helped out the parents would be able to make changes?
Isn’t this the responsibility of the schools and the government? If the parents are at fault then that’s about educating them and telling them to raise their game a bit. Not expecting wealthy parents to arrive from the private sector to somehow do that in some way.
Edited by u-boat on Wednesday 20th March 08:10
You do you and tell people to raise their game. I doubt many would be more successful given the same starting chances. As I’ll repeat ad infinitum (I’ve done Latin and didn’t like it) you play the cards you’re dealt and that’s not the problem, supporting discrimination by parental wealth is. It’s perfectly understandable why some would seek to preserve that, their kids are idiots. I’m joking for f
k’s sake but only because if I get too serious some will get very indignant and suggest banning me rather than dealing with dissent.The parents are not at fault, on that we can agree. It’s not the responsibility of the government to rear our young but it is the responsibility of government to provide the opportunities to do so. But it’s also the responsibility of the electorate. Which means it is the parents if you go full circle.
cheesejunkie said:
Fairness is nebulous and down to your personal perceptions of it but it’s not a complicated thing to understand. It’s innate in all of us and is one of the human traits that has been found to be common across all societies including hunter gathers who have not been tainted by modern society.
Some thick as mashed potatoes ugly motherfkers get born into rich families and do better. That’s life. But defending a rigged system is a choice you make.
Some thick as mashed potatoes ugly motherfSome thick as mashed potatoes ugly motherf
kers get born into rich families and do better. That’s life. But defending a rigged system is a choice you make.kers get born good at sports or born into families with role models and parents that support them and work with them at home and they do better. If you take that disempowering victim view, the world’s “rigged” but we live it a country where you can still prosper regardless of the situation you’re born into (genetics health intelligence looks wealth of parents) artificially deciding one advantage should be removed (being able to or deciding to use a fee paying school) on bases of class war politics isn’t helping anyone.
Are you up for banning parents unfairly helping their kids by paying for private tuition or parents reading with their children or helping them with their homework? None of that is fair, as not all kids have that unfair advantage either.
The answer is to help the disadvantaged with actually positive improvements, not just arbitrarily disadvantage others in ways that won’t help the disadvantaged.
You still haven’t explained why private school parents joining the state school will be the saviour of the state system (even if hardly any leave as you predict) and why current state school parents have been unwilling or unable to improve the state school system without them?
Edited by u-boat on Wednesday 20th March 09:31
The other interesting point which hasn't been discussed...
education doesn't attract VAT because the general concept of education is that it is beneficial and we wish to encourage it as a nation. This covers lot of types of education... and of course covers a lot of sport...
so when the first parent sues the government for discrimination in putting VAT onto private school fees, how will that impact other forms of education / sport?
If a golf club membership is VAT exempt (c.f. decision of the CJEU in Bridport and West Dorset Golf Club) then why would you charge VAT on schooling?
sports that are exempt include:
- golf
- polo
- yachting
- real tennis
- field sports
lots of nice social jealousy angles to aim for there
so will we see as a consequence that all golf club memberships will have to attract VAT - now that really would upset middle England
private tuition is vat exempt - will all private tutors now need to charge VAT - and if not, what is to stop a school (whose costs tend to be 80%+ on staffing fees) acting as a facilitator and venue for parents to contract staff directly for private tutoring? A simple website would let it work - as a parent you pay the teacher's directly for the lessons they teach your child - there is a management fee charged by the school to the teachers (now private tutors) to pay for the buildings / overhead of staff management etc. - instantly should be able to remove 50-75% of the fee cost from VAT...
The whole thing is going to be a mess!
education doesn't attract VAT because the general concept of education is that it is beneficial and we wish to encourage it as a nation. This covers lot of types of education... and of course covers a lot of sport...
so when the first parent sues the government for discrimination in putting VAT onto private school fees, how will that impact other forms of education / sport?
If a golf club membership is VAT exempt (c.f. decision of the CJEU in Bridport and West Dorset Golf Club) then why would you charge VAT on schooling?
sports that are exempt include:
- golf
- polo
- yachting
- real tennis
- field sports
lots of nice social jealousy angles to aim for there
so will we see as a consequence that all golf club memberships will have to attract VAT - now that really would upset middle England
private tuition is vat exempt - will all private tutors now need to charge VAT - and if not, what is to stop a school (whose costs tend to be 80%+ on staffing fees) acting as a facilitator and venue for parents to contract staff directly for private tutoring? A simple website would let it work - as a parent you pay the teacher's directly for the lessons they teach your child - there is a management fee charged by the school to the teachers (now private tutors) to pay for the buildings / overhead of staff management etc. - instantly should be able to remove 50-75% of the fee cost from VAT...
The whole thing is going to be a mess!
said:
I was born good at sports and handsome even if I do say so myself. The hair went eventually. I was also top of the school in any subject I had an interest in. It still never stopped me recognising that for all those advantages having rich parents would have made life easier.
I had loving parents (they’re still alive) who looked after me and my siblings. I’m an observant a
hole, not a victim.I’m not up for bans, although I would ban straw man arguments given half a chance. Don’t worry, I won’t be given that chance and you can relax.
20% on private school fees is not disadvantaging anyone. Listening to those moaning about it is disadvantaging my hearing, but I’ll listen and empathise. Not entirely as I think f
k them but I’ll listen as they’re very vocal. As already stated removing other benefits would never get the air time this subject has managed to achieve. If some of them were as vocal about other stuff I might care more.cheesejunkie said:
I was born good at sports and handsome even if I do say so myself. The hair went eventually. I was also top of the school in any subject I had an interest in. It still never stopped me recognising that for all those advantages having rich parents would have made life easier.
I had loving parents (they’re still alive) who looked after me and my siblings. I’m an observant ahole, not a victim.
Right so you were unfairly advantaged through genetics? Being born sporty, intelligent, good looking and also having supporting parents.I had loving parents (they’re still alive) who looked after me and my siblings. I’m an observant a
hole, not a victim.How’s it fair that you have that incredible set of unfair advantages and privilege and others less fortunate don’t?
You were born with the golden ticket how could you not succeed in life?
On top of that all these (unfair) inherited advantages, plus your loving parents have helped make you also financially successful.
Despite all this unfair and undeserved advantage and being born so lucky you’re STILL complaining your parents couldn’t give you more advantages by also being rich?
You’re also still resentful of people who went to private school or who were born into families that were better off financially.
Sounds a lot like your issues are political and are incubated from your own still limiting outlook and mindset, than being based on any actual concepts of fairness.
Edited by u-boat on Wednesday 20th March 10:16
cheesejunkie said:
Tory boy made a better point than that. Sorry I mean GT3, and I enjoy his posts as someone who comes from a world that I don’t relate to. There’s nothing wrong with being biased towards your own. There’s plenty wrong with claiming notions of altruism when you’re not being very altruistic.
Anybody who tells you that they are spending £10k+ a year per child to save resources for the poor kids or to fund scholarships and not because it's better for their own children is pulling your leg, but it does have the unintended but desirable effect of removing demand from the state system without affecting the resources.In any case, I this policy is unlikely to become law and will cause Labour no end of headaches, during the election and after.
Just for clarification what is the difference between pay in the state and private school sectors?
The reason I ask, is having been exposed to both the difference in application, approach and professionalism is stark, and I wonder whether teachers from the private sector who become jobless will move to the state system, or simply change career, resulting in the UK education system losing some of the best teaching talent.
The reason I ask, is having been exposed to both the difference in application, approach and professionalism is stark, and I wonder whether teachers from the private sector who become jobless will move to the state system, or simply change career, resulting in the UK education system losing some of the best teaching talent.
u-boat said:
Right so you were unfairly advantaged through genetics? Being born sporty, intelligent, good looking and also having supporting parents.
How’s it fair that you have that incredible set of unfair advantages and privilege and others less fortunate don’t?
You were born with the golden ticket how could you not succeed in life?
On top of that all these (unfair) inherited advantages, plus your loving parents have helped make you also financially successful.
Despite all this unfair and undeserved advantage and being born so lucky you’re STILL complaining your parents couldn’t give you more advantages by also being rich?
You’re also still resentful of people who went to private school or who were born into families that were better off financially.
Sounds a lot like your issues are political and are incubated from your own still limiting outlook and mindset, than being based on any actual concepts of fairness.
Think you’ve nailed it with that last sentence.How’s it fair that you have that incredible set of unfair advantages and privilege and others less fortunate don’t?
You were born with the golden ticket how could you not succeed in life?
On top of that all these (unfair) inherited advantages, plus your loving parents have helped make you also financially successful.
Despite all this unfair and undeserved advantage and being born so lucky you’re STILL complaining your parents couldn’t give you more advantages by also being rich?
You’re also still resentful of people who went to private school or who were born into families that were better off financially.
Sounds a lot like your issues are political and are incubated from your own still limiting outlook and mindset, than being based on any actual concepts of fairness.
Edited by u-boat on Wednesday 20th March 10:16
The guy needs a few fish for his chips. Idealistic claptrap spouted by someone with no personal consequences over the outcome, ill thought through scenarios that are based purely on conjecture and zero facts. Not one fact has been provided as to how ‘other’ countries have created this supposed educational nirvana. I’m all ears, I’d vote for not spending £50k a year on school fees if I could get the same outcome for free.
u-boat said:
Right so you were unfairly advantaged through genetics? Being born sporty, intelligent, good looking and also having supporting parents.
How’s it fair that you have that incredible set of unfair advantages and privilege and others less fortunate don’t?
You were born with the golden ticket how could you not succeed in life?
On top of that all these (unfair) inherited advantages, plus your loving parents have helped make you also financially successful.
Despite all this unfair and undeserved advantage and being born so lucky you’re STILL complaining your parents couldn’t give you more advantages by also being rich?
You’re also still resentful of people who went to private school or who were born into families that were better off financially.
Sounds a lot like your issues are political and are incubated from your own still limiting outlook and mindset, than being based on any actual concepts of fairness.
I enjoy taking the piss out of my father. I don't complain about the upbringing he gave me. Other than when I got big enough to not feel the belt. My backside is no stranger to a whipping, never worked. But he was raised by the CBS so thinks child abuse is normal. I'm joking, his mother threatened the brothers with his father and you would not mess with my Grandad. Well you can now, he's dead. But not when he was alive, he was the shoot first worry about it later type (literally, he shot people and for some reason was given medals for mass murder).How’s it fair that you have that incredible set of unfair advantages and privilege and others less fortunate don’t?
You were born with the golden ticket how could you not succeed in life?
On top of that all these (unfair) inherited advantages, plus your loving parents have helped make you also financially successful.
Despite all this unfair and undeserved advantage and being born so lucky you’re STILL complaining your parents couldn’t give you more advantages by also being rich?
You’re also still resentful of people who went to private school or who were born into families that were better off financially.
Sounds a lot like your issues are political and are incubated from your own still limiting outlook and mindset, than being based on any actual concepts of fairness.
Edited by u-boat on Wednesday 20th March 10:16
Why am I even talking about this?
Because I know that many of the best people in the world are not the public school type but they're not all a
holes. The self aware ones are alright by me. You take advantages where you can. You don't criticise others for not having them. I'm not resentful, I'm critical. It's a small but important difference. My limited outlook thinks you're full of s
t for suggesting I have issues, but you're entitled to that view and I would not remove your entitlement. I strongly think you'd remove my entitlement to my view if you could.Now, which bit of the above was bulls
t?beagrizzly said:
Tom8 said:
My daughter's prep school closed last year
Just out of interest, what caused that?gareth h said:
Just for clarification what is the difference between pay in the state and private school sectors?
The reason I ask, is having been exposed to both the difference in application, approach and professionalism is stark, and I wonder whether teachers from the private sector who become jobless will move to the state system, or simply change career, resulting in the UK education system losing some of the best teaching talent.
There is a premium usually. Don't know for definite but a few grand. There is the professional benefit of teaching smaller classes, better behaved and motivated kids with motivated parents. In boarding schools there are accommodation benefits too.The reason I ask, is having been exposed to both the difference in application, approach and professionalism is stark, and I wonder whether teachers from the private sector who become jobless will move to the state system, or simply change career, resulting in the UK education system losing some of the best teaching talent.
Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff