Private schools, times a changing?

[Benny Saltstein]

With the very likely Labour win in July I foresee legal challenges as the policy proposals unravel over the changes to the definition of those eligible institutions which currently receive the exemption from VAT.

How will the policy determine the difference between establishments, those with pre-school provision, those specialising in SEN provision, private technical colleges, universities? There will be plenty of unintended consequences.

Both my sons now attend private schools and if there’s an extra line on the invoice for the autumn term we’ll take the pain and suck it up because I want the best for them. It just leaves a bad taste in the mouth because you know the extra money for the state schools won’t make much difference.

In the case of my younger son, he fell between the cracks in a state primary where he didn’t qualify for an ECHP, needed additional learning support that they couldn’t deliver and was thoroughly miserable. We were able to move him to a small private school which specialises in provision for kids like him and he’s infinitely happier for it. So it’s important to stress that it’s not just about Oxbridge or access to an elite group of peers.

[AlvinSultana]

I pay for my children’s education, from money I earn.

I pay higher rate tax on those earnings so the cost is considerable.

So my efforts are contributing to the states coffers and my choices reduce the drain on said coffers.

Naughty me I must be punished.

Sometimes I even pay to see a doctor. After I have paid higher rate tax on the money my efforts have earned me. Those coffers really are looking better from my choices.

I really do need a thrashing.

[richhead]

AlvinSultana said:

I pay for my children’s education, from money I earn.

I pay higher rate tax on those earnings so the cost is considerable.

So my efforts are contributing to the states coffers and my choices reduce the drain on said coffers.

Naughty me I must be punished.

Sometimes I even pay to see a doctor. After I have paid higher rate tax on the money my efforts have earned me. Those coffers really are looking better from my choices.

I really do need a thrashing.

how dare you work hard to better your and your loved ones life, you evil person.
give everything you earn to the government immediately and live in a shed.

[numtumfutunch]

AlvinSultana said:

I pay for my children’s education, from money I earn.

I pay higher rate tax on those earnings so the cost is considerable.

So my efforts are contributing to the states coffers and my choices reduce the drain on said coffers.

Naughty me I must be punished.

Sometimes I even pay to see a doctor. After I have paid higher rate tax on the money my efforts have earned me. Those coffers really are looking better from my choices.

I really do need a thrashing.

Private schools are VAT exempt because they are registered as charities and must show a public benefit

Our local private school has a couple of token scholarships funded by alumni but does little else for the greater good

Id be really interested to hear what the school you send your kids does for the local community to justify its charitable status

Thanks in advance

PS private healthcare is currently VAT exempt - no idea why.....

[essayer]

Quite depressed about this, given everything to get the best education I can for my children, who will likely be uprooted from their friends and a place they’ve been happy at for a long time. I have no chance of affording higher fees, and I’ve sacrificed a lot to keep them where they are.

I don’t blame Labour, I blame the absolutely useless Tories.

[turbobloke]

In general the charitable element of independent schools' activities can be less visible or more visible e.g. joint CPD for teachers at no cost to local schjools = less visible, free use of facilities / resources for other schools = middle visibility, free use of facilities / resources for the community = more visible. It's not just bursaries which tend to be most visible.

[numtumfutunch]

turbobloke said:

In general the charitable element of independent schools' activities can be less visible or more visible e.g. joint CPD for teachers at no cost to local schjools = less visible, free use of facilities / resources for other schools = middle visibility, free use of facilities / resources for the community = more visible. It's not just bursaries which tend to be most visible.

Good point. As far as I know there is no cross pollination with CPD. Our neighbour teaches in the state school next door and would know

The local private school is also unusual in not having a swimming pool or fantastic sports facilities to loan out either

Yet its still a "charity"

Thanks for engaging

[turbobloke]

numtumfutunch said:

turbobloke said:

In general the charitable element of independent schools' activities can be less visible or more visible e.g. joint CPD for teachers at no cost to local schjools = less visible, free use of facilities / resources for other schools = middle visibility, free use of facilities / resources for the community = more visible. It's not just bursaries which tend to be most visible.

Good point. As far as I know there is no cross pollination with CPD. Our neighbour teaches in the state school next door and would know

The local private school is also unusual in not having a swimming pool or fantastic sports facilities to loan out either

Yet its still a "charity"

Thanks for engaging

Independent schools vary in the degree to which they embrace the charitable works expectations placed on them, true enough.

[numtumfutunch]

turbobloke said:

numtumfutunch said:

turbobloke said:

In general the charitable element of independent schools' activities can be less visible or more visible e.g. joint CPD for teachers at no cost to local schjools = less visible, free use of facilities / resources for other schools = middle visibility, free use of facilities / resources for the community = more visible. It's not just bursaries which tend to be most visible.

Good point. As far as I know there is no cross pollination with CPD. Our neighbour teaches in the state school next door and would know

The local private school is also unusual in not having a swimming pool or fantastic sports facilities to loan out either

Yet its still a "charity"

Thanks for engaging

Independent schools vary in the degree to which they embrace the charitable works expectations placed on them, true enough.

Thank you!

I thought I was PHs only bleeding heart liberal but may have now found a soul mate

Having said that my liberal affiliation died a little while ago after Nick sold us out......

Cheers

[turbobloke]

As approx 30% of independent schools don't have charitable status, they may either work with local schools and communities anyway, or not, and it would be tough on them if they were criticised for not doing so or doing more when they don't actually have to do anything.

The gov't has been placing pressure on those with charitable status to do more to justify it, and rightly so.

[Ken_Code]

richhead said:

, it is however a benefit to others. that cant be denied.

That depends. To posit something that would deny it, if it were the case that privately schooled people gave each other a leg-up in employment then hypothetically the net benefit to others could be minimal or zero.

Similarly,IIf it turned out that admissions tutors at university and employers were swayed by a veneer of confidence and a nice way of speaking then that too could reduce the net benefit to others to, or beyond, by giving less able but better-schooled candidates places that others were better suited for.

If that were the case then we’d see evidence of course. One piece of evidence would be that we’d see privately schooled pupils performing worse than state school pupils at university when looked at on a matched-grades basis.

While much more research would be welcomed, it is something that’s been looked at.

State pupils do better at university, study shows https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26773830

[CLK-GTR]

Have to say this is feeling like another kick in teeth for 30 something year olds.

Went to University just as they jacked up tuition fees snd saddled us with huge debt, entered the job market as the economy tanked, forced to buy houses at record price multiples, now for those of us trying to give our own kids an easier ride they want to make that tougher too.

Managing to muddle through it so far but it would be nice to experience a government that wasn't always trying to give everything we have to the retired, the offshore or the bone idle.

Edited by CLK-GTR on Sunday 26th May 23:34

[otolith]

Ken_Code said:

State pupils do better at university, study shows https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26773830

“State school pupils do better at university than independent school candidates who have achieved the same A-level grades, a study shows.”

What A-level grades would those state school kids have got if they had benefited from the same education as the independent school kids? To get the same grades from an inferior opportunity would suggest that they have more talent and might be expected to do better.

[Ken_Code]

otolith said:

“State school pupils do better at university than independent school candidates who have achieved the same A-level grades, a study shows.”

What A-level grades would those state school kids have got if they had benefited from the same education as the independent school kids? To get the same grades from an inferior opportunity would suggest that they have more talent and might be expected to do better.

Which is exactly the point being made. The data suggests that private pupils are getting better grades than their ability “deserves” and so are then being outperformed by state school pupils in university.

It suggests that despite efforts to try to do something about this universities are still selecting less able private school pupils over more able state school ones, which does argue against the statement that it is “unarguable” that the private school system also benefits those who don’t attend.

The fact is that it’s a bit more complex than the simplistic arguments suggest.

[Elysium]

numtumfutunch said:

AlvinSultana said:

I pay for my children’s education, from money I earn.

I pay higher rate tax on those earnings so the cost is considerable.

So my efforts are contributing to the states coffers and my choices reduce the drain on said coffers.

Naughty me I must be punished.

Sometimes I even pay to see a doctor. After I have paid higher rate tax on the money my efforts have earned me. Those coffers really are looking better from my choices.

I really do need a thrashing.

Private schools are VAT exempt because they are registered as charities and must show a public benefit

Our local private school has a couple of token scholarships funded by alumni but does little else for the greater good

Id be really interested to hear what the school you send your kids does for the local community to justify its charitable status

Thanks in advance

PS private healthcare is currently VAT exempt - no idea why.....

Surely private schools and healthcare are a good thing, The people that use these services free up taxpayer funded education and health capacity without any reduction in corresponding funding.

Charging VAT is self defeating if it prices out some families to the extent that more children need to rely on state education. .

[M1AGM]

CLK-GTR said:

Have to say this is feeling like another kick in teeth for 30 something year olds.

Went to University just as they jacked up tuition fees snd saddled us with huge debt, entered the job market as the economy tanked, forced to buy houses at record price multiples, now for those of us trying to give our own kids an easier ride they want to make that tougher too.

Managing to muddle through it so far but it would be nice to experience a government that wasn't always trying to give everything we have to the retired, the offshore or the bone idle.

Edited by CLK-GTR on Sunday 26th May 23:34

Agreed.

[OzzyR1]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

And I am not a socialist, far from it, but there are some things that need to change and a tax on wealth is defo one of them.

What would you suggest?

The top 10% of UK taxpayers currently contribute around 60% of all income tax receipts - should it be more in your view?

[otolith]

Ken_Code said:

Which is exactly the point being made. The data suggests that private pupils are getting better grades than their ability “deserves” and so are then being outperformed by state school pupils in university.

It suggests that despite efforts to try to do something about this universities are still selecting less able private school pupils over more able state school ones, which does argue against the statement that it is “unarguable” that the private school system also benefits those who don’t attend.

The fact is that it’s a bit more complex than the simplistic arguments suggest.

The background and opportunities of the candidates should always be considered when putting their achievements into context, in my opinion. But while the school they attended is easy to identify, the amount of parental support and any tutoring is harder to control for.

[chemistry]

OzzyR1 said:

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

And I am not a socialist, far from it, but there are some things that need to change and a tax on wealth is defo one of them.

What would you suggest?

The top 10% of UK taxpayers currently contribute around 60% of all income tax receipts - should it be more in your view?

Exactly; a wealth tax would just be another reason to drive HNWI away from the UK…and we’re already losing record numbers.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/06/18/ri...

Nonetheless I fully expect Labour to implement a wealth tax at some stage, because - just as with VAT on private school fees - punishing ‘the rich’ is far more important than economic or social good sense (not that I’ve any faith in the Tories, I might add). The UK’s prospects are bleak.

[ooid]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

You should be paying some fking tax on that wealth if you are choosing to spend it on a discretionary purchase. It’s far better for society if you and others do.

.

No wonder Marx was expelled from Germany and had to seek refuge in England. Far more easier to get followers here who have unbelievable level of entitlement and hate towards any personal wealth.