Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
NDA said:
Ken_Code said:
It’s why employers and universities rightly discount the grades of pupils from these schools.
Apologies if this is too complex a chain of reasoning for you to follow.
I've been responsible for the hiring of many people over the years - one of my previous firms employed 50,000 globally. I have never heard of any employer 'discounting' the grades of privately educated candidates. Are these employers accepting the degree qualifications, but somehow discounting A Level gained at private schools?Apologies if this is too complex a chain of reasoning for you to follow.
Apologies if this is too nuanced for you to grasp.
I have seen, once, a box you had to tick on an application form that asked if you had received a private education, but it was optional to answer, and only went towards company ED&I statistics. It was not used as a hiring decision.
Unless you are hiring a lot of people directly from school, GCSE/A-Level grades are irrelevant anyway. The last qualification is usually the one that is looked at, such as the degree or professional qualification, then once you get a couple of jobs deep on your CV, it becomes all about your experience, very few people will be looking at school results.
I received a bunch of CV's yesterday from HR, for a role we are advertising for, and I think 10 out of 12 of them didn't even contain qualifications of any sort. Just career history, skills, and experience.
My view on education, qualifications, and career is one of replacement. Once you attain the next thing, it replaces the last. This is why private education and tutoring really does help:
If you were going to totally flop at school, then private education (along with your own efforts) can help get you decent GCSE grades, which means you then move on to A Levels, and then the A levels replace the GCSE's as the relevant thing, the A levels then help you get into university, then once you get a degree, it helps you get a job, then job then replaces the degree... and so on.
Private education can set in motion a chain of events that leads to success. Which was exactly what happened in my case. If I had gone to local secondary school, I would have flopped at exams, not gone to university, and the chain of life events would have been very different IMO.
Mont Blanc said:
NDA said:
Ken_Code said:
It’s why employers and universities rightly discount the grades of pupils from these schools.
Apologies if this is too complex a chain of reasoning for you to follow.
I've been responsible for the hiring of many people over the years - one of my previous firms employed 50,000 globally. I have never heard of any employer 'discounting' the grades of privately educated candidates. Are these employers accepting the degree qualifications, but somehow discounting A Level gained at private schools?Apologies if this is too complex a chain of reasoning for you to follow.
Apologies if this is too nuanced for you to grasp.
No signs of any discounting at the job recruitment stage for degree level jobs as all applicants are close to graduating or will have graduated by then with more than just A-levels to go on.
Mont Blanc said:
NDA said:
Ken_Code said:
It’s why employers and universities rightly discount the grades of pupils from these schools.
Apologies if this is too complex a chain of reasoning for you to follow.
I've been responsible for the hiring of many people over the years - one of my previous firms employed 50,000 globally. I have never heard of any employer 'discounting' the grades of privately educated candidates. Are these employers accepting the degree qualifications, but somehow discounting A Level gained at private schools?Apologies if this is too complex a chain of reasoning for you to follow.
Apologies if this is too nuanced for you to grasp.
I have seen, once, a box you had to tick on an application form that asked if you had received a private education, but it was optional to answer, and only went towards company ED&I statistics. It was not used as a hiring decision.
Unless you are hiring a lot of people directly from school, GCSE/A-Level grades are irrelevant anyway. The last qualification is usually the one that is looked at, such as the degree or professional qualification, then once you get a couple of jobs deep on your CV, it becomes all about your experience, very few people will be looking at school results.
I received a bunch of CV's yesterday from HR, for a role we are advertising for, and I think 10 out of 12 of them didn't even contain qualifications of any sort. Just career history, skills, and experience.
My view on education, qualifications, and career is one of replacement. Once you attain the next thing, it replaces the last. This is why private education and tutoring really does help:
If you were going to totally flop at school, then private education (along with your own efforts) can help get you decent GCSE grades, which means you then move on to A Levels, and then the A levels replace the GCSE's as the relevant thing, the A levels then help you get into university, then once you get a degree, it helps you get a job, then job then replaces the degree... and so on.
Private education can set in motion a chain of events that leads to success. Which was exactly what happened in my case. If I had gone to local secondary school, I would have flopped at exams, not gone to university, and the chain of life events would have been very different IMO.
There is a well worn path in my area of London that children go private until A Levels, then, because the large local state school has great results theymove the kids there. I have a number of freinds who have done so in the last 5 years in part because they dont want their children to be stigmatised in the eyes of universities as having been privately educated. Probs save a bit of money too.
lardybiker said:
There is a well worn path in my area of London that children go private until A Levels, then, because the large local state school has great results theymove the kids there. I have a number of freinds who have done so in the last 5 years in part because they dont want their children to be stigmatised in the eyes of universities as having been privately educated. Probs save a bit of money too.
Based on application/admissions data, independent school pupils who move to a state sixth form are a third more likely to get accepted into Cambridge, so if thats in anyone's mind, a move to a good state sixth-form if one exists nearby e.g. Hills Road, is an excellent idea.lardybiker said:
Anyone applying for a job in law is going to get asked for details about early education (state or public) their parents employment and educational background. Pretty sure you would be asked for your parents status at the point you were 14 yo. Law Society requirement innit. Slaughter and May specifically employ graduates on this basis.
Genuinely intrigued. It is a Law Society requirement that an employer needs to know parents employment and education background ?On a tangential point about state vs private, friend’s son recently left law school (private educated)….was told being a white, male and privately educated was the “win treble”….so many of the older employees at major law firms tick these boxes that to show diversity across all employees they are having to aggressively select outside this cohort. You can do something about the educational background but the other two are more of an issue…..and right now apparently more important.
One interesting thing I have thought about and wonder if anyone else has, and is a big reason we are pushing ahead with private is the personality type of myself and my wife showing in our young kid. We were both fairly bright in early years but easily led astray - we both have an almost identical track record of this (though she did get a degree from somewhere OK), class clown behaviour, mixing with the wrong kids, getting up to no good etc. My wife was diagnosed with ADHD and given whatever drugs they give, that was 25 years ago, so was probably fairly disruptive for her.
I’ve never had any diagnosis of anything but suspect there’s similar themes there. People are much more vocal about how these things present in adults and I can identify with a lot of it.
I’m already noticing in my nearly 4 year old that he will try and coerce the other children at parties etc into doing things they shouldn’t be (nothing too bad, but you know, being little terrors and generally getting carried away - the other children are mostly not like this) - he’s showing signs already of having inherited a fair bit of what we had/have. For me it resulted in barely getting any GSCE’s and being asked to leave 6th form, my wife was asked to leave one private school and went to a grammar (went back to the private for a levels mind you) - arguably for whatever reasons we didn’t have the most attentive parents which was a factor, but I’m absolutely sure a more ‘positive’ environment would have got a lot more out of me, and is part of the reason I think my son will do better in that sort place. The state system has no room for managing that sort of personality or energy in a positive way I would guess and is what I felt. Certainly not academically, sporting wise was my only outlet, and even that was nothing vs what the kids up the road in the private got.
So, has anyone else seen their personalities in their children and didn’t influence your decision?
I’ve never had any diagnosis of anything but suspect there’s similar themes there. People are much more vocal about how these things present in adults and I can identify with a lot of it.
I’m already noticing in my nearly 4 year old that he will try and coerce the other children at parties etc into doing things they shouldn’t be (nothing too bad, but you know, being little terrors and generally getting carried away - the other children are mostly not like this) - he’s showing signs already of having inherited a fair bit of what we had/have. For me it resulted in barely getting any GSCE’s and being asked to leave 6th form, my wife was asked to leave one private school and went to a grammar (went back to the private for a levels mind you) - arguably for whatever reasons we didn’t have the most attentive parents which was a factor, but I’m absolutely sure a more ‘positive’ environment would have got a lot more out of me, and is part of the reason I think my son will do better in that sort place. The state system has no room for managing that sort of personality or energy in a positive way I would guess and is what I felt. Certainly not academically, sporting wise was my only outlet, and even that was nothing vs what the kids up the road in the private got.
So, has anyone else seen their personalities in their children and didn’t influence your decision?
People can get precious and myopic about their own kids. Selecting a good school is something we all try and do, whether that is moving house, paying private, etc. Private tuition is another route to try and help our kids. You can call it maximising potential or you can call it making kids appear brighter, but it is the same thing really. Good schooling = better grades. Good grades = a good start in life. Private schools then add benefits such as broader subject choice and intangibles such as a different social circle, networks that will give better opportunities in future, social confidence, etc. I have seen it directly as a parent as all mine went through the private system as have many of my friends' kids. One set of friends joke about their kid ending up at the university where the kids are known in the city as the 'clotted creams' (rich and thick). Not all kids are a future Einstein, whether they get the opportunity to show it in private school or not.
Edited by C4ME on Saturday 11th May 09:57
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/private-school-...
Policy having an effect already. Where do the 2.7% go? Home schooling, abroad or state sector?
Policy having an effect already. Where do the 2.7% go? Home schooling, abroad or state sector?
turbobloke said:
lardybiker said:
There is a well worn path in my area of London that children go private until A Levels, then, because the large local state school has great results theymove the kids there. I have a number of freinds who have done so in the last 5 years in part because they dont want their children to be stigmatised in the eyes of universities as having been privately educated. Probs save a bit of money too.
Based on application/admissions data, independent school pupils who move to a state sixth form are a third more likely to get accepted into Cambridge, so if thats in anyone's mind, a move to a good state sixth-form if one exists nearby e.g. Hills Road, is an excellent idea.They're obviously intelligent but (aside from the sport , music and access to facilities) the things they got from private education were the structure, discipline, critical thinking and work ethic which have carried them through. It doesn't matter how inherently smart you are if you don't know how to apply it.
Some of that also came from home though (and it has to). I could never get my head around people who seem to expect schools to bring their kids up for them as well as educate them
That said, there are plenty of kids that come out of private schools that end up in a different place, it's not a guarantee of anything. You can send your kids down the runway, but ultimately its going to be down to them whether they can take off and fly.
Cheib said:
lardybiker said:
Anyone applying for a job in law is going to get asked for details about early education (state or public) their parents employment and educational background. Pretty sure you would be asked for your parents status at the point you were 14 yo. Law Society requirement innit. Slaughter and May specifically employ graduates on this basis.
Genuinely intrigued. It is a Law Society requirement that an employer needs to know parents employment and education background ?On a tangential point about state vs private, friend’s son recently left law school (private educated)….was told being a white, male and privately educated was the “win treble”….so many of the older employees at major law firms tick these boxes that to show diversity across all employees they are having to aggressively select outside this cohort. You can do something about the educational background but the other two are more of an issue…..and right now apparently more important.
A nephew and a friends daughter have both been employed by city law firms in the last couple of years whom would not have been previously. This is acknowledged by friends who have spent 25 years in those very firms.
As for sending kids to Private schools... I have 3, none of them go, our choice as parents. We can easily afford to do so. 2 of my children have ASD (autism) ADHD and Dyslexia. Friends with children who have ADHD and send them to Private Schools cannot believe the level of intervention our children receive to help them with the mental health aspects of their personalities (this has only come about through our pushing i will admit). Other friends have removed their children from Private Schools (to state) after being told the school could not accept them because they were to disruptive. I suppose this is a choice the school can make.
There is a post above somewhere which states that by and large Private education is to bring average children up to levels beyond their peers in state school. I agree with this. At the same time, why wouldnt you if its available, so carry on.
Bursaries. a family member is a head at a well known Private School just outside london. They use bursaries as a bit of a marketing tool. You've got 2 in the school already? How about a bursary for number 3? Thinking of sending your child here? Ah, they are a national level swimmer or super bright, take 20 per cent off sir. The charitable aspect of bursaries is overplayed in my eyes. If it was a truly charitable aim then it would surely be offering feeless entry to those kids who were in the worst positions. This is never going to happen.
Finally. One thing ive never got my head around is the unfairness of offering such starkly differing levels of education to kids who broadly have the same potential. Begs the question. If the state offered an education to the same level as private education, would you swap? I fear the answer for many would be no. Unfortunately I think i know why too.
Mr Penguin said:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/private-school-...
Policy having an effect already. Where do the 2.7% go? Home schooling, abroad or state sector?
State school rolls have been falling. I presume they will be buying a house next to the state school of their choice. At the same time, Private School fees have been rising above inflation for some time.Policy having an effect already. Where do the 2.7% go? Home schooling, abroad or state sector?
okgo said:
One interesting thing I have thought about and wonder if anyone else has, and is a big reason we are pushing ahead with private is the personality type of myself and my wife showing in our young kid. We were both fairly bright in early years but easily led astray - we both have an almost identical track record of this (though she did get a degree from somewhere OK), class clown behaviour, mixing with the wrong kids, getting up to no good etc. My wife was diagnosed with ADHD and given whatever drugs they give, that was 25 years ago, so was probably fairly disruptive for her.
I’ve never had any diagnosis of anything but suspect there’s similar themes there. People are much more vocal about how these things present in adults and I can identify with a lot of it.
I’m already noticing in my nearly 4 year old that he will try and coerce the other children at parties etc into doing things they shouldn’t be (nothing too bad, but you know, being little terrors and generally getting carried away - the other children are mostly not like this) - he’s showing signs already of having inherited a fair bit of what we had/have. For me it resulted in barely getting any GSCE’s and being asked to leave 6th form, my wife was asked to leave one private school and went to a grammar (went back to the private for a levels mind you) - arguably for whatever reasons we didn’t have the most attentive parents which was a factor, but I’m absolutely sure a more ‘positive’ environment would have got a lot more out of me, and is part of the reason I think my son will do better in that sort place. The state system has no room for managing that sort of personality or energy in a positive way I would guess and is what I felt. Certainly not academically, sporting wise was my only outlet, and even that was nothing vs what the kids up the road in the private got.
So, has anyone else seen their personalities in their children and didn’t influence your decision?
YES.I’ve never had any diagnosis of anything but suspect there’s similar themes there. People are much more vocal about how these things present in adults and I can identify with a lot of it.
I’m already noticing in my nearly 4 year old that he will try and coerce the other children at parties etc into doing things they shouldn’t be (nothing too bad, but you know, being little terrors and generally getting carried away - the other children are mostly not like this) - he’s showing signs already of having inherited a fair bit of what we had/have. For me it resulted in barely getting any GSCE’s and being asked to leave 6th form, my wife was asked to leave one private school and went to a grammar (went back to the private for a levels mind you) - arguably for whatever reasons we didn’t have the most attentive parents which was a factor, but I’m absolutely sure a more ‘positive’ environment would have got a lot more out of me, and is part of the reason I think my son will do better in that sort place. The state system has no room for managing that sort of personality or energy in a positive way I would guess and is what I felt. Certainly not academically, sporting wise was my only outlet, and even that was nothing vs what the kids up the road in the private got.
So, has anyone else seen their personalities in their children and didn’t influence your decision?
Get on the process of assessment when it convenient. State it takes ages. Private a lot less but expensive for ASD. Ensuring correct treatment of your children at school (unfortunately) relies a lot on diagnosis. Private or State, when your kids a dicking around because thy cant sit still or they can do the work in a flash and are bored, insular and wont play with others etc Unless they are a specialist school, the patience for this type of behaviour is lower than is state.
DM me if you need any help around the subject.
lardybiker said:
There is a well worn path in my area of London that children go private until A Levels, then, because the large local state school has great results theymove the kids there. I have a number of freinds who have done so in the last 5 years in part because they dont want their children to be stigmatised in the eyes of universities as having been privately educated. Probs save a bit of money too.
Interesting. It's come up numerous times in this thread that a major reason people go private is because state schools are apparently quite s
t. Yet it turns out that when kids leave the sixth form in those same state schools, and whose intake will be largely made up of kids staying on after their GCSEs, they end up with results so good that kids from local private schools go there in preference to staying where they were.Almost like the state schools aren't really so bad after all.
okgo said:
One interesting thing I have thought about and wonder if anyone else has, and is a big reason we are pushing ahead with private is the personality type of myself and my wife showing in our young kid. We were both fairly bright in early years but easily led astray - we both have an almost identical track record of this (though she did get a degree from somewhere OK), class clown behaviour, mixing with the wrong kids, getting up to no good etc. My wife was diagnosed with ADHD and given whatever drugs they give, that was 25 years ago, so was probably fairly disruptive for her.
I’ve never had any diagnosis of anything but suspect there’s similar themes there. People are much more vocal about how these things present in adults and I can identify with a lot of it.
I’m already noticing in my nearly 4 year old that he will try and coerce the other children at parties etc into doing things they shouldn’t be (nothing too bad, but you know, being little terrors and generally getting carried away - the other children are mostly not like this) - he’s showing signs already of having inherited a fair bit of what we had/have. For me it resulted in barely getting any GSCE’s and being asked to leave 6th form, my wife was asked to leave one private school and went to a grammar (went back to the private for a levels mind you) - arguably for whatever reasons we didn’t have the most attentive parents which was a factor, but I’m absolutely sure a more ‘positive’ environment would have got a lot more out of me, and is part of the reason I think my son will do better in that sort place. The state system has no room for managing that sort of personality or energy in a positive way I would guess and is what I felt. Certainly not academically, sporting wise was my only outlet, and even that was nothing vs what the kids up the road in the private got.
So, has anyone else seen their personalities in their children and didn’t influence your decision?
Yes, not exactly the same situation as yours but very similar. It was a big financial stretch for us but absolutely the right decision and both daughters now enjoying very successful careers. I’ve never had any diagnosis of anything but suspect there’s similar themes there. People are much more vocal about how these things present in adults and I can identify with a lot of it.
I’m already noticing in my nearly 4 year old that he will try and coerce the other children at parties etc into doing things they shouldn’t be (nothing too bad, but you know, being little terrors and generally getting carried away - the other children are mostly not like this) - he’s showing signs already of having inherited a fair bit of what we had/have. For me it resulted in barely getting any GSCE’s and being asked to leave 6th form, my wife was asked to leave one private school and went to a grammar (went back to the private for a levels mind you) - arguably for whatever reasons we didn’t have the most attentive parents which was a factor, but I’m absolutely sure a more ‘positive’ environment would have got a lot more out of me, and is part of the reason I think my son will do better in that sort place. The state system has no room for managing that sort of personality or energy in a positive way I would guess and is what I felt. Certainly not academically, sporting wise was my only outlet, and even that was nothing vs what the kids up the road in the private got.
So, has anyone else seen their personalities in their children and didn’t influence your decision?
mikey_b said:
Interesting. It's come up numerous times in this thread that a major reason people go private is because state schools are apparently quite st. Yet it turns out that when kids leave the sixth form in those same state schools, and whose intake will be largely made up of kids staying on after their GCSEs, they end up with results so good that kids from local private schools go there in preference to staying where they were.
Almost like the state schools aren't really so bad after all.
A long time ago for me now but the experience of A levels and the first five years in the state sector is very different.t. Yet it turns out that when kids leave the sixth form in those same state schools, and whose intake will be largely made up of kids staying on after their GCSEs, they end up with results so good that kids from local private schools go there in preference to staying where they were.Almost like the state schools aren't really so bad after all.
For starters you shed all the pupils who didn't want to be there and tended to act up as a result. Secondly A levels are far more academically vigorous and those more suited to them can thrive and finally class sizes at A level can be much lower in the state sector, in the 12-20 range.
mikey_b said:
lardybiker said:
There is a well worn path in my area of London that children go private until A Levels, then, because the large local state school has great results theymove the kids there. I have a number of freinds who have done so in the last 5 years in part because they dont want their children to be stigmatised in the eyes of universities as having been privately educated. Probs save a bit of money too.
Interesting. It's come up numerous times in this thread that a major reason people go private is because state schools are apparently quite st. Yet it turns out that when kids leave the sixth form in those same state schools, and whose intake will be largely made up of kids staying on after their GCSEs, they end up with results so good that kids from local private schools go there in preference to staying where they were.Almost like the state schools aren't really so bad after all.
One family we know didnt get their daughter in and were in disbelief that those who've attended to GCSE would be first in the queue. Those who live with privilege often times identify equality as oppression and ting.
JagLover said:
mikey_b said:
Interesting. It's come up numerous times in this thread that a major reason people go private is because state schools are apparently quite st. Yet it turns out that when kids leave the sixth form in those same state schools, and whose intake will be largely made up of kids staying on after their GCSEs, they end up with results so good that kids from local private schools go there in preference to staying where they were.
Almost like the state schools aren't really so bad after all.
A long time ago for me now but the experience of A levels and the first five years in the state sector is very different.t. Yet it turns out that when kids leave the sixth form in those same state schools, and whose intake will be largely made up of kids staying on after their GCSEs, they end up with results so good that kids from local private schools go there in preference to staying where they were.Almost like the state schools aren't really so bad after all.
For starters you shed all the pupils who didn't want to be there and tended to act up as a result. Secondly A levels are far more academically vigorous and those more suited to them can thrive and finally class sizes at A level can be much lower in the state sector, in the 12-20 range.
The eldest Claphamette has decided to go to Westminster for her A levels but there was a brief, glorious period where she was seriously looking at a very good 6th form college. We were quite happy with that as we'd be able to cover any weaknesses in teaching with 1:1 tuition and she's got most of the softer benefits of being at a top independent school under her belt already
I started out in the state system and then went to private school later on.
90% of the experience was the same across both. Some bright kids, some average kids, some not so bright kids. The major difference was the distractions, the disruptive kids and the scumbags who would drag you down with them, they didn't exist in the private system. Whichever category you belonged to you could focus on learning. That's worth its weight in gold for a parent and why i hope Labour aren't so stupid as to close the door on it. If you have a child who is prone to distraction, and its impossible to know if you do or not until you're there, they will fall through the cracks of the state system.
It's not such a concern if you're looking at Ascot High (or whatever their local state school is called) because those bad kids aren't in the catchment area to begin with but the rest of the country isn't like that.
I have changed my mind recently in that i used to think private school was more important as it approached exam time but now i think the opposite, private is most important to set the early learning patterns and work ethic.
90% of the experience was the same across both. Some bright kids, some average kids, some not so bright kids. The major difference was the distractions, the disruptive kids and the scumbags who would drag you down with them, they didn't exist in the private system. Whichever category you belonged to you could focus on learning. That's worth its weight in gold for a parent and why i hope Labour aren't so stupid as to close the door on it. If you have a child who is prone to distraction, and its impossible to know if you do or not until you're there, they will fall through the cracks of the state system.
It's not such a concern if you're looking at Ascot High (or whatever their local state school is called) because those bad kids aren't in the catchment area to begin with but the rest of the country isn't like that.
mikey_b said:
Interesting. It's come up numerous times in this thread that a major reason people go private is because state schools are apparently quite st. Yet it turns out that when kids leave the sixth form in those same state schools, and whose intake will be largely made up of kids staying on after their GCSEs, they end up with results so good that kids from local private schools go there in preference to staying where they were.
Almost like the state schools aren't really so bad after all.
By the time you're at 6th form that bottom 10% have gone. Everybody there wants to be there.t. Yet it turns out that when kids leave the sixth form in those same state schools, and whose intake will be largely made up of kids staying on after their GCSEs, they end up with results so good that kids from local private schools go there in preference to staying where they were.Almost like the state schools aren't really so bad after all.
I have changed my mind recently in that i used to think private school was more important as it approached exam time but now i think the opposite, private is most important to set the early learning patterns and work ethic.
Edited by CLK-GTR on Monday 13th May 13:04
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