Anyone else getting tired of it all?
Discussion
So it’s looking like more restrictions are about to be announced later today .
If they say ( unlikely I think) Xmas lockdown then no one will comply , or at least very few.
Jarvid on the Trevor Phillips show y’day stated that 90% of those that are seriously ill in hospital beds are the unvaccinated.
I can’t see why they would be lying about this ?
I also don’t see why you wouldn’t get jabbed
If they say ( unlikely I think) Xmas lockdown then no one will comply , or at least very few.
Jarvid on the Trevor Phillips show y’day stated that 90% of those that are seriously ill in hospital beds are the unvaccinated.
I can’t see why they would be lying about this ?
I also don’t see why you wouldn’t get jabbed
GT3Manthey said:
So it’s looking like more restrictions are about to be announced later today .
If they say ( unlikely I think) Xmas lockdown then no one will comply , or at least very few.
Jarvid on the Trevor Phillips show y’day stated that 90% of those that are seriously ill in hospital beds are the unvaccinated.
I can’t see why they would be lying about this ?
I also don’t see why you wouldn’t get jabbed
Try looking at the actual data (in hospital vax vs un-vaxxed) on ONS page and posted on other covid theads rather than taking dramatic headline snippets like this. If you are under 40, benefits are marginal. Almost as marginal (one could argue) as the risk of the vaccine itself.If they say ( unlikely I think) Xmas lockdown then no one will comply , or at least very few.
Jarvid on the Trevor Phillips show y’day stated that 90% of those that are seriously ill in hospital beds are the unvaccinated.
I can’t see why they would be lying about this ?
I also don’t see why you wouldn’t get jabbed
Munter said:
That's the sort of BS I'm tired of.
Literally nobody has taken that line.
The line is, and has been from the start, if too many people catch it, enough of them will need hospitalisation, that the system will not be able to cope. From the start it's been about keeping numbers low enough to run a rudimentary health service.
It's always been "if you catch it you'll probably be fine. But some of you will need help. It'd be nice if we could give that to the people who need it." And that's it. Of course if you want to sound big and clever etc people try to make it out as if we're being told something different.
The thing is what have they done to improve hospital numbers so this isn’t an issue? Nothing that I can see. Today they have Scotland an extra £200m to pay businesses to close, wales will get the same England probably ten times that that’s a huge amount of money that could have been spent building capacity in the NHS ready for this winter, next winter the one after that etc… Literally nobody has taken that line.
The line is, and has been from the start, if too many people catch it, enough of them will need hospitalisation, that the system will not be able to cope. From the start it's been about keeping numbers low enough to run a rudimentary health service.
It's always been "if you catch it you'll probably be fine. But some of you will need help. It'd be nice if we could give that to the people who need it." And that's it. Of course if you want to sound big and clever etc people try to make it out as if we're being told something different.
GT3Manthey said:
So it’s looking like more restrictions are about to be announced later today .
If they say ( unlikely I think) Xmas lockdown then no one will comply , or at least very few.
Jarvid on the Trevor Phillips show y’day stated that 90% of those that are seriously ill in hospital beds are the unvaccinated.
I can’t see why they would be lying about this ?
I also don’t see why you wouldn’t get jabbed
Oh he’s lying. They are all. Many people won’t get jabbed because of the bullsIf they say ( unlikely I think) Xmas lockdown then no one will comply , or at least very few.
Jarvid on the Trevor Phillips show y’day stated that 90% of those that are seriously ill in hospital beds are the unvaccinated.
I can’t see why they would be lying about this ?
I also don’t see why you wouldn’t get jabbed
t coercion for a start. Then many have had it, many don’t want to chance a bad reaction, many are happy to take their chances etc etc.garyhun said:
Oh he’s lying. They are all. Many people won’t get jabbed because of the bullst coercion for a start. Then many have had it, many don’t want to chance a bad reaction, many are happy to take their chances etc etc.
This. I noticed when raab was on talk radio after getting ripped a new one itv changed his response to this to 'significant proportion in hospital un-vax'd' (which could mean anything)when the presenter was saying we are lacking the data - raab couldn't answer (because he knows the data on ONS page and doesnt fit the narrative)t coercion for a start. Then many have had it, many don’t want to chance a bad reaction, many are happy to take their chances etc etc.simonw67 said:
Try looking at the actual data (in hospital vax vs un-vaxxed) on ONS page and posted on other covid theads rather than taking dramatic headline snippets like this. If you are under 40, benefits are marginal. Almost as marginal (one could argue) as the risk of the vaccine itself.
Tks . Just looked at ONS although this is jan - July this year so maybe not the current ‘ hot spot’ .
However it clearly started those unvaccinated have cash used the most deaths unless I’m missing something .
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit...
GT3Manthey said:
Tks .
Just looked at ONS although this is jan - July this year so maybe not the current ‘ hot spot’ .
However it clearly started those unvaccinated have cash used the most deaths unless I’m missing something .
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit...
While the ASMRs provide evidence that vaccinated individuals have a lower risk of dying of COVID-19 than unvaccinated individuals, they cannot be used to determine vaccine effectiveness, as the populations in each vaccine status group are likely to differ in ways other than population size and age because of the selective roll out of the vaccination programme and differences in vaccine uptake. Published studies have calculated vaccine effectiveness using observational methods, taking into account known differences in characteristics of vaccinated and unvaccinated people, and confirming the lack of bias because of remaining unobserved differences between the groups.Just looked at ONS although this is jan - July this year so maybe not the current ‘ hot spot’ .
However it clearly started those unvaccinated have cash used the most deaths unless I’m missing something .
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit...
This paragraph (above) is key: 'they cannot be used to determine effectiveness' and unfortunately this study is old: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.12... there is no breakdown of age-group. We are left to make our own conclusions.
GT3Manthey said:
If you ignore the media spin and look at figure 1 on ONS page https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit... the differences per 100k people is tiny, not sure 2 in 100k vs 3/4 in 100k is something conclusive or worth getting our knickers in a twist about.simonw67 said:
If you ignore the media spin and look at figure 1 on ONS page https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit... the differences per 100k people is tiny, not sure 2 in 100k vs 3/4 in 100k is something conclusive or worth getting our knickers in a twist about.
This taken from the actual ONS page so no media spin involved - View all data used in this article
1. Main points
In England, between 2 January and 2 July 2021, there were 51,281 deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19); 640 occurred in people who were fully vaccinated, which includes people who had been infected before they were vaccinated.
The risk of death involving COVID-19 was consistently lower for people who had received two vaccinations compared to one or no vaccination, as shown by the weekly age-standardised mortality rates (ASMRs) for deaths involving COVID-19.
Maybe all us vaccinated people are missing the point and we’re all going to end up with some longer term implications who knows but looking at ONS numbers leaves me thinking being fully jabbed was, for me & my family, the logical thing to do.
The media seem to be reporting against further restrictions. There is a lot of resistance, both from the public that are fed up with the situation now, covid fatigue if you like and politicians particularly Tories against further reductions in civil liberties.
South Africa are reporting miniscule hospitalisation and deaths and the media are struggling to come up with reasons other than Omicron isn't actually very severe at all. Yes, it spreads easily, but so does a common cold...
South Africa are reporting miniscule hospitalisation and deaths and the media are struggling to come up with reasons other than Omicron isn't actually very severe at all. Yes, it spreads easily, but so does a common cold...
GT3Manthey said:
This taken from the actual ONS page so no media spin involved -
View all data used in this article
1. Main points
In England, between 2 January and 2 July 2021, there were 51,281 deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19); 640 occurred in people who were fully vaccinated, which includes people who had been infected before they were vaccinated.
The risk of death involving COVID-19 was consistently lower for people who had received two vaccinations compared to one or no vaccination, as shown by the weekly age-standardised mortality rates (ASMRs) for deaths involving COVID-19.
Maybe all us vaccinated people are missing the point and we’re all going to end up with some longer term implications who knows but looking at ONS numbers leaves me thinking being fully jabbed was, for me & my family, the logical thing to do.
My point is that there is media spin in that page and even the ONS page said there is multiple issues to be aware of when using those numbers as measures of vaccine effectiveness. If you look at figure 2 - the more recent table, the difference appears negligible. I have no doubt for certain people, it has a benefit. For younger age groups, probably not.View all data used in this article
1. Main points
In England, between 2 January and 2 July 2021, there were 51,281 deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19); 640 occurred in people who were fully vaccinated, which includes people who had been infected before they were vaccinated.
The risk of death involving COVID-19 was consistently lower for people who had received two vaccinations compared to one or no vaccination, as shown by the weekly age-standardised mortality rates (ASMRs) for deaths involving COVID-19.
Maybe all us vaccinated people are missing the point and we’re all going to end up with some longer term implications who knows but looking at ONS numbers leaves me thinking being fully jabbed was, for me & my family, the logical thing to do.
simonw67 said:
My point is that there is media spin in that page and even the ONS page said there is multiple issues to be aware of when using those numbers as measures of vaccine effectiveness. If you look at figure 2 - the more recent table, the difference appears negligible. I have no doubt for certain people, it has a benefit. For younger age groups, probably not.
Apart from the fact that the younger generation are also now becoming just as infected and we don’t know as of yet how omicron will play out . GT3Manthey said:
Apart from the fact that the younger generation are also now becoming just as infected and we don’t know as of yet how omicron will play out .
I didn’t look at the ONS report thinking it would contain any media spin .
I was referring to the guardian as media spin and cherry picking data points. When you read something in it's entirety (ONS link) it proves that there is much more to it and there are many caveats for each point to be aware of. I didn’t look at the ONS report thinking it would contain any media spin .
re: OMRICON omg so scary: If it's anything like the rest of their 'modelling' it will turn out to be a storm in a tea cup (so far looking like it)
simonw67 said:
I was referring to the guardian as media spin and cherry picking data points. When you read something in it's entirety (ONS link) it proves that there is much more to it and there are many caveats for each point to be aware of.
re: OMRICON omg so scary: If it's anything like the rest of their 'modelling' it will turn out to be a storm in a tea cup (so far looking like it)
Sorry I was just amending my post . Trying to multi task at my age isn’t wise ! re: OMRICON omg so scary: If it's anything like the rest of their 'modelling' it will turn out to be a storm in a tea cup (so far looking like it)
I only looked at the ONS page as you mentioned it .
The part I copied and pasted earlier was taken from the ONS site and then used by the Guardian.
You are right in that we don’t yet know the upshot of omicron so let’s wait and see but I don’t doubt the ONS stats & comments are accurate regardless of age
GT3Manthey said:
Sorry I was just amending my post . Trying to multi task at my age isn’t wise !
I only looked at the ONS page as you mentioned it .
The part I copied and pasted earlier was taken from the ONS site and then used by the Guardian.
You are right in that we don’t yet know the upshot of omicron so let’s wait and see but I don’t doubt the ONS stats & comments are accurate regardless of age
Sorry, I am not being clear. I am not suggesting ONS is inaccurate. I am simply saying that by taking one point its very easy for people to come to the wrong conclusions. If you look at this ONS tweet TODAY: I only looked at the ONS page as you mentioned it .
The part I copied and pasted earlier was taken from the ONS site and then used by the Guardian.
You are right in that we don’t yet know the upshot of omicron so let’s wait and see but I don’t doubt the ONS stats & comments are accurate regardless of age
https://twitter.com/ONS/status/1472862403251650562
the differences in numbers of deaths per 100k of vaccinated vs non is very close. Not so conclusive. (in recent months)
simonw67 said:
Sorry, I am not being clear. I am not suggesting ONS is inaccurate. I am simply saying that by taking one point its very easy for people to come to the wrong conclusions. If you look at this ONS tweet TODAY:
https://twitter.com/ONS/status/1472862403251650562
the differences in numbers of deaths per 100k of vaccinated vs non is very close. Not so conclusive. (in recent months)
No need to apologies I’m bloody useless at all this ! https://twitter.com/ONS/status/1472862403251650562
the differences in numbers of deaths per 100k of vaccinated vs non is very close. Not so conclusive. (in recent months)
My point was only in relation to actual deaths unvaxed vs vaxed rather than age groups but I see your point .
Anyway , wonder what they’ll come out with today ?
Edited by GT3Manthey on Monday 20th December 14:41
Tyre Smoke said:
South Africa are reporting miniscule hospitalisation and deaths and the media are struggling to come up with reasons other than Omicron isn't actually very severe at all. Yes, it spreads easily, but so does a common cold...
Like with all statistics we should make sure we are comparing apples with apples. It is easy to draw wrong conclusions if this is not the case. The issue with South Africa is that there are a number of things which mean their experience is very different to ours such as -It is currently summer
They live a very outdoor orientated lifestyle
The vast majority of property is poorly insulated and certainly not double glazed
Their inside spaces are generally much larger than ours
They have a large population of people taking drugs for HIV and TB and we dont know what impact this is having
Government statistics are always poor. Some of the spikes in SA are because they "found" some data and this leads to severe doubt over their figures
Their testing regime is far behind ours
Their vaccination rate is much lower than ours
The poor population lead a very non-socially distanced lifestyle while those on modest incomes and above are much more socially distanced than we are
A huge percentage of the healthcare system is private and much better equipped than our NHS but the government hospitals of those uninsured are not up to our standard so there is inequality in play with whether you survive a hospitalisation
There is not really a functioning public transport system with modest incomes and above driving everywhere in private cars and only the poor using shared transport. That shared transport is much more claustrophobic than ours though
The list goes on
It is very difficult IMO to take statistics from any other country and compare them directly to another
GT3Manthey said:
This taken from the actual ONS page so no media spin involved -
View all data used in this article
1. Main points
In England, between 2 January and 2 July 2021, there were 51,281 deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19); 640 occurred in people who were fully vaccinated, which includes people who had been infected before they were vaccinated.
The risk of death involving COVID-19 was consistently lower for people who had received two vaccinations compared to one or no vaccination, as shown by the weekly age-standardised mortality rates (ASMRs) for deaths involving COVID-19.
Maybe all us vaccinated people are missing the point and we’re all going to end up with some longer term implications who knows but looking at ONS numbers leaves me thinking being fully jabbed was, for me & my family, the logical thing to do.
Most of those deaths would have been during the winter peak and most were unvaccinated then as they hadn't had a chance to be vaccinated. View all data used in this article
1. Main points
In England, between 2 January and 2 July 2021, there were 51,281 deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19); 640 occurred in people who were fully vaccinated, which includes people who had been infected before they were vaccinated.
The risk of death involving COVID-19 was consistently lower for people who had received two vaccinations compared to one or no vaccination, as shown by the weekly age-standardised mortality rates (ASMRs) for deaths involving COVID-19.
Maybe all us vaccinated people are missing the point and we’re all going to end up with some longer term implications who knows but looking at ONS numbers leaves me thinking being fully jabbed was, for me & my family, the logical thing to do.
The current data on hospitalisations etc doesn't show anything like as drastic a difference.
yellowjack said:
fridaypassion said:
yellowjack said:
Plenty to disagree with in the whole post, but I'm going to concentrate on the bit I've picked out.
"The Virus" is NOT what is keeping hospitals full right now. BoJo and Co. are doing that all by themselves. Almost like they're engineering the situation deliberately.
See this is why there's no sensible debate if you actually read this statement does it not just sound ridiculous? "The Virus" is NOT what is keeping hospitals full right now. BoJo and Co. are doing that all by themselves. Almost like they're engineering the situation deliberately.
As for mandatory vaccines we might get away without the need for it but look at Europe with Austria and Germany already having set dates for mandating vaccines. Now in amongst all the white noise and differing views just stop and consider this. Governments mandating that their free citizens must have a vaccine. This is completely unprecedented well maybe outside China. I'm not aware that any childhood immunisation is mandated anywhere in the world so this is a truly huge step. They aren't doing this for nothing. The situation is serious it is scary but it isn't scaremongering and doing things like blaming Boris for deliberately filling hospitals up (I mean really?) Isn't going to progress anything.
To bring things back into the context of the thread yes we are all fed up of it but the thing to be really fed up with as Welsh beef very correctly says is the real restrictions coming back. Given that this thing is probably never going to go away for the whole of our lifetime we just have to get used to it and finding a way to cope with it on a personal level is something we all have to do.
Granted some people find some kind of comfort in conspiracy theories others have a perhaps more pragmatic approach and just follow a few simple guidelines with the hope that life can continue to head towards some kind of normality but personally I'm fine with making a handful of very small tweaks to daily life to try to avoid lockdown and all the things that come with that. In the grand scheme of things the situation in much of the world since Spring has been great and the thought of slipping back to severe restrictions is not good. I really can't fathom why people would not want to just muck in and help with that
Welshbeef said:
Yellowjacket you must be a jester.
Bojo and co are to blame for filling up hospitals.
...sorry, Welshbleat. I've handed myself into the authorities so that I can have my attitude "adjusted" at a reeducation camp.Bojo and co are to blame for filling up hospitals.
...and fridayfashion? If you're going to ridicule a portion of a quote, don't be so disingenuous as to snip the entire context of said quote out, eh?
yellowjack ACTUALLY said:
"The Virus" is NOT what is keeping hospitals full right now. BoJo and Co. are doing that all by themselves. Almost like they're engineering the situation deliberately. They've done this by effectively sacking hundreds, perhaps thousands of existing care home staff, and putting thousands more potential recruits off the idea of working in the care sector with their insane vaccine mandate. It's left care homes in a position where, to maintain the quality of care for their existing residents at safe levels, they have had to reduce places available to new residents, or completely close their books. This leaves "patients" living in hospitals and blocking beds despite being classed as "medically fit to be discharged".
If you nice folk can't see that care staff vacancies, many of them forced on the sector by cuts in funding by successive governments, admittedly, but many more directly attributable to a single executive decision by our current government, are directly responsible for bed blocking in acute healthcare settings then I feel sorry for you. Cuts to residential care services are hammering the mental health of carers, residents, and their relatives. Carers, experienced carers at that, have effectively been sacked for the "crime" of not wanting to be vaccinated. FACT. People who need either residential or domiciliary care are unable to be taken on by LA or private care firms and/or agencies when they are ready to be discharged from hospital after falls and/or illness. FACT. If HM Government reversed their vaccine mandate for care home staff, then some of those experienced carers might return to their old jobs in order to relieve some of the pressure in the system. But such a mandate is ultimately counter-productive. To discriminate against one group of workers in one area just tells them that simply joining that workforce puts them at risk of further negative treatment that won't be meted out to other professions. That will never be viewed as a positive in recruitment terms.
I genuinely hope that neither "you" nor "your" nearest and dearest get caught out by this care issue. But sadly a lot of us will need care later in our lives. And shortages in the care sector will inevitably affect many people who end up needing care. And so worrying about care, or the lack of it, will affect not only the physical health of those needing care for physical issues, but it will hit their mental health hard too.
To put it bluntly, I now feel so beaten down by the rabidly pro-mask and pro-vaccine that I'm struggling to give any fraction of a f
k about anyone who is affected by Covid-19. It isn't in my family. It isn't in my wife's family. It isn't in my street. But a marked deterioration in the mental health of a number of people in those groups has been noted. And concerns about that are brushed away behind the curtain of propaganda, exaggeration, and outright lies that has been drawn over the "pandemic". Just listen to announcements and news stories, And I mean CAREFULLY listen to them. In order to avoid lying, often it's as telling to listen to what isn't explicitly said as what these people and agencies actually say. It suits them to leave "us" with fears over things that aren't actually that scary when you dig into the facts. Folk are scared that hospitals are "full" and full with young, healthy, unvaccinated people. But they're not. They're full of geriatric patients who require no further hospital treatment but cannot be discharged because nowhere will take them. They seem to think that swathes of young, healthy people form the largest portion of those dying from Covid. But that's not true either. It's a fact that if younger people are getting Covid AND recovering from it, while not realising that they even have it, then it really isn't that serious. Respiratory illness kills hundreds, even thousands of people every year. It always has done. It always will, too. TL;DR? Trying to persuade me that Covid is scary? You're on a hiding to nothing. 25 years in the army, and seeing 34 names of colleagues and a few close friends carved into the walls at the National Arboretum is hard. And those people were DEFINATELY "taken before their time". Being just out of my teens and having to write "that letter" to my parents and to my fiancée, and fill in an Army Will Form? That was tough, but I made my peace with death back then, and accepted that it wasn't personal. Reading about a handful of Octogenarians having a month or two shaved off the end of their lives? I can live with that. Pretty much indefinitely. I'm over 50 now, but I keep active, eat reasonably well, barely drink and I've never smoked. I've taken what I consider to be "reasonable precautions" to stay well. If that doesn't work out for me then I'll take it on the chin. What I worry about is my mental health, and the effect of my poor mental health on those around me. That's an ongoing battle, one which I've tried to address a number of times already with little success. But I'm making what I hope is another start at working through those issues again tomorrow with a 'social prescriber' I was referred to by my GP. It's not much, but it's a start and I'm trying to keep an open mind this time...
Edited by yellowjack on Monday 6th December 12:01
But for the half of people who aren’t collectivists, and are individualists, I’d argue this chronic and purposeful stressor is hugely damaging.
I’m sure for anyone who has been to a councillor after tough times, the message is to love yourself first, others second.
And yet that scumbag Savid Jabbid is telling you you’re bad for society for not having a jab you don’t want.
And if you don’t, you’re killing yourself, other people, and hurting the NHS.
What kind of message is that to people who’ve already taken the firm decision to not vaccinate?
They’re ignoring your choice, and doubling down on oppressing you.
You could be the healthiest person, already had covid19, fine, do charity work, a saint in society... but no, to Savid Jabbid, you’re Satan reincarnate and you may as well be killing old people and children, and burning down hospitals.
It’s offensive.
I’m terrified to imagine how many people say there not wanting the vaccine, and yet had it any way, because fear and social exclusion worries drove them to do it.
As noted earlier, what about done love and affection, rather than aggression and fear, to get you to do something.
The fact they’re using this approach is the most telling variable about how your government sees you.
Like livestock, not individuals.
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