International Men's Day - November 19th 2019
Discussion
otolith said:
Is one less of a victim because the perpetrator was the same gender?
You've got to remember that these stats tell only a very small part of the story. For example, I suspect that a reasonable amount of violent crime recorded is because two guys were fighting each other. That skews things and doesn't fit the message - not every crime will involve an innocent victim, and not every victim is entirely innocent (i.e. they may have contributed to being the subject of violent crime). b14 said:
otolith said:
Is one less of a victim because the perpetrator was the same gender?
You've got to remember that these stats tell only a very small part of the story. For example, I suspect that a reasonable amount of violent crime recorded is because two guys were fighting each other. That skews things and doesn't fit the message - not every crime will involve an innocent victim, and not every victim is entirely innocent (i.e. they may have contributed to being the subject of violent crime). Bill said:
otolith said:
Is one less of a victim because the perpetrator was the same gender?
No. But it isn't a sign the the world discriminates against men.The nature of systematic discrimination is not dependent upon the individuals who perform it, it's an aspect of the system.
b14 said:
they may have contributed to being the subject of violent crime
Try putting that opinion out there when its male on female violence and see what sort of reaction you get..Any excuse to link to some Bill Burr gold..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIOY2ezMy9A&au...
plasticpig said:
DonkeyApple said:
When you can pee standing up. Have a conversation that doesn’t require blocking a doorway. Only go to a shop for a specific item and walk out with just that item. Not have to be at home all day raising children, then frankly, every day is your day.
I assume the 19th is about having one day where we acknowledge just how piss easy life is when you’re a bloke?
Appropriate talking about pissing since it's also World Toilet DayI assume the 19th is about having one day where we acknowledge just how piss easy life is when you’re a bloke?
Hoofy said:
plasticpig said:
DonkeyApple said:
When you can pee standing up. Have a conversation that doesn’t require blocking a doorway. Only go to a shop for a specific item and walk out with just that item. Not have to be at home all day raising children, then frankly, every day is your day.
I assume the 19th is about having one day where we acknowledge just how piss easy life is when you’re a bloke?
Appropriate talking about pissing since it's also World Toilet DayI assume the 19th is about having one day where we acknowledge just how piss easy life is when you’re a bloke?
Where I work it's actually the Women's Network who are promoting men's day. That's the civil service for you. Though there's no Men's Network so I suppose it makes sense.
otolith said:
Ah, OK. Which female victims would you also like to blame?
Let's keep this civil rather than jumping to the most extreme reaction to prove a point. My point is that a lot of guys get punched because they've been acting like a dick to other men. It's in our DNA, we're hard wired to be generally violent. I'm not saying it justifies getting punched in any way - my point is that the statistics around victims of violent crime don't take into account that men are simply more likely to be a victim of it because the perpetrators of the crime are also male. I'm not destroying the argument that in some cases equality isn't just about women getting a raw deal, but I'm saying this particular set of stats is trying to set up the idea that men are hard done by in a way that is unequal overall. It's not a competition that we as men must win. We just need to appreciate that women overall have had a worse deal than us, for a long time. OK, we have a worse deal in some areas I appreciate, but overall the need to fix things is much greater in favour of women's rights given history and current position.
The polarisation of these types of issues into a "your argument is terrible because we have it worse" is corrosive to society and simply lacks basic empathy.
Edited by b14 on Tuesday 19th November 16:32
b14 said:
the need to fix things is much greater in favour of women's rights given history and current position.
Why is it a zero sum game?The problem with statements like that for me is that it asserts that we will get around to looking at mens issues when we have fixed 100% of womens issues.
Whats wrong with highlighting both and working on both in parallel?
otolith said:
Would you therefore say that discrimination against women performed or enabled by women is not discrimination?
The nature of systematic discrimination is not dependent upon the individuals who perform it, it's an aspect of the system.
No. Although I can't think of any examples outside occasional women bosses who prefer hiring men.The nature of systematic discrimination is not dependent upon the individuals who perform it, it's an aspect of the system.
How is it systematic? I guess there's the chivalric tradition that you don't hit women, but that's based on them being goods and chattels.
Bill said:
otolith said:
Would you therefore say that discrimination against women performed or enabled by women is not discrimination?
The nature of systematic discrimination is not dependent upon the individuals who perform it, it's an aspect of the system.
No. Although I can't think of any examples outside occasional women bosses who prefer hiring men.The nature of systematic discrimination is not dependent upon the individuals who perform it, it's an aspect of the system.
Bill said:
How is it systematic? I guess there's the chivalric tradition that you don't hit women, but that's based on them being goods and chattels.
It's systematic because it's baked into the expectations that society has of the behaviour of men and women. It's not something that men do to women or women do to men, it's something that everybody does to everybody.b14 said:
otolith said:
Ah, OK. Which female victims would you also like to blame?
Let's keep this civil rather than jumping to the most extreme reaction to prove a point. My point is that a lot of guys get punched because they've been acting like a dick to other men. It's in our DNA, we're hard wired to be generally violent.Actually, I'm sure that there are biological differences in aggression and dominance, but there are also massive effects of socialisation. There is an awful lot of violence which goes on because men have been taught that this is how a man ought to be. And from the same socialisation there is also an inhibition of violence against women. Most men would say that it's more wrong to punch a woman than a man, even if the man is smaller than the woman.
b14 said:
I'm not saying it justifies getting punched in any way - my point is that the statistics around victims of violent crime don't take into account that men are simply more likely to be a victim of it because the perpetrators of the crime are also male.
I'm sure that some punch-ups caused by two men picking a fight with each other wind up with one of them getting his actions on the crime statistics, but I don't think that is sufficient to explain the disparity in victimhood. It's basically the disposability of men. We value male lives and wellbeing less.b14 said:
I'm not destroying the argument that in some cases equality isn't just about women getting a raw deal, but I'm saying this particular set of stats is trying to set up the idea that men are hard done by in a way that is unequal overall. It's not a competition that we as men must win. We just need to appreciate that women overall have had a worse deal than us, for a long time. OK, we have a worse deal in some areas I appreciate, but overall the need to fix things is much greater in favour of women's rights given history and current position.
The polarisation of these types of issues into a "your argument is terrible because we have it worse" is corrosive to society and simply lacks basic empathy.
I don't read it that way. I don't read "society treats men worse than women in these respects and we should do something about it" as "men have it worse than women". I do read it as "The way that we treat people according to their gender hurts men too".The polarisation of these types of issues into a "your argument is terrible because we have it worse" is corrosive to society and simply lacks basic empathy.
I don't have much time for the idea of trickle down equality, whereby the ways in which men are disadvantaged will be magically fixed once we've sorted out all the ways that women are disadvantaged.
otolith said:
Women are massively involved in the maintenance and policing of women's adherence to gender roles.
What's that got to do with the vast majority of violent crime being men on men?otolith said:
It's systematic because it's baked into the expectations that society has of the behaviour of men and women. It's not something that men do to women or women do to men, it's something that everybody does to everybody.
You clearly feel strongly about this, whereas I'm a bit more flippant but surely any societal issue with men being violent is due to the historical patriarchy? Men were in control with the strongest at the top and women were meek (well, mostly). This is changing, with gang violence involving more women particularly. But that's equality for you. 
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