Well I think I will turn Vegan!
Discussion
Phil. said:
I've been asked this earlier. See the earlier post for a fuller response.
I'm not a vegan, I'm eating a plant-based diet and discussing it's health merits, and the positive impact on animal welfare. I still use leather shoes etc. I'm certainly not the perfect specimen and after 50+ years of eating meat, am not judging anyone.
All seems very pointless, then. A bit Daily Mail, too - where everything has a link to cancer, allegedly.I'm not a vegan, I'm eating a plant-based diet and discussing it's health merits, and the positive impact on animal welfare. I still use leather shoes etc. I'm certainly not the perfect specimen and after 50+ years of eating meat, am not judging anyone.
I just can't rationalise anyone discussing the 'positive impact on animal welfare' when they'll quite happily sit on the skin of a dead animal or wear dead animal skin on their feet. And the health merits are more fad diet than anything scientifically provable.
I understand why people eat meat... it tastes nice.
I also understand that in 50 years, almost nobody will be eating meat, as it is totally unsustainable as a food source - for a 10 billion worldwide population.
For those young enough to be alive then, wake up and smell the coffee*, kill as much as you like now (if that's your thing - happens not to be mine), it ain't going to last!
I also understand that in 50 years, almost nobody will be eating meat, as it is totally unsustainable as a food source - for a 10 billion worldwide population.
For those young enough to be alive then, wake up and smell the coffee*, kill as much as you like now (if that's your thing - happens not to be mine), it ain't going to last!
- Coffee will still be synthetically available in 2066, apparently, so you can still wake up and smell it.
Trabi601 said:
All seems very pointless, then. A bit Daily Mail, too - where everything has a link to cancer, allegedly.
I just can't rationalise anyone discussing the 'positive impact on animal welfare' when they'll quite happily sit on the skin of a dead animal or wear dead animal skin on their feet. And the health merits are more fad diet than anything scientifically provable.
With respect, you are making uninformed and therefore illogical statements. Do the reading and we can have a debate. Otherwise the best we will get to is agreeing to disagree. Which is fine by me because I'm not attempting to change anyone, simply ensuring the usual 'vegan' debate is slightly better informed, even if the majority wish to continue to disbelieve the facts. I just can't rationalise anyone discussing the 'positive impact on animal welfare' when they'll quite happily sit on the skin of a dead animal or wear dead animal skin on their feet. And the health merits are more fad diet than anything scientifically provable.
Phil. said:
Trabi601 said:
All seems very pointless, then. A bit Daily Mail, too - where everything has a link to cancer, allegedly.
I just can't rationalise anyone discussing the 'positive impact on animal welfare' when they'll quite happily sit on the skin of a dead animal or wear dead animal skin on their feet. And the health merits are more fad diet than anything scientifically provable.
With respect, you are making uninformed and therefore illogical statements. Do the reading and we can have a debate. Otherwise the best we will get to is agreeing to disagree. Which is fine by me because I'm not attempting to change anyone, simply ensuring the usual 'vegan' debate is slightly better informed, even if the majority wish to continue to disbelieve the facts. I just can't rationalise anyone discussing the 'positive impact on animal welfare' when they'll quite happily sit on the skin of a dead animal or wear dead animal skin on their feet. And the health merits are more fad diet than anything scientifically provable.
tters at PETA about a healthy diet.Hipster
Phil. said:
With respect, you are making uninformed and therefore illogical statements. Do the reading and we can have a debate. Otherwise the best we will get to is agreeing to disagree. Which is fine by me because I'm not attempting to change anyone, simply ensuring the usual 'vegan' debate is slightly better informed, even if the majority wish to continue to disbelieve the facts.
Uninformed, or just not a believer in cult / fad diet trends and fake science?Almost every link posted here to the 'benefits' of meat free living have been from people pushing an agenda / doing it for profit / claiming some pretty weird and very obviously fake science.
Trabi601 said:
Phil. said:
With respect, you are making uninformed and therefore illogical statements. Do the reading and we can have a debate. Otherwise the best we will get to is agreeing to disagree. Which is fine by me because I'm not attempting to change anyone, simply ensuring the usual 'vegan' debate is slightly better informed, even if the majority wish to continue to disbelieve the facts.
Uninformed, or just not a believer in cult / fad diet trends and fake science?Almost every link posted here to the 'benefits' of meat free living have been from people pushing an agenda / doing it for profit / claiming some pretty weird and very obviously fake science.
Willy Nilly said:
Antibiotics have a withdrawal period. Used intrammaryly (I can even begin to spell that), ie the product is literally squirted using it's plastic syringe into the individual teat is in the region of 9 milkings. When animal is injected with it, the meat can't go into the human food chain for about 3 months if my memory serves. Records are kept of every animal treated, when they were treated, with what, the withdrawal period, when the milk can go into the tank and or the animal to slaughter. The milk is tested every day, if they find any antibiotics in the tank and it contaminates a batch at the dairy the farmer is for the high jump. BIG FINE! Accidents certainly happen, and it's normal that you ring up the dairy to say you think you've put antibioics in the tank, they will then come and test it before they collect it. If it is clear, the collect it, if not it goes in the slurry pit.
Antibiotic resistant bugs are just as much of a problem for farmers as the general public at large.
I still don't buy the growth hormone thing. At what dose level has it been proven to cause cancer and which cancer has it been proven to cause? Everything grows and needs hormones.
Couple of points. Antibiotic resistant bugs are just as much of a problem for farmers as the general public at large.
I still don't buy the growth hormone thing. At what dose level has it been proven to cause cancer and which cancer has it been proven to cause? Everything grows and needs hormones.
The farming industry in the UK uses around 3x the amount of antibiotics than humans per year. The consumption of meat or dairy treated with antibiotics is a major factor in hospitals being able to successfully treat 'super bugs', something my dad eventually succumbed to,
I'll have a look over the weekend and aim to post up a link to research linking cancers to dairy and egg products. Feel free to do some reasearch. Beware though, it may not fit with your farming beliefs.
Phil. said:
I agree there is no alternative if you decide to eat mass produced eggs and dairy, both of which are unnecessary in a balanced diet. There is also research that demonstrates the negative effect of eggs and dairy on the human health, particularly cancers. Both eggs and dairy contain massive amounts of growth hormones which are designed to accelerate cell growth, the basis for cancer. It's all out there in the public domain for anyone interested.
I don't see why mass produced eggs or dairy would be any different to having a couple of hens clucking around the back garden and a house cow. We do have a parasitic relationship with the dairy cow (I think there are ants that farm some other insects, so it's not just a human thing), but loads of animals and birds eat other animals and birds eggs.Interestingly, if potatoes were a new kid on the vegetable block, they would never get approval to go into the human food chain because they are poisonous until the are cooked. I am also pretty sure that there are no naturally occuring spuds, they are human invention, just like maize/corn and wheat. Do you see any man made species of animal specifically developed to become human food? cow has always been a cow, same with pigs, sheep and chickens. Sure they have bee selectively bred, but they are still the same as they ever were.
Also, I assume you only drink water. If the human body was intended to drink tea, coffee, wine, beer, fizzy pop or whatever then surely it would rain down from the sky and flow in rivers?
The reason we are number one species, can do all sorts of clever things is that we are very adaptable and have this massive brain which helps us eat all sorts of things, some of which are good for us, some of which are bad.
I'm off out for fish and chips.
Tailgater said:
And yet, you still chose to believe the bullstters at PETA about a healthy diet.
Hipster
I have not mentioned PETA on this thread or responded to your juvenile taunts about PETA. For the record I'm not a fan of PETA, don't follow or support them. tters at PETA about a healthy diet.Hipster
Tosser.
Edited by Phil. on Saturday 3rd September 19:38
Phil. said:
Willy Nilly said:
Antibiotics have a withdrawal period. Used intrammaryly (I can even begin to spell that), ie the product is literally squirted using it's plastic syringe into the individual teat is in the region of 9 milkings. When animal is injected with it, the meat can't go into the human food chain for about 3 months if my memory serves. Records are kept of every animal treated, when they were treated, with what, the withdrawal period, when the milk can go into the tank and or the animal to slaughter. The milk is tested every day, if they find any antibiotics in the tank and it contaminates a batch at the dairy the farmer is for the high jump. BIG FINE! Accidents certainly happen, and it's normal that you ring up the dairy to say you think you've put antibioics in the tank, they will then come and test it before they collect it. If it is clear, the collect it, if not it goes in the slurry pit.
Antibiotic resistant bugs are just as much of a problem for farmers as the general public at large.
I still don't buy the growth hormone thing. At what dose level has it been proven to cause cancer and which cancer has it been proven to cause? Everything grows and needs hormones.
Couple of points. Antibiotic resistant bugs are just as much of a problem for farmers as the general public at large.
I still don't buy the growth hormone thing. At what dose level has it been proven to cause cancer and which cancer has it been proven to cause? Everything grows and needs hormones.
The farming industry in the UK uses around 3x the amount of antibiotics than humans per year. The consumption of meat or dairy treated with antibiotics is a major factor in hospitals being able to successfully treat 'super bugs', something my dad eventually succumbed to,
I'll have a look over the weekend and aim to post up a link to research linking cancers to dairy and egg products. Feel free to do some reasearch. Beware though, it may not fit with your farming beliefs.
Some light reading and then may be we can have a more informed debate:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/healthyeat...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/healthyeat...
Phil. said:
Some light reading and then may be we can have a more informed debate:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/healthyeat...
She should be ashamed of herself - using her title to push a book full of dodgy science for profit.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/healthyeat...
Phil. said:
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-...
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-...
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/dieta...
All those those advise moderation, not cutting out completely.https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-...
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/dieta...
Phil. said:
Trabi601 said:
She should be ashamed of herself - using her title to push a book full of dodgy science for profit.
The idiots are back........ So little point in continuing this discussion, it's probably run its course for now. Read the bold parts son...Fitmole.org said:
When I ask them why they decided to become a vegetarian/vegan, they give me reasons like “Oh, it makes me feel good,” “Because meat is bad for your health,” or “I don’t want to harm animals.” Whenever I hear these reasons, I just put on my best “nod and pretend to agree with you” face.
I get it. You don’t like it when the heads of baby cows and pigs are chopped off, but do you really think eating that tofu burger is saving lives.
Fruits, vegetables, and grains are a staple among vegetarian diets, but did you know that millions of animals die just so you can enjoy that piece of bread? Eating foods like grains means destroying ecosystems and all of its inhabitants. It means killing all the little animals, birds, bugs, and microorganisms that live among the fields.
Do you know how many little animals and microorganisms die when farmers use machines to plow through wheat fields? The answer is a lot more than 1 cow.
As cheesy as it sounds, everything in life requires sacrifice. Animals are killed to get meat and ecosystems are destroyed to get grains. So the next time I’m eating a steak, don’t you dare judge me for killing a cow.
2) There is absolutely zero scientific proof showing that going vegetarian is healthy
When I want to believe something, I need proof. I need definite scientific proof.
And no, proof doesn’t mean reading a quote in Shape or MensHealth magazine. In order to convince me about anything I need to see a scientific study that shows causation not correlation.
For example, eating less food will make you loss weight. This is a stone cold fact that will remain true no matter what.
However, there is absolutely ZERO proof showing that going vegetarian will decrease your risk of heart disease, cancer, or whatever nasty stuff you can think of.
The only thing we have are thousands of studies showing a correlation between an increased risk of disease and an increase in meat consumption. We have studies that conclude that eating meat “may increase” your risk of heart disease, but this doesn’t mean crap. It’s inconclusive and doesn’t prove anything. Saying that your risk of heart disease “may increase” from eating red meat is like saying you “may” be able to breath fire if you eat enough jalapenos.
And yes, before you get all crazy on me, I have read the China Study a.k.a the vegetarian’s wet dream. For those who don’t know, the China Study was a big study conducted by Dr. Campbell who basically concluded that meat is killer.
While the China Study garnered a ton of media attention a couple years ago, it is also an incredibly flawed study despite it’s massive scale. But talking about all the flaws in the China Study is beyond the scope of this article, so let me turn you over to a great article written by Denise Minger of Raw Food SOS. She did an amazing job in analyzing the China Study and basically debunked every single aspect of it.
People need to stop believing the mainstream media, and need to start looking at the actual research and facts.
I know this is a bit obvious, but being a vegetarian means that you don’t get to eat meat. EVER. That means no steak, bacon, horse, or BBQ ribs. The closest thing you’ll ever get to meat is some glued together crap made of wheat and soy.
And please, don’t tell me that your veggie burger tastes better than my double bacon cheeseburger, okay? Don’t tell me “Oh, but it tastes just like the real thing.” No it doesn’t, you rationalizing crazy person. It doesn’t matter how hard you try, a piece of tofu will never taste as good as a greasy piece of beef.
So if vegetarians are so concerned about their health, then why do they opt for highly processed foods likes breads and cereals that are not found in nature as opposed to real animal meat which has been around since…. forever. It makes no freakin sense.
This past summer, I took a Biology 101 class at a community college to fulfill some general education requirements for my degree. While the class was a complete waste of my time and I pretty much bull-stted my way through it, I did learn something quite interesting.
I learned about the food web, which is basically description of “who eats who” in the environment.
It goes something like this:
fox eats rabbit => fox poops into the soil => the living soil then absorbs the poop(which includes the rabbit) => fruit and vegetable plants absorb that exact same soil to grow => humans eat those same fruits and vegetables
This process happens EVERYWHERE in nature.
So even if you’re a vegetarian, you’re technically eating dead animals, albeit in a more indirect liquid form. But last time I checked, vegetarians were all about saving lives no matter what.
Despite everything you’ve heard, vegetarians are NOT the health conscious animal saving saints that they’re made out to be.
Instead, vegetarians:
Support the destruction of ecosystems to obtain their food
Kill millions of small animals, bugs, and microorganisms
Aren’t saving their health since there’s absolutely zero scientific proof showing that meat is bad for you
Are actually eating meat without knowing it
Are simply misinformed about every aspect of the vegetarian lifestyle
So if you’re a vegetarian, then hopefully I’ve done my job to piss you off beyond belief, and if I converted you, then that’s cool too.
Once again, the only reason why you should be a vegetarian is for religious reasons or because you have a some chronic disease that doesn’t allow you to eat meat.[/b]But even if you’re a vegetarian for religious reasons, you might want to start questioning the logic behind your beliefs, just saying.
Alright guys, be sure to share this article with every single vegetarian you know, and to close out this article I have 3 parting words:
fk YOU PETA
I get it. You don’t like it when the heads of baby cows and pigs are chopped off, but do you really think eating that tofu burger is saving lives.
Fruits, vegetables, and grains are a staple among vegetarian diets, but did you know that millions of animals die just so you can enjoy that piece of bread? Eating foods like grains means destroying ecosystems and all of its inhabitants. It means killing all the little animals, birds, bugs, and microorganisms that live among the fields.
Do you know how many little animals and microorganisms die when farmers use machines to plow through wheat fields? The answer is a lot more than 1 cow.
As cheesy as it sounds, everything in life requires sacrifice. Animals are killed to get meat and ecosystems are destroyed to get grains. So the next time I’m eating a steak, don’t you dare judge me for killing a cow.
2) There is absolutely zero scientific proof showing that going vegetarian is healthy
When I want to believe something, I need proof. I need definite scientific proof.
And no, proof doesn’t mean reading a quote in Shape or MensHealth magazine. In order to convince me about anything I need to see a scientific study that shows causation not correlation.
For example, eating less food will make you loss weight. This is a stone cold fact that will remain true no matter what.
However, there is absolutely ZERO proof showing that going vegetarian will decrease your risk of heart disease, cancer, or whatever nasty stuff you can think of.
The only thing we have are thousands of studies showing a correlation between an increased risk of disease and an increase in meat consumption. We have studies that conclude that eating meat “may increase” your risk of heart disease, but this doesn’t mean crap. It’s inconclusive and doesn’t prove anything. Saying that your risk of heart disease “may increase” from eating red meat is like saying you “may” be able to breath fire if you eat enough jalapenos.
And yes, before you get all crazy on me, I have read the China Study a.k.a the vegetarian’s wet dream. For those who don’t know, the China Study was a big study conducted by Dr. Campbell who basically concluded that meat is killer.
While the China Study garnered a ton of media attention a couple years ago, it is also an incredibly flawed study despite it’s massive scale. But talking about all the flaws in the China Study is beyond the scope of this article, so let me turn you over to a great article written by Denise Minger of Raw Food SOS. She did an amazing job in analyzing the China Study and basically debunked every single aspect of it.
People need to stop believing the mainstream media, and need to start looking at the actual research and facts.
I know this is a bit obvious, but being a vegetarian means that you don’t get to eat meat. EVER. That means no steak, bacon, horse, or BBQ ribs. The closest thing you’ll ever get to meat is some glued together crap made of wheat and soy.
And please, don’t tell me that your veggie burger tastes better than my double bacon cheeseburger, okay? Don’t tell me “Oh, but it tastes just like the real thing.” No it doesn’t, you rationalizing crazy person. It doesn’t matter how hard you try, a piece of tofu will never taste as good as a greasy piece of beef.
So if vegetarians are so concerned about their health, then why do they opt for highly processed foods likes breads and cereals that are not found in nature as opposed to real animal meat which has been around since…. forever. It makes no freakin sense.
This past summer, I took a Biology 101 class at a community college to fulfill some general education requirements for my degree. While the class was a complete waste of my time and I pretty much bull-s
tted my way through it, I did learn something quite interesting.I learned about the food web, which is basically description of “who eats who” in the environment.
It goes something like this:
fox eats rabbit => fox poops into the soil => the living soil then absorbs the poop(which includes the rabbit) => fruit and vegetable plants absorb that exact same soil to grow => humans eat those same fruits and vegetables
This process happens EVERYWHERE in nature.
So even if you’re a vegetarian, you’re technically eating dead animals, albeit in a more indirect liquid form. But last time I checked, vegetarians were all about saving lives no matter what.
Despite everything you’ve heard, vegetarians are NOT the health conscious animal saving saints that they’re made out to be.
Instead, vegetarians:
Support the destruction of ecosystems to obtain their food
Kill millions of small animals, bugs, and microorganisms
Aren’t saving their health since there’s absolutely zero scientific proof showing that meat is bad for you
Are actually eating meat without knowing it
Are simply misinformed about every aspect of the vegetarian lifestyle
So if you’re a vegetarian, then hopefully I’ve done my job to piss you off beyond belief, and if I converted you, then that’s cool too.
Once again, the only reason why you should be a vegetarian is for religious reasons or because you have a some chronic disease that doesn’t allow you to eat meat.[/b]But even if you’re a vegetarian for religious reasons, you might want to start questioning the logic behind your beliefs, just saying.
Alright guys, be sure to share this article with every single vegetarian you know, and to close out this article I have 3 parting words:
f
k YOU PETAGassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff