Well I think I will turn Vegan!
Discussion
Phil. said:
Willy Nilly said:
I have not read this thoroughly but I am almost certain that all animals have to be stunned before slaughter.........
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. If I don't know, I'll find out.
Please tell me what happens to male chicks in the egg industry. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. If I don't know, I'll find out.
Phil. said:
No, enjoying a healthy life with lots good things to look forward to doing with my family. My dad missed out on loads of good things including meeting my children.
Oh, I take it you're saying all people who fear death are religious. It's usually the contrary. And I take it you're saying all religious people are preachers. What a numpty
It seems a bit of a knee jerk reaction to something that's happened to family members and extreme one at that, yes, alter your diet but cutting out meat completely is just unnecessary. A healthy diet can include a mix of everything in the right amounts, its all about moderation! Oh, I take it you're saying all people who fear death are religious. It's usually the contrary. And I take it you're saying all religious people are preachers. What a numpty
And I didn't say that at all, the religious on the whole are pretty preachy though! I do accept that I've not had any vegans on my doorstep though!
Edited by bobbo89 on Saturday 3rd September 17:04
bobbo89 said:
It seems a bit of a knee jerk reaction to something that's happened to family members and extreme one at that, yes, alter your diet but cutting out meat completely is just unnecessary. A healthy diet can include a mix of everything in the right amounts, its all about moderation!
And I didn't say that at all, the religious on the whole are pretty preachy though! I do accept that I've not had any vegans on my doorstep though!
Not a knee jerk reaction. I've been doing my best to stay healthy since my dad died 20 years ago. What's changed recently are my beliefs about healthy eating based on research I have read.And I didn't say that at all, the religious on the whole are pretty preachy though! I do accept that I've not had any vegans on my doorstep though!
Edited by bobbo89 on Saturday 3rd September 17:04
Phil. said:
Trabi601 said:
One thing that particularly makes me laugh about vegans / vegetarians, is they replace meat with stuff that looks (and often tastes) as much like meat as possible. See page linked!
It's all designed to make the meat eaters feel more comfortable when around veggies/vegans 
Phil. said:
Agree there are loads of dishes that don't need a meat substitute. Pinterest is a good source of recipes. I'm not particularly fond of tofu and don't normally eat quorn. I ate homemade chickpea curry last night and survived without adding chicken. I'm guessing there are millions if not a billion or two of people in India that eat a meat free diet. How novel is that!
Something to do with there being no economic alternative, I'd suggest - and also influenced by the religious mix, where Muslims cannot eat pork and Hindus cannot eat beef.Phil. said:
Willy Nilly said:
They get minced. Takes a fraction of a second. HTH.
So chicks get minced alive shortly after birth, no gassing or sedation? Any idea how many a year get minced in the US or UK? What happens to the mince?
Genuine questions.
I would assume that you get pretty much 50:50 male and female, so you could assume, for every hen hatched a cock was hatched which was killed. The laying birds will have been bred to just produce eggs and won't put on weight, certainly wouldn't convert feed into meat efficiently enough, so are of no commercial use. The margins on fattening birds on in the pennies per bird for the producer, so very tight.
I'd take a guess that what ever they are minced into ends up in pet food, but wouldn't know for sure.
In the egg industry, the sex of day-old chicks is determined at the hatchery. Sexing chicks (determining whether they are a hen or a rooster) requires considerable skill and is done at this very early stage to determine their fate.
If strong and healthy, the female chicks remain in the hatchery, they are grown to a suitable size and then transferred to a laying facility — which could be a caged, free-range or barn set up. Male chicks are considered an unwanted byproduct of egg production and are killed and disposed of shortly after birth.
Male chicks are killed for two reasons: they cannot lay eggs and they are not suitable for chicken-meat production. This is because layer hens — and therefore their chicks — are a different breed of poultry to chickens that are bred and raised for meat production. Layer hens are bred to produce eggs whereas meat chickens are bred to grow large breast muscle and legs.
Chick hatcheries breed one or the other type of chick depending on which poultry industry they supply — egg or meat. At the layer-hen hatcheries supplying the egg industry with layer hens, the eggs are developed in industrial incubators. Once hatched, the newborn chicks pass down a production line to be sexed and sorted. Sick or weak female chicks and all male chicks are separated from the healthy female chicks and then killed.
The Model Code of Practice for the Welfare of Animals: Domestic Poultry states that all culled or surplus newly hatched chicks that are destined for disposal must be treated as humanely as those that will be retained or sold. They must be destroyed promptly by a recommended humane method such as carbon dioxide gassing or quick maceration. Chicks must then be carefully inspected to ensure they are all are dead.
Quick maceration ensures the chick is killed within a second and, if carried out effectively and competently, this method is considered more humane than gassing with high concentrations of carbon dioxide. Gassing results in gasping and head shaking and, depending on the mixture of gases used, it may take up to two minutes for the chick to die.
The RSPCA continues to urge the egg industry to invest in alternatives that avoid the potential for pain and suffering with current killing methods of male chicks. For example, research into alternatives to allow chick sex to be determined in the early egg incubation phase should be urgently progressed.
http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-happens-with-male-chic...
This is the mass food industry. I'll stick up a video if anyone is interested. You can't unsee it!
If strong and healthy, the female chicks remain in the hatchery, they are grown to a suitable size and then transferred to a laying facility — which could be a caged, free-range or barn set up. Male chicks are considered an unwanted byproduct of egg production and are killed and disposed of shortly after birth.
Male chicks are killed for two reasons: they cannot lay eggs and they are not suitable for chicken-meat production. This is because layer hens — and therefore their chicks — are a different breed of poultry to chickens that are bred and raised for meat production. Layer hens are bred to produce eggs whereas meat chickens are bred to grow large breast muscle and legs.
Chick hatcheries breed one or the other type of chick depending on which poultry industry they supply — egg or meat. At the layer-hen hatcheries supplying the egg industry with layer hens, the eggs are developed in industrial incubators. Once hatched, the newborn chicks pass down a production line to be sexed and sorted. Sick or weak female chicks and all male chicks are separated from the healthy female chicks and then killed.
The Model Code of Practice for the Welfare of Animals: Domestic Poultry states that all culled or surplus newly hatched chicks that are destined for disposal must be treated as humanely as those that will be retained or sold. They must be destroyed promptly by a recommended humane method such as carbon dioxide gassing or quick maceration. Chicks must then be carefully inspected to ensure they are all are dead.
Quick maceration ensures the chick is killed within a second and, if carried out effectively and competently, this method is considered more humane than gassing with high concentrations of carbon dioxide. Gassing results in gasping and head shaking and, depending on the mixture of gases used, it may take up to two minutes for the chick to die.
The RSPCA continues to urge the egg industry to invest in alternatives that avoid the potential for pain and suffering with current killing methods of male chicks. For example, research into alternatives to allow chick sex to be determined in the early egg incubation phase should be urgently progressed.
http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-happens-with-male-chic...
This is the mass food industry. I'll stick up a video if anyone is interested. You can't unsee it!
It's all very well not approving of it, but what is your alternative? It only takes a second, have you ever seen a fox killing a bird?
I am sure the poultry industry would like to find a use for all of the healthy birds, but they have had to become very specialised to be economical to produce and as such the males are nor wanted.
It really is the same problem that the dairy industry faces.
I am sure the poultry industry would like to find a use for all of the healthy birds, but they have had to become very specialised to be economical to produce and as such the males are nor wanted.
It really is the same problem that the dairy industry faces.
glazbagun said:
Trabi601 said:
One thing that particularly makes me laugh about vegans / vegetarians, is they replace meat with stuff that looks (and often tastes) as much like meat as possible. See page linked!
I think that's a symptom of the poor culinary education of your typical Brit trying to convert from the only diet they've known. Indians have tons of dishes which are vegetarian and don't need a meat substitute to make them any better.
Willy Nilly said:
It's all very well not approving of it, but what is your alternative? It only takes a second, have you ever seen a fox killing a bird?
I am sure the poultry industry would like to find a use for all of the healthy birds, but they have had to become very specialised to be economical to produce and as such the males are nor wanted.
It really is the same problem that the dairy industry faces.
I agree there is no alternative if you decide to eat mass produced eggs and dairy, both of which are unnecessary in a balanced diet. There is also research that demonstrates the negative effect of eggs and dairy on the human health, particularly cancers. Both eggs and dairy contain massive amounts of growth hormones which are designed to accelerate cell growth, the basis for cancer. It's all out there in the public domain for anyone interested.I am sure the poultry industry would like to find a use for all of the healthy birds, but they have had to become very specialised to be economical to produce and as such the males are nor wanted.
It really is the same problem that the dairy industry faces.
Phil. said:
I agree there is no alternative if you decide to eat mass produced eggs and dairy, both of which are unnecessary in a balanced diet. There is also research that demonstrates the negative effect of eggs and dairy on the human health, particularly cancers.{b} Both eggs and dairy contain massive amounts of growth hormones [/b] which are designed to accelerate cell growth, the basis for cancer. It's all out there in the public domain for anyone interested.
There are absolutely no growth hormones used in the UK and I am almost certain the whole of the EU. I am not even sure how much is actually used in the US either. Willy Nilly said:
It's all very well not approving of it, but what is your alternative? It only takes a second, have you ever seen a fox killing a bird?
PS Would this mode of killing be acceptable in the UK if it were another baby animal involved, perhaps a puppy or piglet. So why is it acceptable practice for a chick? What we find acceptable practice seems to dependent on how we label animals in a particular country. Frogs in France, dogs in the east etc. Willy Nilly said:
There are absolutely no growth hormones used in the UK and I am almost certain the whole of the EU. I am not even sure how much is actually used in the US either.
I'm talking about natural growth hormones, the sort in milk that grows a calf in to a fully grown cow in 12 months, and the growth hormones in a egg that produces a chick. All these hormones massively accelerate cell growth. There is some interesting research linking these growth hormones to prostate and other cancers. Not just increasing the risk of cancer but the positive impact of removing eggs and dairy from a diet if you are diagnosed with a cancer. I've not yet mentioned the added stuff in cows milk like the bucket loads of antibiotics, along with all the lovely natural cows mucus our body has to endure.
Phil. said:
Willy Nilly said:
It's all very well not approving of it, but what is your alternative? It only takes a second, have you ever seen a fox killing a bird?
PS Would this mode of killing be acceptable in the UK if it were another baby animal involved, perhaps a puppy or piglet. So why is it acceptable practice for a chick? What we find acceptable practice seems to dependent on how we label animals in a particular country. Frogs in France, dogs in the east etc. There was a program on the telly about killing prisoners on death row and how it was actually quite difficult to kill someone quickly and painlessly. As the chick are so very small they will weigh nothing in relation to any machinery used and "processed very quickly". The RSPCA (for the record, dads vet had a very dim view on the RSCPA, a bunch of failed vets IIRC) said that gassing wasn't 100% effective in that it took them longer to die.
Phil. said:
I'm talking about natural growth hormones, the sort in milk that grows a calf in to a fully grown cow in 12 months, and the growth hormones in a egg that produces a chick. All these hormones massively accelerate cell growth. There is some interesting research linking these growth hormones to prostate and other cancers. Not just increasing the risk of cancer but the positive impact of removing eggs and dairy from a diet if you are diagnosed with a cancer.
I've not yet mentioned the added stuff in cows milk like the bucket loads of antibiotics, along with all the lovely natural cows mucus our body has to endure.
Where do you stand on the leather in your cars? - I'm sure it was asked, but a proper answer never gained.I've not yet mentioned the added stuff in cows milk like the bucket loads of antibiotics, along with all the lovely natural cows mucus our body has to endure.
Leather is currently a by-product of the meat and dairy industry. You swing from 'health benefits' to 'animal welfare' quite randomly, so surely you would have taken the choice not to buy something covered in dead animal skin?
Phil. said:
Willy Nilly said:
There are absolutely no growth hormones used in the UK and I am almost certain the whole of the EU. I am not even sure how much is actually used in the US either.
I'm talking about natural growth hormones, the sort in milk that grows a calf in to a fully grown cow in 12 months, and the growth hormones in a egg that produces a chick. All these hormones massively accelerate cell growth. There is some interesting research linking these growth hormones to prostate and other cancers. Not just increasing the risk of cancer but the positive impact of removing eggs and dairy from a diet if you are diagnosed with a cancer. I've not yet mentioned the added stuff in cows milk like the bucket loads of antibiotics, along with all the lovely natural cows mucus our body has to endure.
Antibiotic resistant bugs are just as much of a problem for farmers as the general public at large.
I still don't buy the growth hormone thing. At what dose level has it been proven to cause cancer and which cancer has it been proven to cause? Everything grows and needs hormones.
Trabi601 said:
Where do you stand on the leather in your cars? - I'm sure it was asked, but a proper answer never gained.
Leather is currently a by-product of the meat and dairy industry. You swing from 'health benefits' to 'animal welfare' quite randomly, so surely you would have taken the choice not to buy something covered in dead animal skin?
I've been asked this earlier. See the earlier post for a fuller response. Leather is currently a by-product of the meat and dairy industry. You swing from 'health benefits' to 'animal welfare' quite randomly, so surely you would have taken the choice not to buy something covered in dead animal skin?
I'm not a vegan, I'm eating a plant-based diet and discussing it's health merits, and the positive impact on animal welfare. I still use leather shoes etc. I'm certainly not the perfect specimen and after 50+ years of eating meat, am not judging anyone.
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