Does anyone believe supernatural rubbish?

[smn159]

Efbe said:

The same thing we saw during Brexit, the recent US election and BBC reporting.

Ah, you're one of those people

I see.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Science gives us questions we can't answer.
Religion gives us answers we can't question.

[Roofless Toothless]

p1stonhead said:

Rawwr said:

Efbe said:

No, it's done in a patronising 'I am better than you because I know everything' middle class kind of way.

The same thing we saw during Brexit, the recent US election and BBC reporting.

A narrow minded condescending attitude, that with hindsight is invariably incorrect, lacking credence due to an inability to really understand what they have been told and the arrogance that the knowledge they have is definitive, can never be challenged and will never be rewritten.

Almost exactly the same as the pious from previous centuries.

In black and white terms of religion vs science (which is mildly preposterous, anyway), my view is that religion in the vast majority of cases states; "This is the way." whereas science states; "This may be the way and this is why..."

Those that truly understand scientific method know full well that it's not definitive, will always answer challenges and is frequently rewritten. The same cannot be said of devout religious belief, despite provision of evidence to the contrary.

Somone's faith being challenged is bad for them because there isnt another way you can argue things because you never had any way to back up the claims to start with.

Science loves to be proven wrong as it means something new had been discovered and we can move forward on that basis and further our understanding. Most scientists would probably love nothing more for the established big theories to be proven wrong because it would mean a huge discovery has been made.

Not the scientists that write the textbooks and make a lot of dough from their sales.

[gregs656]

p1stonhead said:

No such thing as 'faith' in science. There is evidence and established theories. You dont need faith.

There certainly is faith in science, when people (who are generally not scientists them selves) absolutely believe that the scientific method can answer all questions and solve all problems. When people are so sure science has all the answers that they no longer place value in other ways of approaching the world and the questions life throws at us - that is having faith in science. What else would you call it?

TwigtheWonderkid said:

The device you used to post that nonsense...prayed into existence was it?

Interesting that you made a choice to play the man not the ball on a post about how people get dogmatic about science. Mega.

Nanook said:

Yeah, just like that.

Except that you know, science usually can provide an answer, thats based on more than "It's God's work" or "Ghosts, obviously!"

I think my problem is not what science can or can't do, but how people perceive what science can do and more importantly how they present science (and logic) in discussions and arguments. Often the line of argument is much more a long the line of 'It's God's work' than a concrete discussion about a relevant study, or even a brief sketch of the history of the scientific interrogation of the topic. These people are not scientists, nor do they have the first clue of how the answer was arrived at - what competing ideas there are etc - they have no knowledge of the topic at all other than science tells us this on Wiki. That is faith, not understanding. A mere appeal to an authority, no different from an appeal to the authority of God.

[Rawwr]

Roofless Toothless said:

Not the scientists that write the textbooks and make a lot of dough from their sales.

Citation required.

[Butter Face]

Roofless Toothless said:

Not the scientists that write the textbooks and make a lot of dough from their sales.

Ah yeah, all those people that go into the field of science for the money and the women

[p1stonhead]

gregs656 said:

p1stonhead said:

No such thing as 'faith' in science. There is evidence and established theories. You dont need faith.

There certainly is faith in science, when people (who are generally not scientists them selves) absolutely believe that the scientific method can answer all questions and solve all problems. When people are so sure science has all the answers that they no longer place value in other ways of approaching the world and the questions life throws at us - that is having faith in science. What else would you call it?

No there isnt faith in science.

Established scientific theories are the best current guess based on what we have witnessed/tested.

I dont know anyone who says science can 'answer all the questions or solve all the problems'. Science knows what it knows and knows what it doesnt. It doesnt fill in the gaps to make itself feel better - 'we dont know yet' is a fine positon to have.

Scientific theory isnt just put out there by someone and accepted by everyone else. Ever heard of peer review?

We believe that scientists are telling the truth because their ideas are constantly tested they are never just one persons view on things.

[gregs656]

p1stonhead said:

I dont know anyone who says science can 'answer all the questions or solve all the problems'.

I do, and those people have faith in science.

[p1stonhead]

gregs656 said:

p1stonhead said:

I dont know anyone who says science can 'answer all the questions or solve all the problems'.

I do, and those people have faith in science.

Science may one day answer a lot of the unanswered questions but 'all' of them? Probably not.

The people you know who think science already can answer all the questions are the same as those who believe in God or Supernatural stuff.

[gregs656]

Nanook said:

Do you know planes work? How they stay in the air?

I'll assume for the moment you don't. If you do, substitute 'plane' for anything else you like. TV signals perhaps. Or X-ray photography

How about the nature of being? Or the specific feeling I had yesterday, sat on a plane listening to the opening bars of Dark Side of the Moon? How about what knowledge is? Or whether morality is absolute? Perhaps why we exist at all? Or what happened before the big bang? Perhaps it could explain to me why people believe in things at all? What about the nature of love?

Which text do I need to buy?

[p1stonhead]

gregs656 said:

Nanook said:

Do you know planes work? How they stay in the air?

I'll assume for the moment you don't. If you do, substitute 'plane' for anything else you like. TV signals perhaps. Or X-ray photography

How about the nature of being? Or the specific feeling I had yesterday, sat on a plane listening to the opening bars of Dark Side of the Moon? How about what knowledge is? Or whether morality is absolute? Perhaps why we exist at all? Or what happened before the big bang? Perhaps it could explain to me why people believe in things at all? What about the nature of love?

Which text do I need to buy?

How about 'we dont know but may one day' rather than 'ghosts or god or something probably did it'?

[TwigtheWonderkid]

gregs656 said:

p1stonhead said:

No such thing as 'faith' in science. There is evidence and established theories. You dont need faith.

There certainly is faith in science, when people (who are generally not scientists them selves) absolutely believe that the scientific method can answer all questions and solve all problems. When people are so sure science has all the answers that they no longer place value in other ways of approaching the world and the questions life throws at us - that is having faith in science. What else would you call it?

Faith is the belief in stuff without evidence, or often contrary to the evidence.

So a belief that the scientific method works is not faith. There's a mountain of evidence to show that it works.

And if you really know people who think science can answer everything, then you are hanging around with loonies. There are some questions regarding moral positions where science doesn't event want to go.

Science can't answer questions about bringing back the death penalty, legalised abortion, and many other subjects.

[gregs656]

Nanook said:

Try a bible. It might have all the answers you're looking for.

You don't think science will find answers?

You accept not all questions are not appropriate for the scientific method?

[SilverSixer]

gregs656 said:

Nanook said:

Do you know planes work? How they stay in the air?

I'll assume for the moment you don't. If you do, substitute 'plane' for anything else you like. TV signals perhaps. Or X-ray photography

How about the nature of being? Or the specific feeling I had yesterday, sat on a plane listening to the opening bars of Dark Side of the Moon? How about what knowledge is? Or whether morality is absolute? Perhaps why we exist at all? Or what happened before the big bang? Perhaps it could explain to me why people believe in things at all? What about the nature of love?

Which text do I need to buy?

Philosophy is useless. Theology is worse. (Copyright Dire Straits)

One of those things you speak of has been explained by Stephen Hawking - there was no 'before' when considering the Big Bang. It initiated 'time', and needed no supernatural intervention to start it. The supernatural is not required to explain anything subsequent to that. It is now a redundant proposition.

[shakotan]

gregs656 said:

Nanook said:

Do you know planes work? How they stay in the air?

I'll assume for the moment you don't. If you do, substitute 'plane' for anything else you like. TV signals perhaps. Or X-ray photography

How about the nature of being? Or the specific feeling I had yesterday, sat on a plane listening to the opening bars of Dark Side of the Moon? How about what knowledge is? Or whether morality is absolute? Perhaps why we exist at all? Or what happened before the big bang? Perhaps it could explain to me why people believe in things at all? What about the nature of love?

Which text do I need to buy?

Science doesn't have the answer to your questions, nor may it ever.

However, the default reason behind an unanswered question cannot be "Because God did it".

The pool of claims that God is responsible for everything that we experience diminished every time science makes a new discovery. That pool is finite, and may one day be a mere puddle, or hopefully dry up altogether.

[gregs656]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Faith is the belief in stuff without evidence, or often contrary to the evidence.

Defined as a complete trust or confidence in something (or some one). No requirement for it to be without or contrary to the evidence.

I would say many non-scientists have faith in science.

[Chebble]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Roofless Toothless said:

What about the scientists who have proposed multiple parallel universes? Are they delusional?

Have any scientists actually said "it's definitely multiple parallel universes"? Proposing an idea for investigation is not the same as ignoring a mountain of evidence that contradicts your idea, sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "you don't know, I was there".

If I scientist proposes a hypothesis, but others come forward to say "I think this is a much better explanation, and here's some evidence to back up my alternative idea", and it is a much better explanation, not many scientists just ignore it and stick to their flawed conclusion.

The reason science isn't like religion is because if humankind was struck by a mysterious virus that wiped out all our knowledge, and we had to start again from scratch, in 10K years we would still have religion, but it would be an entirely different set of gods and beliefs to the ones we have now. In 10K years we would also have made scientific discoveries, and they would be identical to what we have now. the maths would be the same,the physics would be the same, the chemistry and biology would be the same.

Very well put.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

I've been reading this thread with interest over the last few weeks. I'm on the fence, but I do suspect there is something to do with peoples minds filling in the blanks when their brain can't explain something.

I have one tale though, from my late grandfather. I never knew him, he died when my dad was 15. My dad however simply hasn't got the ability to lie, he's probably the most honest person I know. My late gran also verified the events to me.

Having ridden his motorbike home one evening he came in looking very disturbed. Another man was present in the house (this is the one detail I can't remember, maybe was his brother or a friend) was there. My grandmother asked him what was wrong, and the other gent piped up, 'I know what's up, you've seen that lady in the field haven't you' to which he confirmed. He said that coming through a corner he clearly saw a lady carrying a baby walking in the field, but it was only when he'd come through the bend he realised that his headlight had shone straight through her.

For all I know this could have been him and the other man having a laugh at my grans expense, but my dad confirms he was indeed white as a sheet when he came in.

[p1stonhead]

Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:

I've been reading this thread with interest over the last few weeks. I'm on the fence, but I do suspect there is something to do with peoples minds filling in the blanks when their brain can't explain something.

I have one tale though, from my late grandfather. I never knew him, he died when my dad was 15. My dad however simply hasn't got the ability to lie, he's probably the most honest person I know. My late gran also verified the events to me.

Having ridden his motorbike home one evening he came in looking very disturbed. Another man was present in the house (this is the one detail I can't remember, maybe was his brother or a friend) was there. My grandmother asked him what was wrong, and the other gent piped up, 'I know what's up, you've seen that lady in the field haven't you' to which he confirmed. He said that coming through a corner he clearly saw a lady carrying a baby walking in the field, but it was only when he'd come through the bend he realised that his headlight had shone straight through her.

For all I know this could have been him and the other man having a laugh at my grans expense, but my dad confirms he was indeed white as a sheet when he came in.

Couldnt it have just been an actual woman in a field but he was mistaken about the headlight? Or a bush that looked like a woman from a specific angle which the headlight did sort of shine through? Occams razor and all that.

Why jump to something supernatural which you are presumably suggesting? Its a huge leap no?

[Robbo 27]

Have told this story before on another thread. Was travelling in Derbyshire, myself, wife and her sister. stopped at an old pub for lunch. Sister in law needed a pee and went upstairs. Whilst she was there, washing her hands a small girl, about 8 years old started talking to her, weather and stuff. The girl said her father was the landlord. Sister in law came downstairs, said to the landlord she had just been talking to his daughter, you would have a job he said, she is in Edinburgh. He asked what she looked like and was told a small girl about 8, long dress.

'You have seen Mary, she lived here about 1830, died in a fire'.