Christians on PH?
Discussion
Ossiantoad said:
I'm a bit late to the party but in response to the OP and the very first post, yes, I'm a Christian and a car fan. Like to go down to Goodwood once a year, enjoy a track day, spend a bit too much time browsing the PH classifieds.
In general response to some of the other themes that have arisen, with regards to shellfish and polyester, you must remember that context is crucial. A large chunk of the old testament law is Civil Law, specifically for the Israelite nation of that time, three millennia ago. That nation no longer exists and as we are not citizens of that nation the laws no more apply to us than speed limit on British roads applies to a Peruvian driving through Lima.
I'm sure that PH will agree that a law against eating shellfish was pretty sensible for a nation that lived in a desert without access to refrigeration or modern healthcare.
Another very important point. The vast majority of religions in the world (including many that come under the 'Christian'banner) are systems for earning God's favour. Keep our rules, obey our holymen, worship in our buildings, wear our clothes and perform our tasks. If you do then God will be pleased and will reward you when you die.
The teaching of the Bible is fundamentally different. Jesus taught that all men are sinners (and He acknowledged that that is an offensive thing to say to people). We cannot ultimately please God by our own efforts however hard we try and no one ever has. Salvation is a gift, not something we earn. Forgiveness is what we need and that comes through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.
The God of the Bible is perfectly holy and cannot allow any sin to go unpunished and therefore Jesus Christ came to Earth, lived a sinless life and then was offered as a sacrifice to pay the price for the sins of His people so that they don't have to.
True Christians therefore try to live good lives, not because they think that will earn them salvation, but in gratitude for the salvation they have already received as a free gift.
Massively offensive? Of course. That's why so many have been killed for saying it. But just because it is offensive that doesn't mean it isn't true.
Not offensive. While I might fundamentally disagree with your view of the world, as long as you don't go down the 'you will be assimilated' route, that's your choice. Having said that, the inherent conversion thing, along with the occasional superiority complex (which is undeserved) is ever so slightly boring & confrontational.In general response to some of the other themes that have arisen, with regards to shellfish and polyester, you must remember that context is crucial. A large chunk of the old testament law is Civil Law, specifically for the Israelite nation of that time, three millennia ago. That nation no longer exists and as we are not citizens of that nation the laws no more apply to us than speed limit on British roads applies to a Peruvian driving through Lima.
I'm sure that PH will agree that a law against eating shellfish was pretty sensible for a nation that lived in a desert without access to refrigeration or modern healthcare.
Another very important point. The vast majority of religions in the world (including many that come under the 'Christian'banner) are systems for earning God's favour. Keep our rules, obey our holymen, worship in our buildings, wear our clothes and perform our tasks. If you do then God will be pleased and will reward you when you die.
The teaching of the Bible is fundamentally different. Jesus taught that all men are sinners (and He acknowledged that that is an offensive thing to say to people). We cannot ultimately please God by our own efforts however hard we try and no one ever has. Salvation is a gift, not something we earn. Forgiveness is what we need and that comes through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.
The God of the Bible is perfectly holy and cannot allow any sin to go unpunished and therefore Jesus Christ came to Earth, lived a sinless life and then was offered as a sacrifice to pay the price for the sins of His people so that they don't have to.
True Christians therefore try to live good lives, not because they think that will earn them salvation, but in gratitude for the salvation they have already received as a free gift.
Massively offensive? Of course. That's why so many have been killed for saying it. But just because it is offensive that doesn't mean it isn't true.
Having said that:
Not sure how any true Christian can see further than the nastiest Perodua, or equivalent, or better still Hindustan Ambassador, or can support the decadence that comes from liking expensive fripperies.
Robbo 27 said:
Eric Mc said:
You are assuming a human conceit to create an assumed rationality of behaviour. Back in the 1920s, when Heisenberg's Theory of Uncertainty was being discussed, Einstein publicly came out against it stating "God does not play dice with the universe".
I think it was Neils Bohr who replied to Einstein - "Who are you to tell what God can or cannot do".
.... and to paraphrase - Who are any of us to tell what God should or should not do.I think it was Neils Bohr who replied to Einstein - "Who are you to tell what God can or cannot do".
Pints said:
DukeDickson said:
Not sure how any true Christian can see further than the nastiest Perodua, or equivalent, or better still Hindustan Ambassador, or can support the decadence that comes from liking expensive fripperies.
Are you suggesting Christianity is an anti-capitalism religion? As should they all.
Mopey said:
Especially as from a Christian point of view it has serious ramifications if what we say is true.
Religion is cultural and largely 'caught' from your parents. If you're born in a christian country to christian parents then that's what you'll be. Likewise for muslim / hindu countries. It's a product of in-group / out group thinking and of the need for people to explain a complex world in easy to understand ways. There's also a likely evolutionary advantage in readily accepting directives from authority at a young age.There's not a shred of evidence that it's true.
smn159 said:
Mopey said:
Especially as from a Christian point of view it has serious ramifications if what we say is true.
Religion is cultural and largely 'caught' from your parents. If you're born in a christian country to christian parents then that's what you'll be. Likewise for muslim / hindu countries. It's a product of in-group / out group thinking and of the need for people to explain a complex world in easy to understand ways. There's also a likely evolutionary advantage in readily accepting directives from authority at a young age.There's not a shred of evidence that it's true.
Not a shred of evidence then. HTH
It's one thing for people to believe in the sins/redemption/love aspect - that's fine and admirable, though I happen not to share that belief.
But young earth/creationist/anti-evolution proponents really should not expect to post here or anywhere unchallenged. That's not attacking Christianity, nor is it "militant atheism" - it's defending science.
But young earth/creationist/anti-evolution proponents really should not expect to post here or anywhere unchallenged. That's not attacking Christianity, nor is it "militant atheism" - it's defending science.
smn159 said:
Mopey said:
the overwhelming historical accuracy of what we know as the old and new testaments
Not a shred of evidence then. HTH
So the Earth was created in 6 days / Jesus was born to a virgin mother, died and came back to life, cured the sick, sawed a woman in half...Not a shred of evidence then. HTH
seriously?
Nimby said:
It's one thing for people to believe in the sins/redemption/love aspect - that's fine and admirable, though I happen not to share that belief.
But young earth/creationist/anti-evolution proponents really should not expect to post here or anywhere unchallenged. That's not attacking Christianity, nor is it "militant atheism" - it's defending science.
"Anyone else believe they have a special friend in the sky?"But young earth/creationist/anti-evolution proponents really should not expect to post here or anywhere unchallenged. That's not attacking Christianity, nor is it "militant atheism" - it's defending science.
"No. You dont. And heres all the facts surrounding that"
"Arrgghhh!!!! How dare you persecute me! (sticks fingers in ears) LA LA LA LA LA"
Ossiantoad said:
I'm a bit late to the party but in response to the OP and the very first post, yes, I'm a Christian and a car fan. Like to go down to Goodwood once a year, enjoy a track day, spend a bit too much time browsing the PH classifieds.
In general response to some of the other themes that have arisen, with regards to shellfish and polyester, you must remember that context is crucial. A large chunk of the old testament law is Civil Law, specifically for the Israelite nation of that time, three millennia ago. That nation no longer exists and as we are not citizens of that nation the laws no more apply to us than speed limit on British roads applies to a Peruvian driving through Lima.
Hmmm. Ok. So if the Bible is the word of God, and for all of us to follow why did he put so much in it taken from law at the time even though it was to be a truth for everyone in the future? Its almost like it was written by men for men is it not?In general response to some of the other themes that have arisen, with regards to shellfish and polyester, you must remember that context is crucial. A large chunk of the old testament law is Civil Law, specifically for the Israelite nation of that time, three millennia ago. That nation no longer exists and as we are not citizens of that nation the laws no more apply to us than speed limit on British roads applies to a Peruvian driving through Lima.
Also, you can explain away the bits of the old testament about laws but what about all of the raping, killing, slaughter of innocent people in the old testament? Do we ignore all that too because we dont like that either?
I could quote you all day on it but heres one i recall -
Of the people of Babylon (modern day Iraq)
"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)
So raping of women and killing of children?
Not exactly "suffer the little children to come on to me?" is it?
Not feeling a whole pile of love and peace there. And the Old Testament is rife with that. Rape, murder of innocent people and children, mass murder, butchering of people in inhumane ways - its all in there.
Ossiantoad said:
Massively offensive? Of course. That's why so many have been killed for saying it. But just because it is offensive that doesn't mean it isn't true.
Its massively offensive to me because your "friend in the sky" belief system (most of which predates christianity) has been forced upon our society and has shaped our society almost wholly in a bad way.Whilst you might pick out the "love and peace" phrases of christianity, that is not how it was rolled out across Europe and that is not how it has existed in society.
smn159 said:
Mopey said:
the overwhelming historical accuracy of what we know as the old and new testaments
Not a shred of evidence then. HTH
So the Earth was created in 6 days / Jesus was born to a virgin mother, died and came back to life, cured the sick, sawed a woman in half...Not a shred of evidence then. HTH
seriously?
Do you dispute he existed?
Do you dispute that he performed the miraculous?
Think that's a good place to start.
daemon said:
Its massively offensive to me because your "friend in the sky" belief system (most of which predates christianity) has been forced upon our society and has shaped our society almost wholly in a bad way.
Whilst you might pick out the "love and peace" phrases of christianity, that is not how it was rolled out across Europe and that is not how it has existed in society.
On the rape/pillage vs peace and live,isn't it obvious god smoked some weed and got laid in between writing the old and new testaments Whilst you might pick out the "love and peace" phrases of christianity, that is not how it was rolled out across Europe and that is not how it has existed in society.
Mopey said:
Let's forget the creation narrative for a bit, and look at the life of Jesus...
Do you dispute he existed?
Do you dispute that he performed the miraculous?
Think that's a good place to start.
Why? Ignore the whole Old Testament because it doesnt really fit with the message? I thought the Bible was the Word of God, given to men?Do you dispute he existed?
Do you dispute that he performed the miraculous?
Think that's a good place to start.
Mopey said:
Do you dispute he existed?
Do you dispute that he performed the miraculous?
Think that's a good place to start.
Jesus didnt exist as the son of god. He was placed into history up to several hundred years subsequently to build a religion around. He might have been - or been losely based on - some prophet known at the time. And there were hundreds of them.Do you dispute that he performed the miraculous?
Think that's a good place to start.
The New testament goes to great length to make him in to the Son of God foretold in the old testament. He was supposed to be a descendant of the House of David, however he wasnt. Mary wasnt of the House of David and Joseph wasnt his father. However the New Testament persists with trying to make the tenuous link in the four gospels - none of which are consistent with each other.
The whole Son of God / Sun God thing was pretty much taken verbatim from other preceding religions (mostly Egyptian) and hacked together to make a new religion, which was then rolled out by the Romans who were keen to adapt one religion - any religion frankly - for unification purposes.
NeMiSiS said:
If David Blaine was around at the time when Jesus was performing do you think they would have exchanged notes?
I understand that David's disappearing pocket squares are not a patch on the parting of the Red Sea but entertaining all the same.
David Blaine walked on water though didnt he?I understand that David's disappearing pocket squares are not a patch on the parting of the Red Sea but entertaining all the same.
In fact, people saw him doing it, as opposed to being merely told someone did it hundreds of years later.
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