Family Court without a Solicitor - Anyone done it?
Discussion
MYOB said:
Is being a litigant in person really as bad as you suggest? It's my understanding that judges don't expect such people to know the law, hence having legal advisors present in court.
The solicitors I have seen to date have all suggested there is no point/benefit adding a five figure sum to pay for their services and that their presence does not necessarily alter the outcome.
This is Family Court, not exactly criminal proceedings. Yes the stakes are high but are you not scare mongering just a little?
Only lay judges have legal advisers (Magistrates, for example). A family court will typically be overseen by a district judge (a former legal professional or a highly specialist lay judge).The solicitors I have seen to date have all suggested there is no point/benefit adding a five figure sum to pay for their services and that their presence does not necessarily alter the outcome.
This is Family Court, not exactly criminal proceedings. Yes the stakes are high but are you not scare mongering just a little?
The family court is where judges have the most scrutiny as it usually involves children, so I am not scaremongering in the slightest, just saying it as it actually is.
If there in an uncontested claim then there is usually no need to pay for legal representation. Sometimes though this does help (if the judge needs pointing to a particular statute or precedent - this happens).
It is an unlikely event in general family law, however, if nothing is contested. But for anything contested it is often worth while paying for someone with the relevant knowledge.
My experience has been that solicitors have allowed the other side to progress further than should have been possible simply because they had no real knowledge of the law.
It is their clients who pay for this. I don't like that.
Every case is, of course, different and determined on its own merit.
Thanks Julian, some very useful comments. I've just realised that my ex will probably qualify for legal aid. I could probably stretch myself to 5k legal bill, but 20k isn't happening. I'm not totally sure on the sequence that I need to follow - I think I have to try and get the Prohibited Steps order first, to stop her moving away. But is that only temporary(?), until we get a child arrangements order in place? I'd be happy if the court formalised our existing arrangement (I have the kids 7 days in every 14). But that wouldn't be workable if the ex relocates 250+ miles away, which I'm guessing they can't prevent permanently? So is my only hope to fight her for primary care of the kids?
The other thing is that I know full well my ex will go absolutely loopy if I go legal on her. I've no doubt she'll be trying to stop the kids spending time with me. In fact she's probably a flight risk - I could see her filling her car with stuff and just driving off with the kids, to crash at random friends houses. She has form for this. But I'm not sure that's enough to try for an Emergency prohibited steps order?
Mikey, how do you think your ex will react to you taking it to court? Is she likely to stay rational, she's already weaponised the kids by the sound of it.
Don't rely on on grassing your ex up in court regarding her finances. It'll almost certainly get you nowhere, and just make you look bad for raising it! I've got a friend who went through a very difficult and protracted divorce (she left him, went into hiding with the kids, and then did everything she could to draw out the divorce even though she filed for it). His ex lied about her assets to get legal aid, he had definitive proof, she then had to lie on her financial declaration to cover this up. By the sound of it her entire financial disclosure was a joke and a lie. My friend pulled it apart, but in the end his legal team would not raise any of that in court, because they knew it would just look like sour grapes, and wouldn't help him.
The other thing is that I know full well my ex will go absolutely loopy if I go legal on her. I've no doubt she'll be trying to stop the kids spending time with me. In fact she's probably a flight risk - I could see her filling her car with stuff and just driving off with the kids, to crash at random friends houses. She has form for this. But I'm not sure that's enough to try for an Emergency prohibited steps order?
Mikey, how do you think your ex will react to you taking it to court? Is she likely to stay rational, she's already weaponised the kids by the sound of it.
Mikeyplum said:
Well, I've got my first mediation appointment next Thursday. So I guess I'll know a little more about the next steps by then.
Did you go through with the mediation last year, did that achieve anything?MikeDrop said:
I contacted the CSA on the phone and the helpful chap stated it would be considered shared access which is a null claim. Worth giving them a call as there's not an awful lot of info immediately available online.
It's a tricky situation you're in. Thankfully, I don't have to worry about the threat of getting back together, we both know that's not at all what we want. However, she is one for using the kids as leverage to get me to give in to her requests. So want that to stop with a court order.
She's still fully convinced that she's in the right and has even said I'll be far worse off financially if I take her to court. She's forgetting the her new fella is working whilst claiming sick pay and she hasn't declared him living with her whilst claiming Housing Benefit
Wonder how the court will see that?
I'm not physically paying money to my ex for maintenance at present. She's so hopeless with her finances that I doubt it'd every get spent properly on the kids. So I organise and pay for her car insurance, buy clothes and shoes for the kids etc.It's a tricky situation you're in. Thankfully, I don't have to worry about the threat of getting back together, we both know that's not at all what we want. However, she is one for using the kids as leverage to get me to give in to her requests. So want that to stop with a court order.
She's still fully convinced that she's in the right and has even said I'll be far worse off financially if I take her to court. She's forgetting the her new fella is working whilst claiming sick pay and she hasn't declared him living with her whilst claiming Housing Benefit
Wonder how the court will see that?Don't rely on on grassing your ex up in court regarding her finances. It'll almost certainly get you nowhere, and just make you look bad for raising it! I've got a friend who went through a very difficult and protracted divorce (she left him, went into hiding with the kids, and then did everything she could to draw out the divorce even though she filed for it). His ex lied about her assets to get legal aid, he had definitive proof, she then had to lie on her financial declaration to cover this up. By the sound of it her entire financial disclosure was a joke and a lie. My friend pulled it apart, but in the end his legal team would not raise any of that in court, because they knew it would just look like sour grapes, and wouldn't help him.
JulianPH said:
Useful stuff
Julian - thanks for this info. Very insightful. I don't think it's going to sway my momentum of thought of taking her to court. All manner of reasoning and communications are futile, unfortunately. Quick one though, do text messages hold any weight in cases? I've asked her outright on text to attend mediation and if she has any safeguarding concerns when the children are in my car, both of which she answered no to. Will that go in my favour?mjb1 said:
Mikey, how do you think your ex will react to you taking it to court? Is she likely to stay rational, she's already weaponised the kids by the sound of it.
She goes mental at the smallest sign that I'm not dancing to the rhythm of her beat, so probably, yeah 
. But I'm used to it now, I know how to deal with her tantrums so will just let her crack on. I'll save the text messages in case I need to use them.mjb1 said:
Mikeyplum said:
Well, I've got my first mediation appointment next Thursday. So I guess I'll know a little more about the next steps by then.
Did you go through with the mediation last year, did that achieve anything?One thing I don't understand though - do I have to call the court to make payment before I send the application? Or at the same time? Or after? Nothing I can find clarifies when I should make payment.
You have your MIAM exemption nnow. This shows the court that you have fulfilled your duties to enter into mediation before the court will consider your case. The text relating to her not being willing to attend mediation is useful, but no longer remains that relevant.
Her negative response regarding any safeguarding concerns is very valuable and would certainly go in your favour should she later change her mind over this. Be aware though that the more time that passes between this text being sent and the final hearing, the greater the opportunity for her to 'develop' concerns she did not have before.
I would still strongly advise against a contested hearing. Could you not just agree with your ex that the structured pattern the children are used to is best maintained and formalised?
You could then have a solicitor or barrister draw up a Child Arrangement Order (by Consent) stating:
UPON BOTH PARENTS AGREEING
(i) not to make derogatory remarks about each other to or in the hearing of the children
(ii) to not act in any way that could frustrate the ease of access between the children and each parent as it currently stands
REASONS FOR THE HEARING
ISSUES AGREED BETWEEN THE PARTIES
This is very simplified, but pretty much covers everything you need and is difficult for her to contest. You could have it drawn up by a solicitor or barrister and have them lodge it with the court. Everyone tuns up on the day and the judge is guaranteed to praise both parents for their handling of the matter.
I would strongly suggest you consider this approach rather than a contested hearing (if you consider your ex would be open to this).
Edited twice for typos, again!
Her negative response regarding any safeguarding concerns is very valuable and would certainly go in your favour should she later change her mind over this. Be aware though that the more time that passes between this text being sent and the final hearing, the greater the opportunity for her to 'develop' concerns she did not have before.
I would still strongly advise against a contested hearing. Could you not just agree with your ex that the structured pattern the children are used to is best maintained and formalised?
You could then have a solicitor or barrister draw up a Child Arrangement Order (by Consent) stating:
UPON BOTH PARENTS AGREEING
(i) not to make derogatory remarks about each other to or in the hearing of the children
(ii) to not act in any way that could frustrate the ease of access between the children and each parent as it currently stands
REASONS FOR THE HEARING
- This hearing has been listed for a non-contested final hearing
ISSUES AGREED BETWEEN THE PARTIES
- The children will continue with the established routine of living equally between both parents with an equal division of time spent between each parent and this is not challenged
- The children will have an equal division of school holidays between each parent
- The parents retain equal and joint parental responsibility for the children
- The parents will provide the children and the other parent with at least three months notice of the division of school holidays (six months for the summer holiday) to ensure each parent has the oppurtunity to plan school holiday arrangements in advance and that such arrangements once agreed between between the parents cannot later be amended without the consent and agreement of both parents
- Should either parent act in any way that frustrates the ease of access currently enjoyed between the children and the other parent then that parent is responsible for remedying their actions so no additional burden is placed upon the other parent
- Birthdays and Christmases will rotate each year between each parent
- There are no outstanding issues in dispute between the parties
This is very simplified, but pretty much covers everything you need and is difficult for her to contest. You could have it drawn up by a solicitor or barrister and have them lodge it with the court. Everyone tuns up on the day and the judge is guaranteed to praise both parents for their handling of the matter.
I would strongly suggest you consider this approach rather than a contested hearing (if you consider your ex would be open to this).
Edited twice for typos, again!
Edited by JulianPH on Wednesday 17th January 16:34
Julian is spot on with his advice, I had to be a litigant in person on occasions during my divorce.
My initial belief was that the court would be understanding of such, the fact is most Judges hate dealing with the great unwashed, they do not even want to make eye contact with you, never mind talk to you and nanny you through the minefield that is family law.
The other side if legally represented will draw you into traps that under a common sense situation would not be traps at all, so you wont even realise what they are upto until after the event.
The mandatory mediation thing has come in since my case, but I was advised if I did not attend it would go heavily against me, so I went, however the ex refused to then attend anyway, when this was brought up in court, the judges reply was "she didn't have to go if she didn't want to"....which sums up the whole bias towards mothers/women. As a man you are on the backfoot all the way in the family courts. They say one thing, no evidence to support, its taken as being true, however you back up your case to the hilt with evidence, the judge does not even read it!
Its truly luck of the draw with who you have as a judge on the day, I saw 6 in total during the process, 2 were on the ball, good people, 1 just wanted to talk about his great pension, 2 did not clearly give a toss and just treated it as a ticking a box exercise, and the last one was an old school white knight who thought we were still in Victorian times. All were men.
I later had 5 days in court on a matter being dealt with by their boss on a far greater issue related to my two daughters, a very formidable lady that all the barristers were terrified of. Oh boy did she see through all the exes bulls
t and get right to the point, it was a pleasure to witness. She even praised me in her summing up for everything I had done which apparently was unheard of, but not a word of such to the ex!
My advice like Julians is avoid courts at all cost, you will not come out of it smiling however just your cause.
My initial belief was that the court would be understanding of such, the fact is most Judges hate dealing with the great unwashed, they do not even want to make eye contact with you, never mind talk to you and nanny you through the minefield that is family law.
The other side if legally represented will draw you into traps that under a common sense situation would not be traps at all, so you wont even realise what they are upto until after the event.
The mandatory mediation thing has come in since my case, but I was advised if I did not attend it would go heavily against me, so I went, however the ex refused to then attend anyway, when this was brought up in court, the judges reply was "she didn't have to go if she didn't want to"....which sums up the whole bias towards mothers/women. As a man you are on the backfoot all the way in the family courts. They say one thing, no evidence to support, its taken as being true, however you back up your case to the hilt with evidence, the judge does not even read it!
Its truly luck of the draw with who you have as a judge on the day, I saw 6 in total during the process, 2 were on the ball, good people, 1 just wanted to talk about his great pension, 2 did not clearly give a toss and just treated it as a ticking a box exercise, and the last one was an old school white knight who thought we were still in Victorian times. All were men.
I later had 5 days in court on a matter being dealt with by their boss on a far greater issue related to my two daughters, a very formidable lady that all the barristers were terrified of. Oh boy did she see through all the exes bulls
t and get right to the point, it was a pleasure to witness. She even praised me in her summing up for everything I had done which apparently was unheard of, but not a word of such to the ex!My advice like Julians is avoid courts at all cost, you will not come out of it smiling however just your cause.
Edited by PAUL500 on Thursday 18th January 00:02
MikeDrop said:
She's still fully convinced that she's in the right and has even said I'll be far worse off financially if I take her to court. She's forgetting the her new fella is working whilst claiming sick pay and she hasn't declared him living with her whilst claiming Housing Benefit Wonder how the court will see that?
If you have any sense at all they won't have to see it one way t'other because you won't say anything about it. Wonder how the court will see that?MikeDrop said:
I've called the CSA and they have re-assured me they will not get involved in forcing me to pay anything without a court order. So that's a relief. More interestingly, the helpful chap at the CSA advised me that if I have them 7 nights in every 14, this is essentially shared care and would be treated as a null claim. Meaning I shouldn't actually have paying anything. Which is slightly besides the point as I'm happy to contribute.
This is fine when both parents are in agreement. When there is a disagreement, and one parent is claiming against the other citing 2-3 days a week, and you're explaining that she's deviating from a previously established 50/50 routine, they won't want to know. I explained that I could prove the kids had been with me at least 50% of the time as I had kept accurate records, but the past arrangement was deemed irrelevant once the ex had whimsically and unilaterally decided that I would see them less and thus stated 2-3 nights to the CMS, effective from that point onward.I started the legal ball rolling, with representation. Fortunately in my case the weak ex crumbled before it got to the first hearing - she was terrified of the potential costs involved. The process did seem like a minefield though and I personally wouldn't attempt to go there again without representation.
JulianPH said:
You have your MIAM exemption nnow. This shows the court that you have fulfilled your duties to enter into mediation before the court will consider your case. The text relating to her not being willing to attend mediation is useful, but no longer remains that relevant.
Her negative response regarding any safeguarding concerns is very valuable and would certainly go in your favour should she later change her mind over this. Be aware though that the more time that passes between this text being sent and the final hearing, the greater the opportunity for her to 'develop' concerns she did not have before.
I would still strongly advise against a contested hearing. Could you not just agree with your ex that the structured pattern the children are used to is best maintained and formalised?
You could then have a solicitor or barrister draw up a Child Arrangement Order (by Consent) stating:
UPON BOTH PARENTS AGREEING
(i) not to make derogatory remarks about each other to or in the hearing of the children
(ii) to not act in any way that could frustrate the ease of access between the children and each parent as it currently stands
REASONS FOR THE HEARING
ISSUES AGREED BETWEEN THE PARTIES
This is very simplified, but pretty much covers everything you need and is difficult for her to contest. You could have it drawn up by a solicitor or barrister and have them lodge it with the court. Everyone tuns up on the day and the judge is guaranteed to praise both parents for their handling of the matter.
I would strongly suggest you consider this approach rather than a contested hearing (if you consider your ex would be open to this).
Edited twice for typos, again!
Julian, thank you so much for your advice. I really do appreciate it. Her negative response regarding any safeguarding concerns is very valuable and would certainly go in your favour should she later change her mind over this. Be aware though that the more time that passes between this text being sent and the final hearing, the greater the opportunity for her to 'develop' concerns she did not have before.
I would still strongly advise against a contested hearing. Could you not just agree with your ex that the structured pattern the children are used to is best maintained and formalised?
You could then have a solicitor or barrister draw up a Child Arrangement Order (by Consent) stating:
UPON BOTH PARENTS AGREEING
(i) not to make derogatory remarks about each other to or in the hearing of the children
(ii) to not act in any way that could frustrate the ease of access between the children and each parent as it currently stands
REASONS FOR THE HEARING
- This hearing has been listed for a non-contested final hearing
ISSUES AGREED BETWEEN THE PARTIES
- The children will continue with the established routine of living equally between both parents with an equal division of time spent between each parent and this is not challenged
- The children will have an equal division of school holidays between each parent
- The parents retain equal and joint parental responsibility for the children
- The parents will provide the children and the other parent with at least three months notice of the division of school holidays (six months for the summer holiday) to ensure each parent has the oppurtunity to plan school holiday arrangements in advance and that such arrangements once agreed between between the parents cannot later be amended without the consent and agreement of both parents
- Should either parent act in any way that frustrates the ease of access currently enjoyed between the children and the other parent then that parent is responsible for remedying their actions so no additional burden is placed upon the other parent
- Birthdays and Christmases will rotate each year between each parent
- There are no outstanding issues in dispute between the parties
This is very simplified, but pretty much covers everything you need and is difficult for her to contest. You could have it drawn up by a solicitor or barrister and have them lodge it with the court. Everyone tuns up on the day and the judge is guaranteed to praise both parents for their handling of the matter.
I would strongly suggest you consider this approach rather than a contested hearing (if you consider your ex would be open to this).
Edited twice for typos, again!
Edited by JulianPH on Wednesday 17th January 16:34
I've highlighted the above line and, unfortunately, I've tried several times but she is not budging on the "needing more money" line so has reduced access to try and achieve this. So not sure what other options I may have.
Thanks for the comments on not bringing up her living arrangements and associated benefits claimed. I wouldn't want to shoot myself in the foot by coming across as though I have a vengeance.
MikeDrop said:
Julian, thank you so much for your advice. I really do appreciate it.
I've highlighted the above line and, unfortunately, I've tried several times but she is not budging on the "needing more money" line so has reduced access to try and achieve this. So not sure what other options I may have.
Thanks for the comments on not bringing up her living arrangements and associated benefits claimed. I wouldn't want to shoot myself in the foot by coming across as though I have a vengeance.
Child Arrangement Orders are a completely separate matter from financial arrangement (called Ancillary Relief when part of a divorce) and are never heard together at the same hearing.I've highlighted the above line and, unfortunately, I've tried several times but she is not budging on the "needing more money" line so has reduced access to try and achieve this. So not sure what other options I may have.
Thanks for the comments on not bringing up her living arrangements and associated benefits claimed. I wouldn't want to shoot myself in the foot by coming across as though I have a vengeance.
However, it will not surprise you in the slightest that this does not prevent many mothers marching down this route as they know the children are their best weapon against you in getting what she wants.
Were you married and if so you pay her maintenance (or a clean break lump sum)? Do you have a court Consent Order confirming this?
If there was no marriage and no maintenance then I assume you are only paying child support.
This is calculated in a set way, apart from in very rare cases where the person paying this has very high levels of income or assets - and even then this is not a given.
https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-child-maintenanc...
Happy to help, but I think I may have blurred the lines between different posts/issues so sorry if that is the case. I am at home with Aussie Flu, feeling wretched with a head that is not firing on all cylinders!
If you want to go over the points again in one post I will try and respond to each one. IIRC correctly the initial issue was her messing about with collecting the kids and last minute changes to agreed holiday contact. I'm I right in this has escalated into her withdrawing contact unless you meet her financial demands (and if so do you have written evidence of this)?
JulianPH said:
Child Arrangement Orders are a completely separate matter from financial arrangement (called Ancillary Relief when part of a divorce) and are never heard together at the same hearing.
However, it will not surprise you in the slightest that this does not prevent many mothers marching down this route as they know the children are their best weapon against you in getting what she wants.
Were you married and if so you pay her maintenance (or a clean break lump sum)? Do you have a court Consent Order confirming this?
If there was no marriage and no maintenance then I assume you are only paying child support.
This is calculated in a set way, apart from in very rare cases where the person paying this has very high levels of income or assets - and even then this is not a given.
https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-child-maintenanc...
Happy to help, but I think I may have blurred the lines between different posts/issues so sorry if that is the case. I am at home with Aussie Flu, feeling wretched with a head that is not firing on all cylinders!
If you want to go over the points again in one post I will try and respond to each one. IIRC correctly the initial issue was her messing about with collecting the kids and last minute changes to agreed holiday contact. I'm I right in this has escalated into her withdrawing contact unless you meet her financial demands (and if so do you have written evidence of this)?
Wow Aussie flu is no joke! I'm surprised you're able to be as helpful as you are! However, it will not surprise you in the slightest that this does not prevent many mothers marching down this route as they know the children are their best weapon against you in getting what she wants.
Were you married and if so you pay her maintenance (or a clean break lump sum)? Do you have a court Consent Order confirming this?
If there was no marriage and no maintenance then I assume you are only paying child support.
This is calculated in a set way, apart from in very rare cases where the person paying this has very high levels of income or assets - and even then this is not a given.
https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-child-maintenanc...
Happy to help, but I think I may have blurred the lines between different posts/issues so sorry if that is the case. I am at home with Aussie Flu, feeling wretched with a head that is not firing on all cylinders!
If you want to go over the points again in one post I will try and respond to each one. IIRC correctly the initial issue was her messing about with collecting the kids and last minute changes to agreed holiday contact. I'm I right in this has escalated into her withdrawing contact unless you meet her financial demands (and if so do you have written evidence of this)?
Main points are:
- Not married
- Fixed Child Support payments made monthly for over 2 years into her bank account, in accordance with the CSA guidelines (using the exact link you've provided)
- Regular schedule of who has kids and when, been in place for over 2 years.
- I have had them 7 nights in every 14 for this period. 2 regular weeknights and every other weekend, Fri night to Mon morning.
- She often reneges on verbal agreements on exceptions (i.e. Birthdays, Christmas etc.)
- Recently she's reduced my access by one week night per week so I fall into a different category in the CSA's eyes, to try and get me to pay more money.
- The decision for her to reduce my access also stems from the fact I haven't given her a new mobile phone (rolls eyes).
I hope that helps Julian. I do want to avoid court at all costs, but I really don't see any other options at the moment.
I think the best solution would be if you could push/coax her into formalising the Child Arrangement Order (by consent) approach. You just want to formalise the contact arrangements that you had previously (and presumably were demonstrably working for everyone, and in particular the kids). Is there much prospect of her backing down when she realises you're serious about court?
I don't know if it's possible to start the process on a non contested basis and then escalate it to contested if needed?
My understanding (and I could be completely wrong, but it's what I'm kind of relying on myself), is that the family court prefers to maintain the existing contact arrangements, unless there are valid reasons to change it? So the longer it goes on that she refuses that one extra day per week, the more likely the court is to formalise the current arrangements?
I generally have my kids 7 days (but 5 nights) out of 14 during term time. My ex is adamant that I'm only 'entitled' to have them every other weekend, because that's 'normal' contact for the non resident parent. She's quite vocal on social media that she can't cope with the kids, and that she's a struggling single mother where I'm absent from the parenting. So at the same time, I'm regularly receiving messages from her demanding I come and get one or more of the kids at the drop of a hat because they're doing her head in!
And she thinks moving hundreds of miles away (with the kids) is the solution. That'll realistically make their contact with me unworkable during term time (it'll be a 10 hr round trip, so 20 hrs driving which is just not practical or fair on the kids for a Fri to Sun weekend). Really not sure what she's thinking is going to happen, at best she's going to be palming the kids off to anyone and everyone that'll take them, so she can 'have a break' (get wasted), at worst she's going to be drinking heavily with them in her care (already had social services intervention for that one), or she'll have a total breakdown. Or maybe she thinks I'm going to sell up and follow her around the country so I can maintain regular contact with the kids (not going to happen)
I don't know if it's possible to start the process on a non contested basis and then escalate it to contested if needed?
My understanding (and I could be completely wrong, but it's what I'm kind of relying on myself), is that the family court prefers to maintain the existing contact arrangements, unless there are valid reasons to change it? So the longer it goes on that she refuses that one extra day per week, the more likely the court is to formalise the current arrangements?
I generally have my kids 7 days (but 5 nights) out of 14 during term time. My ex is adamant that I'm only 'entitled' to have them every other weekend, because that's 'normal' contact for the non resident parent. She's quite vocal on social media that she can't cope with the kids, and that she's a struggling single mother where I'm absent from the parenting. So at the same time, I'm regularly receiving messages from her demanding I come and get one or more of the kids at the drop of a hat because they're doing her head in!
And she thinks moving hundreds of miles away (with the kids) is the solution. That'll realistically make their contact with me unworkable during term time (it'll be a 10 hr round trip, so 20 hrs driving which is just not practical or fair on the kids for a Fri to Sun weekend). Really not sure what she's thinking is going to happen, at best she's going to be palming the kids off to anyone and everyone that'll take them, so she can 'have a break' (get wasted), at worst she's going to be drinking heavily with them in her care (already had social services intervention for that one), or she'll have a total breakdown. Or maybe she thinks I'm going to sell up and follow her around the country so I can maintain regular contact with the kids (not going to happen)
MikeDrop said:
Wow Aussie flu is no joke! I'm surprised you're able to be as helpful as you are!
Main points are:
I hope that helps Julian. I do want to avoid court at all costs, but I really don't see any other options at the moment.
I can confirm the Aussie Flu is not nice at all!Main points are:
- Not married
- Fixed Child Support payments made monthly for over 2 years into her bank account, in accordance with the CSA guidelines (using the exact link you've provided)
- Regular schedule of who has kids and when, been in place for over 2 years.
- I have had them 7 nights in every 14 for this period. 2 regular weeknights and every other weekend, Fri night to Mon morning.
- She often reneges on verbal agreements on exceptions (i.e. Birthdays, Christmas etc.)
- Recently she's reduced my access by one week night per week so I fall into a different category in the CSA's eyes, to try and get me to pay more money.
- The decision for her to reduce my access also stems from the fact I haven't given her a new mobile phone (rolls eyes).
I hope that helps Julian. I do want to avoid court at all costs, but I really don't see any other options at the moment.
- Not married - Great
- Fixed Child Support - Great
- Regular schedule in place - Great, you are right in seeking to formalise this, and as quickly as possible
- Reneges of verbal agreement - Covered by the point above
- Removing one night a week - Has she given any reason for this (ideally in writing). You will obviously be seeking this night back
- Withholding contact in order to get a new mobile phone - Has this been communicated in writing?
Could it simply be that you will agree to give her a new phone if she agrees to formalise arrangements? Or has it gone past that now?
Sometimes the simplest route is the most desired one for both parties. I sense she feels aggrieved regarding the phone and wants to be seen to have won. If you let here know court action inevitable but you are prepared to concede to her demand (so she considers she has won and you have lost) in order to reduce legal costs for both of you, then this would be a fantastic result.
Sometimes the smallest of issues is allowed to fester and blow up out of all proportion when someone feels aggrieved. If you could manage this route with her you will save yourself a fortune in legal fees (her too), have resolution within a couple of months rather than a year, and save yourself the physical and emotional stress that a contested hearing (with cross examination) brings.
Given her earlier issues it also sounds like she is cutting off her nose to spite her face by increasing the time she has to look after the kids. She may welcome this approach.
Finally, if she is after more money each month it may may more sense for you to agree with this in order to get what you want. You are going to spend the money one way or another and I understand the result is that she is getting more than she should. I know this will not 'feel' right, but if you can detach yourself emotionally, what would you consider to be the best result for you;
- You spend £5,000 (and the rest) on up to a years worth of contested court action with no guarantee of the outcome and an inevitable deterioration of contact (and increase of hostilities) as a direct (defensive) result of this.
- You spend the same amount of money, but spread over 4 years, on the agreement of a guaranteed outcome (because she thinks she has won and you have lost).
mjb1 said:
I think the best solution would be if you could push/coax her into formalising the Child Arrangement Order (by consent) approach. You just want to formalise the contact arrangements that you had previously (and presumably were demonstrably working for everyone, and in particular the kids). Is there much prospect of her backing down when she realises you're serious about court?
I don't know if it's possible to start the process on a non contested basis and then escalate it to contested if needed?
My understanding (and I could be completely wrong, but it's what I'm kind of relying on myself), is that the family court prefers to maintain the existing contact arrangements, unless there are valid reasons to change it? So the longer it goes on that she refuses that one extra day per week, the more likely the court is to formalise the current arrangements?
I generally have my kids 7 days (but 5 nights) out of 14 during term time. My ex is adamant that I'm only 'entitled' to have them every other weekend, because that's 'normal' contact for the non resident parent. She's quite vocal on social media that she can't cope with the kids, and that she's a struggling single mother where I'm absent from the parenting. So at the same time, I'm regularly receiving messages from her demanding I come and get one or more of the kids at the drop of a hat because they're doing her head in!
And she thinks moving hundreds of miles away (with the kids) is the solution. That'll realistically make their contact with me unworkable during term time (it'll be a 10 hr round trip, so 20 hrs driving which is just not practical or fair on the kids for a Fri to Sun weekend). Really not sure what she's thinking is going to happen, at best she's going to be palming the kids off to anyone and everyone that'll take them, so she can 'have a break' (get wasted), at worst she's going to be drinking heavily with them in her care (already had social services intervention for that one), or she'll have a total breakdown. Or maybe she thinks I'm going to sell up and follow her around the country so I can maintain regular contact with the kids (not going to happen)
1) That was exactly what I was trying to say aboveI don't know if it's possible to start the process on a non contested basis and then escalate it to contested if needed?
My understanding (and I could be completely wrong, but it's what I'm kind of relying on myself), is that the family court prefers to maintain the existing contact arrangements, unless there are valid reasons to change it? So the longer it goes on that she refuses that one extra day per week, the more likely the court is to formalise the current arrangements?
I generally have my kids 7 days (but 5 nights) out of 14 during term time. My ex is adamant that I'm only 'entitled' to have them every other weekend, because that's 'normal' contact for the non resident parent. She's quite vocal on social media that she can't cope with the kids, and that she's a struggling single mother where I'm absent from the parenting. So at the same time, I'm regularly receiving messages from her demanding I come and get one or more of the kids at the drop of a hat because they're doing her head in!
And she thinks moving hundreds of miles away (with the kids) is the solution. That'll realistically make their contact with me unworkable during term time (it'll be a 10 hr round trip, so 20 hrs driving which is just not practical or fair on the kids for a Fri to Sun weekend). Really not sure what she's thinking is going to happen, at best she's going to be palming the kids off to anyone and everyone that'll take them, so she can 'have a break' (get wasted), at worst she's going to be drinking heavily with them in her care (already had social services intervention for that one), or she'll have a total breakdown. Or maybe she thinks I'm going to sell up and follow her around the country so I can maintain regular contact with the kids (not going to happen)
2) It can certainly happen.
3) You are 100% correct on both points.
4) Ex's have a habit of letting you know what they consider you are entitled to! Save those messages and social media pages, they should stand you well.
5) Unless she has family and and up to date friend base there (not an historic/out of touch one) then this is likely an empty threat.
If feel for you. That you have already involved social services regarding her drinking is a very good thing. I would do so again if you want to try and become the resident parent. All the best.
MikeDrop said:
When I first took out a contract for her, I provided her with the mobile phone that came with this - A Samsung Galaxy S6 Edge. Which she duly proceeded to break into a million pieces owing to her unworldly clumsiness. I recently renewed the contract, allowing her to keep the same contract but didn't give her a phone this time. A SIM only contract if you like. I gave the new handset to my current girlfriend as she was in need of one. The ex took exception to this and has threatened to stop me seeing the kids every Thursday until I give "her phone" back to her. She's clearly stated that if I give her the phone back, she'll reinstate access. I've offered to increase the monetary payments, but she's declined.
To be clear, she's prepared to put a £300 phone ahead of her own children's welfare? She sounds lovely...
Good luck with the court proceedings - I suspect they'll be summarily ignored if they don't suit her, and the fact that you've taken court action 'against her' used to poison your children further against you. Look what evil daddy is doing to poor defenceless mummy'
Sorry.
MYOB said:
Julian
Do you work in the family courts or have you been through the process yourself?
I don't work in the family courts (or any court) at all. I studied law and wanted to become a barrister (commercial law) but an opportunity at an investment brokerage I was doing part time work in whilst studying was to good to pass up on. I still retain a great interest in law and the legal process and my wife was a full time lawyer before moving to the UK.Do you work in the family courts or have you been through the process yourself?
So when my ex decided to play the same denying contact game we both were very active with our solicitor and barristers (I sacked the first one - she was incompetent). It was very interesting to note that they all advised based upon their career experiences, rather than the law itself. Their best use was knowing their way around the court process (though much of this revolved around fawning to the Judge).
In my experience a barrister's ability to cross examine (and focus the Judge on points of law) is the only thing worth paying for. The rest of it is a process (club) that enables lawyers to extract huge amounts of cash from both parties.
However, if you don't know how the system works (and it is not a good idea to cut your teeth on your own first case - regarding your own children - you have little choice.
If I am ill enough to not be working tomorrow, but well enough to summon up sufficient cognitive process, I'll write up a Q and A list everyone should ask a family lawyer before engaging them (and rules as to how you should approach the family law arena).
My divorce and later child arrangement hearing cost me a 6 figure sum. Having gone through both these sets of hearings (and with a legal background) I know I could have achieved the same results in a shorter period of time for £10k. The system is against you though and you only realise this after the event (if you are not so stunned you don't realise it at all).
JulianPH said:
5) Unless she has family and and up to date friend base there (not an historic/out of touch one) then this is likely an empty threat.
If feel for you. That you have already involved social services regarding her drinking is a very good thing. I would do so again if you want to try and become the resident parent. All the best.
She does seem pretty serious about moving this time - enquiring after houses to rent, looking for work in the area. Place she wants to move to only has friends she's in touch with online, casually visits maybe once a year. She has a bit of family about 20 miles from there - an alcoholic father who she's constantly falling out with, and isn't safe to leave the kids in the care of (except when she needs to drink it seems), and her brother who doesn't have time for her either.If feel for you. That you have already involved social services regarding her drinking is a very good thing. I would do so again if you want to try and become the resident parent. All the best.
Last time social services got involved was at her own request a couple of months ago - she hospitalised herself (not directly through drink, but possibly a factor), told the doctors there that she wasn't coping with the kids and they suggested self referring. Then she ignored SS when they wrote to her about it! I got the same letter and phoned them myself, didn't sound like they were likely to take things any further at that stage.
Is there any mileage in doing most of the legal stuff DIY, just using a barrister for court, or am I likely to have prejudiced my case before it reaches the court?
MikeDrop said:
I recently renewed the contract, allowing her to keep the same contract but didn't give her a phone this time. A SIM only contract if you like. I gave the new handset to my current girlfriend as she was in need of one. The ex took exception to this and has threatened to stop me seeing the kids every Thursday until I give "her phone" back to her. She's clearly stated that if I give her the phone back, she'll reinstate access. I've offered to increase the monetary payments, but she's declined.
Did you actually tell her that you'd given the phone to your new missus instead lol? I'd just give the bloody thing to your ex and tell her it's the last one she's getting from you. Pick your battles carefully/loose the fight to win the war, etc. On the other hand, if you give them an inch they take a mile. Might be a new phone this month, but she'll want a new car next (there was a thread on exactly that on here recently).Useful background there Julian. So to summarise, those with no money are strongly disadvantaged?
And any litigant in person shouldn't expect any form of "support" from the courts?
I just have to do my best. I simply don't have a choice and I've probably bitten off more than I can chew given I have filed 3 applications simultaneously.
And any litigant in person shouldn't expect any form of "support" from the courts?
I just have to do my best. I simply don't have a choice and I've probably bitten off more than I can chew given I have filed 3 applications simultaneously.
JulianPH said:
I can confirm the Aussie Flu is not nice at all!
Could it simply be that you will agree to give her a new phone if she agrees to formalise arrangements? Or has it gone past that now?
Sometimes the simplest route is the most desired one for both parties. I sense she feels aggrieved regarding the phone and wants to be seen to have won. If you let here know court action inevitable but you are prepared to concede to her demand (so she considers she has won and you have lost) in order to reduce legal costs for both of you, then this would be a fantastic result.
Sometimes the smallest of issues is allowed to fester and blow up out of all proportion when someone feels aggrieved. If you could manage this route with her you will save yourself a fortune in legal fees (her too), have resolution within a couple of months rather than a year, and save yourself the physical and emotional stress that a contested hearing (with cross examination) brings.
Given her earlier issues it also sounds like she is cutting off her nose to spite her face by increasing the time she has to look after the kids. She may welcome this approach.
Finally, if she is after more money each month it may may more sense for you to agree with this in order to get what you want. You are going to spend the money one way or another and I understand the result is that she is getting more than she should. I know this will not 'feel' right, but if you can detach yourself emotionally, what would you consider to be the best result for you;
Thank you Julian - again, really really appreciate it! - Not married - Great
- Fixed Child Support - Great
- Regular schedule in place - Great, you are right in seeking to formalise this, and as quickly as possible
- Reneges of verbal agreement - Covered by the point above
- Removing one night a week - Has she given any reason for this (ideally in writing). You will obviously be seeking this night back
- Withholding contact in order to get a new mobile phone - Has this been communicated in writing?
Could it simply be that you will agree to give her a new phone if she agrees to formalise arrangements? Or has it gone past that now?
Sometimes the simplest route is the most desired one for both parties. I sense she feels aggrieved regarding the phone and wants to be seen to have won. If you let here know court action inevitable but you are prepared to concede to her demand (so she considers she has won and you have lost) in order to reduce legal costs for both of you, then this would be a fantastic result.
Sometimes the smallest of issues is allowed to fester and blow up out of all proportion when someone feels aggrieved. If you could manage this route with her you will save yourself a fortune in legal fees (her too), have resolution within a couple of months rather than a year, and save yourself the physical and emotional stress that a contested hearing (with cross examination) brings.
Given her earlier issues it also sounds like she is cutting off her nose to spite her face by increasing the time she has to look after the kids. She may welcome this approach.
Finally, if she is after more money each month it may may more sense for you to agree with this in order to get what you want. You are going to spend the money one way or another and I understand the result is that she is getting more than she should. I know this will not 'feel' right, but if you can detach yourself emotionally, what would you consider to be the best result for you;
- You spend £5,000 (and the rest) on up to a years worth of contested court action with no guarantee of the outcome and an inevitable deterioration of contact (and increase of hostilities) as a direct (defensive) result of this.
- You spend the same amount of money, but spread over 4 years, on the agreement of a guaranteed outcome (because she thinks she has won and you have lost).
To answer the below:
- Removing one night a week - Has she given any reason for this (ideally in writing). You will obviously be seeking this night back
- Withholding contact in order to get a new mobile phone - Has this been communicated in writing?
Completely agree with giving her the phone. I'd give her mine as to not make the OH suffer, my situation, not hers (although she has offered it back).
I've just got off the phone with her. It's Thursday and I'd usually have the kids. I called to speak to the kids and say about picking them up tonight. But "Oh mammy said she's going to take us to the cinema and buy us sweets with [her boyfriend's daughter]" so they obviously would want to stay there. She never takes them anywhere in the week. Just so happens she's planned an outing on the night I'm supposed to have them.
ETA - I mentioned putting this to bed as it's just over a mobile phone. I've offered her additional money (verbally), but it's clear she wants the phone back to satisfy her perverse sense of pride and one-up-manship.
My eldest (8yr old boy) has already told me she's mentioned not coming to mine on a Thursday anymore. Which has really annoyed me as now they have the expectation that they're not coming. They were genuinely sad about it, but being the amazing kids they are reassured me that "it's ok as we'll make sure we have double the fun when we do see you"
. Even if I do give her the phone, I'll want the Arrangement Order so she can't try and pull this stunt in the future whenever she throws her toys out of the pram.
Ari - that's exactly what I foresee, unfortunately.
I need a pint.
Edited by MikeDrop on Thursday 18th January 16:27
MYOB said:
Useful background there Julian. So to summarise, those with no money are strongly disadvantaged?
And any litigant in person shouldn't expect any form of "support" from the courts?
I just have to do my best. I simply don't have a choice and I've probably bitten off more than I can chew given I have filed 3 applications simultaneously.
Wish you all the best MYOB And any litigant in person shouldn't expect any form of "support" from the courts?
I just have to do my best. I simply don't have a choice and I've probably bitten off more than I can chew given I have filed 3 applications simultaneously.
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