Should GP's be replaced
Discussion
paprika said:
chim said:
petrolveins said:
OP I'm not sure you actually appreciate the roles of GPs today, they do far more than you think, and are also paid less than you might think. They also have to sort out a heck of a lotta crap out.
I may not, I have a very good friend that is a GP though and he is thick as plank (side issue, to much medical crap in head in opinion)) and he is the first to admit it. He is on call a lot and takes home in excess of 100k a year. Now given the amount of years they have to set by in med school and training to reach that level I can understand that, my point though is could that front line diagnoses not be done at slightly lower level, thus freeing up these guys to do more serious doctoring at the sharp end.Edited by chim on Thursday 2nd September 16:56
chim said:
paprika said:
chim said:
petrolveins said:
OP I'm not sure you actually appreciate the roles of GPs today, they do far more than you think, and are also paid less than you might think. They also have to sort out a heck of a lotta crap out.
I may not, I have a very good friend that is a GP though and he is thick as plank (side issue, to much medical crap in head in opinion)) and he is the first to admit it. He is on call a lot and takes home in excess of 100k a year. Now given the amount of years they have to set by in med school and training to reach that level I can understand that, my point though is could that front line diagnoses not be done at slightly lower level, thus freeing up these guys to do more serious doctoring at the sharp end.Edited by chim on Thursday 2nd September 16:56
t patients from taking up the specialists time ? Nurses you said ?
Right , so who's going to do the nurses work ? You ?
Come on, stop being silly..
There is the tiniest chink of probably unintentional correctness in chim's post.
Were the public to trust nurses and pharmacists, were services such as NHS physio to allow patients to self-refer, were the public willing to learn about their condition and self-manage better etc etc, you'd need fewer GPs.
However,
(a) people are medically ignorant on an enormous scale
(b) GP practices do a lot more of the stuff which used to require a wait and a hospital visit, and this often requires an appropriately skilled GP.
(c) You'd have to increase the knowledge and skills of Nurses to make them prescribers across the board, which would in turn make them more expensive.
(d) Deaths would increase. A bit.
Also GP's are independant contractors and a massively powerful lobby group which makes them fiddly to fiddle with as a professional body.
Were the public to trust nurses and pharmacists, were services such as NHS physio to allow patients to self-refer, were the public willing to learn about their condition and self-manage better etc etc, you'd need fewer GPs.
However,
(a) people are medically ignorant on an enormous scale
(b) GP practices do a lot more of the stuff which used to require a wait and a hospital visit, and this often requires an appropriately skilled GP.
(c) You'd have to increase the knowledge and skills of Nurses to make them prescribers across the board, which would in turn make them more expensive.
(d) Deaths would increase. A bit.
Also GP's are independant contractors and a massively powerful lobby group which makes them fiddly to fiddle with as a professional body.
paprika said:
chim said:
paprika said:
chim said:
petrolveins said:
OP I'm not sure you actually appreciate the roles of GPs today, they do far more than you think, and are also paid less than you might think. They also have to sort out a heck of a lotta crap out.
I may not, I have a very good friend that is a GP though and he is thick as plank (side issue, to much medical crap in head in opinion)) and he is the first to admit it. He is on call a lot and takes home in excess of 100k a year. Now given the amount of years they have to set by in med school and training to reach that level I can understand that, my point though is could that front line diagnoses not be done at slightly lower level, thus freeing up these guys to do more serious doctoring at the sharp end.Edited by chim on Thursday 2nd September 16:56
t patients from taking up the specialists time ? Nurses you said ?
Right , so who's going to do the nurses work ? You ?
Come on, stop being silly..
Just axe Gp's and keep vets, they can treat all types of animals so a human should be no problem.
I can hear the receptionist now "Mr Blueg33, your appointment is in 10 minutes after the vet has seen the cow and the dog, just a warning though, he will want to take your temperature would you like to purchase some ky?"
I can hear the receptionist now "Mr Blueg33, your appointment is in 10 minutes after the vet has seen the cow and the dog, just a warning though, he will want to take your temperature would you like to purchase some ky?"
chim said:
paprika said:
chim said:
paprika said:
chim said:
petrolveins said:
OP I'm not sure you actually appreciate the roles of GPs today, they do far more than you think, and are also paid less than you might think. They also have to sort out a heck of a lotta crap out.
I may not, I have a very good friend that is a GP though and he is thick as plank (side issue, to much medical crap in head in opinion)) and he is the first to admit it. He is on call a lot and takes home in excess of 100k a year. Now given the amount of years they have to set by in med school and training to reach that level I can understand that, my point though is could that front line diagnoses not be done at slightly lower level, thus freeing up these guys to do more serious doctoring at the sharp end.Edited by chim on Thursday 2nd September 16:56
t patients from taking up the specialists time ? Nurses you said ?
Right , so who's going to do the nurses work ? You ?
Come on, stop being silly..
Our daughter got a job at a major high street chemists in her gap year. Because she appeared to have a bit of brain power – well, a bit more than the norm, anyway – she was put behind the Pharmacy counter. Within a week she was happily 'diagnosing' ailments off the street and 'prescribing' the right drugs to fix them, with the complete blessing of her employer.
An increasing number of people these days seem to be bypassing doctors' surgeries altogether, for all the usual reasons, and simply going straight to the chemists. The pharmacists in chemists are arguably more tuned up on drugs etc than GPs. Helping ill people is a relatively simple matter of matching the symptoms to the product. Young folk with spongey brains are good at this sort of thing.
An increasing number of people these days seem to be bypassing doctors' surgeries altogether, for all the usual reasons, and simply going straight to the chemists. The pharmacists in chemists are arguably more tuned up on drugs etc than GPs. Helping ill people is a relatively simple matter of matching the symptoms to the product. Young folk with spongey brains are good at this sort of thing.
tonym911 said:
Our daughter got a job at a major high street chemists in her gap year. Because she appeared to have a bit of brain power – well, a bit more than the norm, anyway – she was put behind the Pharmacy counter. Within a week she was happily 'diagnosing' ailments off the street and 'prescribing' the right drugs to fix them, with the complete blessing of her employer.
An increasing number of people these days seem to be bypassing doctors' surgeries altogether, for all the usual reasons, and simply going straight to the chemists. The pharmacists in chemists are arguably more tuned up on drugs etc than GPs. Helping ill people is a relatively simple matter of matching the symptoms to the product. Young folk with spongey brains are good at this sort of thing.
Good. Frees up the surgeries to deal with the more difficult/chronic/acute stuff.An increasing number of people these days seem to be bypassing doctors' surgeries altogether, for all the usual reasons, and simply going straight to the chemists. The pharmacists in chemists are arguably more tuned up on drugs etc than GPs. Helping ill people is a relatively simple matter of matching the symptoms to the product. Young folk with spongey brains are good at this sort of thing.
inkiboo said:
tonym911 said:
Helping ill people is a relatively simple matter of matching the symptoms to the product.
It saddens me that people who obviously have enough intelligence to operate a computer come out with nonsense like the above.Chim, don't take this the wrong way but you really have no idea.
I went to Imperial College which churns out Medics left, right and centre. My Great Uncle was a Neuro Surgeon, my Uncle is a Neuro, my cousins are doctors, most of my mates were medics and are now doctors so I can tell you they are clever and generally very knowledgable folk.
The Undergraduate training usually lasts 4, 5, 6 or even 7 years depending on which course you take and this varies between Universities - think its called MBBS....
After this you have to go through two Foundation Program years.
You then have to go through the Hospital Speciality rotations which is 6 - 7 years which results in quite a few rotations between various hospitals and its almost like a lottery where you end up......
The above is the minimum that you need to start GPing - qualified GPs might locum for a period of time before a GP practice takes them on as a full time registered GP.
Not sure why I have elaborated but as much as I take the piss out of my doctor mates for being obsessed with their careers, I also greatly admire their dedication.
They have to go through quite a lot to even become a GP so its not a case of lets stick in a chap who has memorised a human biology book - a lot of their knowledge comes from experience.
Does that help you Chim?
I went to Imperial College which churns out Medics left, right and centre. My Great Uncle was a Neuro Surgeon, my Uncle is a Neuro, my cousins are doctors, most of my mates were medics and are now doctors so I can tell you they are clever and generally very knowledgable folk.
The Undergraduate training usually lasts 4, 5, 6 or even 7 years depending on which course you take and this varies between Universities - think its called MBBS....
After this you have to go through two Foundation Program years.
You then have to go through the Hospital Speciality rotations which is 6 - 7 years which results in quite a few rotations between various hospitals and its almost like a lottery where you end up......
The above is the minimum that you need to start GPing - qualified GPs might locum for a period of time before a GP practice takes them on as a full time registered GP.
Not sure why I have elaborated but as much as I take the piss out of my doctor mates for being obsessed with their careers, I also greatly admire their dedication.
They have to go through quite a lot to even become a GP so its not a case of lets stick in a chap who has memorised a human biology book - a lot of their knowledge comes from experience.
Does that help you Chim?
inkiboo said:
tonym911 said:
Helping ill people is a relatively simple matter of matching the symptoms to the product.
It saddens me that people who obviously have enough intelligence to operate a computer come out with nonsense like the above.They have no actual experience of the occupation but clearly any training is a waste of time for any professional as all other jobs are easy, it's just that most PHers choose to work in IT but could easily do any other job without any of the required training if they wanted to.
paprika said:
inkiboo said:
chim said:
When you think about it there is very little a GP does that Google and and a half decent nurse
could not manage.
I assume you have medical training/knowledge to make that call? No?could not manage.
chim said:
I may be wrong here
Yes, yes you are. The worst thing the NHS did was listen far too much to patients. Patients have no idea, which is why they are not doctors. Now we have a generation of people who think with the power of Google they can question everything.The result? Retards who don't vaccinate their children and others who use homeopathy to treat cancer.
GPs to me are a vital service - years of training and generally they can be very useful, they can often see a bigger picture by getting to know patients and seeing that the old dear who keeps coming in with a variety of minor compliants may actually just be lonely beacuse her husband died etc.
el stovey said:
inkiboo said:
tonym911 said:
Helping ill people is a relatively simple matter of matching the symptoms to the product.
It saddens me that people who obviously have enough intelligence to operate a computer come out with nonsense like the above.They have no actual experience of the occupation but clearly any training is a waste of time for any professional as all other jobs are easy, it's just that most PHers choose to work in IT but could easily do any other job without any of the required training if they wanted to.
Rags said:
Chim, don't take this the wrong way but you really have no idea.
I went to Imperial College which churns out Medics left, right and centre. My Great Uncle was a Neuro Surgeon, my Uncle is a Neuro, my cousins are doctors, most of my mates were medics and are now doctors so I can tell you they are clever and generally very knowledgable folk.
The Undergraduate training usually lasts 4, 5, 6 or even 7 years depending on which course you take and this varies between Universities - think its called MBBS....
After this you have to go through two Foundation Program years.
You then have to go through the Hospital Speciality rotations which is 6 - 7 years which results in quite a few rotations between various hospitals and its almost like a lottery where you end up......
The above is the minimum that you need to start GPing - qualified GPs might locum for a period of time before a GP practice takes them on as a full time registered GP.
Not sure why I have elaborated but as much as I take the piss out of my doctor mates for being obsessed with their careers, I also greatly admire their dedication.
They have to go through quite a lot to even become a GP so its not a case of lets stick in a chap who has memorised a human biology book - a lot of their knowledge comes from experience.
Does that help you Chim?
Totally with Rags, in fact stated very much the same. Doctors have to go through a mountain of training and deserve the pay they receive once qualified, in fact for a lot of them the money is not important. What I am getting at is that this talent pool are completely wasted in many instances in the surgery environment. Here they get to sit through a daily torrent of 10 minute appointments with people that should no better and pop next door to the chemist for an Asprin.I went to Imperial College which churns out Medics left, right and centre. My Great Uncle was a Neuro Surgeon, my Uncle is a Neuro, my cousins are doctors, most of my mates were medics and are now doctors so I can tell you they are clever and generally very knowledgable folk.
The Undergraduate training usually lasts 4, 5, 6 or even 7 years depending on which course you take and this varies between Universities - think its called MBBS....
After this you have to go through two Foundation Program years.
You then have to go through the Hospital Speciality rotations which is 6 - 7 years which results in quite a few rotations between various hospitals and its almost like a lottery where you end up......
The above is the minimum that you need to start GPing - qualified GPs might locum for a period of time before a GP practice takes them on as a full time registered GP.
Not sure why I have elaborated but as much as I take the piss out of my doctor mates for being obsessed with their careers, I also greatly admire their dedication.
They have to go through quite a lot to even become a GP so its not a case of lets stick in a chap who has memorised a human biology book - a lot of their knowledge comes from experience.
Does that help you Chim?
There has to be a better way of dealing with this than wasting this valuable resource at huge cost.
tonym911 said:
el stovey said:
inkiboo said:
tonym911 said:
Helping ill people is a relatively simple matter of matching the symptoms to the product.
It saddens me that people who obviously have enough intelligence to operate a computer come out with nonsense like the above.They have no actual experience of the occupation but clearly any training is a waste of time for any professional as all other jobs are easy, it's just that most PHers choose to work in IT but could easily do any other job without any of the required training if they wanted to.
I didn't mean to single out you in particular, just a general statement towards these PHs 'being a doctor/whatever is easy' threads.el stovey said:
I didn't mean to single out you in particular, just a general statement towards these PHs 'being a doctor/whatever is easy' threads.A condescending attitude, ambivalence to social skills and feeling comfortable in short sleeved shirts of man made fibre are not the sort of skills any johnny come lately can pick up, oh no.
Justayellowbadge said:
el stovey said:
I didn't mean to single out you in particular, just a general statement towards these PHs 'being a doctor/whatever is easy' threads.A condescending attitude, ambivalence to social skills and feeling comfortable in short sleeved shirts of man made fibre are not the sort of skills any johnny come lately can pick up, oh no.
chim said:
Totally with Rags, in fact stated very much the same. Doctors have to go through a mountain of training and deserve the pay they receive once qualified, in fact for a lot of them the money is not important. What I am getting at is that this talent pool are completely wasted in many instances in the surgery environment. Here they get to sit through a daily torrent of 10 minute appointments with people that should no better and pop next door to the chemist for an Asprin.
There has to be a better way of dealing with this than wasting this valuable resource at huge cost.
I agree that the public need to take more responsibility for their own health. Its diabolical how frequently and inappropriately many people present. There has to be a better way of dealing with this than wasting this valuable resource at huge cost.
The NHS has tried to move some of the clinical load to non-doctors, usually nurse practitioners. In the right environment they are great but often not much cheaper than doctors because they are usually senior nurses with years of accumulated pay increments. In the wrong circumstances they can cause carnage, as an example it takes years of experience (of medicine, not nursing) to catch the seemingly trivial set of complaints that actually point to an underlying cancer.
Like in everything, some are bad, some good, most average. The average standard in medicine in this country is very high though.
pugwash4x4 said:
Justayellowbadge said:
el stovey said:
I didn't mean to single out you in particular, just a general statement towards these PHs 'being a doctor/whatever is easy' threads.A condescending attitude, ambivalence to social skills and feeling comfortable in short sleeved shirts of man made fibre are not the sort of skills any johnny come lately can pick up, oh no.
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