Reversing Type 2 Diabetes

[oldbanger]

Cholesterols are carrier or transport molecules and tend to be elevated where there is a need for cell repair, such as in heart disease. They are also a primary constituent of brain matter.

I can understand why cholesterol has become a proxy for diagnosing heart disease and heart disease risk. However then taking the leap to reducing it as a means of combatting heart disease doesn’t really make sense. It’s like for example banning support workers in areas with high levels of child neglect.

[Halb]

the good thing is we are learning more about how it all works.

[LordGrover]

Shame it's not making it into common knowledge.
Much of this 'new knowledge' has been known for decades.

Edited by LordGrover on Monday 8th October 11:25

[Kenny Powers]

Halb said:

the good thing is we are learning more about how it all works.

Yes indeed. The tide is slowly turning. In no small part thanks to the spread of information over the internet...which is why I’m so passionate about it and will spread the word to anyone who will listen

Sadly though, in the context of this particular discussion, the bad thing is that, despite almost overwhelming scientific and anecdotal evidence, diabetes patients are still having to go very very far outside of mainstream medical advice and do all their own research and experimentation in order to reverse their condition. More importantly in order to prevent themselves from getting it in the first plaice.

This will change over time. A hundred years from now people will look back and laugh at how dumb our generation of deitary ideas were. Hopefully...

[Halb]

the web might play a part in spreading ideas from the researchers.
there have been quite a few mainstream programmes now (trust me I'm a doctor) on how diabetes can be reversed. My original comment was more relating to cholesterol in relation to heart disease, though that might not have been clear.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/05/ra...

[Kenny Powers]

That’s a mildly encouraging article but again appears to point the finger of blame on people eating too much, rather than what they’re eating.

You don’t need to restrict calories in order to reverse obesity and diabetes. They are both a symptom of a metabolic disorder which can be fixed if you remove the cause. The cause isn’t calories, it’s carbs.

You just need to cut out carbohydrate and excess protein. Nature takes care of the rest

[WyrleyD]

I was diagnosed 3 years ago with T2 Diabetes. I have never been overweight (74kg and 6' 1") but my fasting count is between 8 and 9 in the mornings and has been since I was diagnosed, the 3 fasting blood tests over 6 months were enough to trigger the diagnosis . For the last year I have been on a high fat/low or no carb diet but it has made no difference whatsoever to the morning highs and my HbA1c levels have been slowly rising from 5.5 three years ago to 6.59 last week and that is tested every 3 months (it did stick around 6.0 for about nine months a year ago). I'm sure that my problem is down to severe liver problem that I had 30 years ago which left me with a very fatty liver (found when I had a biopsy 15 yers ago). I don't know what I can now do to control what looks like something that is getting progressively worse no matter what sort of diet I try. I did do the Micheal Mosley 5:2 diet for a year and lost 3kg but it did nothing to help. The docs reckon that I will have to continue to take Metformin and eventually have to have insulin.

[Kenny Powers]

WyrleyD said:

I was diagnosed 3 years ago with T2 Diabetes. I have never been overweight (74kg and 6' 1") but my fasting count is between 8 and 9 in the mornings and has been since I was diagnosed, the 3 fasting blood tests over 6 months were enough to trigger the diagnosis . For the last year I have been on a high fat/low or no carb diet but it has made no difference whatsoever to the morning highs and my HbA1c levels have been slowly rising from 5.5 three years ago to 6.59 last week and that is tested every 3 months (it did stick around 6.0 for about nine months a year ago). I'm sure that my problem is down to severe liver problem that I had 30 years ago which left me with a very fatty liver (found when I had a biopsy 15 yers ago). I don't know what I can now do to control what looks like something that is getting progressively worse no matter what sort of diet I try. I did do the Micheal Mosley 5:2 diet for a year and lost 3kg but it did nothing to help. The docs reckon that I will have to continue to take Metformin and eventually have to have insulin.

Yeah morning highs are usually a bit of a sticking point and can seem impossible to overcome. How much protein do you consume? Too much protein will play havoc with your fasting sugars, as your liver converts the excess amino acids into glucose and your numbers will rise significantly in the early morning and stay elevated for hours.

Try getting a handle on around 50-60g of protein per day and see if it helps. Made a massive difference for me. Kick start that process by doing intermittent fasts. These will help purge glucose and glycogen.


ETA: do everything you can to avoid going on insulin. Once you’re insulin dependant you will gain weight. The glucose will be hammered into your tissues. Your blood will appear clean but years down the road you’re still very likely to suffer complications. Adding insulin to someone who is insulin resistant is like throwing petrol on the fire. It can only get worse from there. Try everything else at all costs before accepting injections.

Edited by Kenny Powers on Monday 8th October 13:02

[boxst]

I've decided that I have a slight issue with the word 'reverse'. I've admired Kenny's ability to stick to his diet and I have also had good success (dropped 26kg and medically test wise do not have diabetes anymore). However, I think that I am managing it rather than having reversed it. If I go back to eating the way I used to (carbohydrate rich) then if not immediately then certainly quite quickly I will go back to 'having' Diabetes again.

I just mention this as I have been seeing colleagues I haven't seen for a few months last week at a conference and they all commented on the way I look (thin ) and after one of them commenting that they have T2 Diabetes as well and asking me if all they had to do is follow this diet for a couple of months and then go back to their previous lifestyle ...

[Kenny Powers]

boxst said:

I've decided that I have a slight issue with the word 'reverse'. I've admired Kenny's ability to stick to his diet and I have also had good success (dropped 26kg and medically test wise do not have diabetes anymore). However, I think that I am managing it rather than having reversed it. If I go back to eating the way I used to (carbohydrate rich) then if not immediately then certainly quite quickly I will go back to 'having' Diabetes again.

I just mention this as I have been seeing colleagues I haven't seen for a few months last week at a conference and they all commented on the way I look (thin ) and after one of them commenting that they have T2 Diabetes as well and asking me if all they had to do is follow this diet for a couple of months and then go back to their previous lifestyle ...

Yeah it’s difficult not to take that view. I used to think the same. However this is my new rationale;

Diabetes is characterised by excessive glucose in the body. Without medication, and without any symptoms, the disease is effectively not there. Once “reversed” the patient is of course still carbohydrate intolerant, but they always were, which is why they became diabetic. They will have to limit their carbohydrate intake for the rest of their life, but at the same time, if they had done so their whole life so far, they wouldn’t have become diabetic anyway.

Cured, reversed, beaten...whichever word one chooses to describe it, it’s better than a lifetime of counting carbohydrates and taking medicines and insulin which simply push the glucose from your blood into your tissues, which eventually melts your eyes and toes...

In essence the rules are simple. Eat real natural foods but no grains or starch. No sugar. Nothing that was made in a factory. If you’re not taking medication, and your body is achieving glucose homeostasis all on its own, then to me that’s a good enough definition of reversed. Others may disagree

ETA: additionally, I also learned recently that, according to Jason Fung, beta cell burnout isn’t really a thing. Apparently ‘beta cell burnout’ is actually fatty pancreas stopping the secretion of insulin, and that once the fat has gone from the pancreas, normal insulin function returns. In other words, theoretically, after a brief spike as the body readjusts to glucose, you can go back to eating carbohydrate.

Personally though I have no wish to test this theory, as I’m happier than I ever have been with my food. I have no desire to consume any carbohydrates beyond vegetables, so it’s of no consequence to me, but interesting nonetheless.

Edited by Kenny Powers on Monday 8th October 13:42

[Kenny Powers]

WyrleyD said:

I was diagnosed 3 years ago with T2 Diabetes. I have never been overweight (74kg and 6' 1") but my fasting count is between 8 and 9 in the mornings and has been since I was diagnosed, the 3 fasting blood tests over 6 months were enough to trigger the diagnosis . For the last year I have been on a high fat/low or no carb diet but it has made no difference whatsoever to the morning highs and my HbA1c levels have been slowly rising from 5.5 three years ago to 6.59 last week and that is tested every 3 months (it did stick around 6.0 for about nine months a year ago). I'm sure that my problem is down to severe liver problem that I had 30 years ago which left me with a very fatty liver (found when I had a biopsy 15 yers ago). I don't know what I can now do to control what looks like something that is getting progressively worse no matter what sort of diet I try. I did do the Micheal Mosley 5:2 diet for a year and lost 3kg but it did nothing to help. The docs reckon that I will have to continue to take Metformin and eventually have to have insulin.

I want to add to this. In my first year with T2, I was beginning to struggle very similarly. My morning sugars were never in a safe range. Always above 7 and very often 8 or 9. When I expressed my concerns to the GP (who at that time wasn’t my actual GP) she shrugged it off with “well that’s no different to most of my diabetic patients”. Oh well that’s fine then. I’ll settle for toxic blood until lunchtime so long as everyone else is the same

In fairness my actual GP is much better and although impressed with my blood work, she’s completely unable to officially endorse or recommend my diet. Basically help yourself, because it seems most doctors arent going to do it for you. The main aim seems to be to get us all on drugs or worse, insulin, and then tell us to magically lose weight while we have permanent hyperinsulinemia 247/365

[mooseracer]

When did you stop drinking Kenny, did it coincide with keto or beforehand?

Surprised your Dr isn't at least a little more supportive as even luddites like me are aware of the potential benefits to diabetes

[Kenny Powers]

mooseracer said:

When did you stop drinking Kenny, did it coincide with keto or beforehand?

Surprised your Dr isn't at least a little more supportive as even luddites like me are aware of the potential benefits to diabetes

Sorry, I probably wasn’t very clear. The first GP I mentioned was the only one available at the time, and was rubbish. My actual GP is now fully supportive of my diet, and impressed with all my blood markers, but it’s very obvious she isn’t allowed to officially endorse, or recommend, nutritional ketosis as a therapy for diabetes. It’s kind of like “well done but don’t tell anyone I said so”

Yes I quit alcohol at exactly the same time as I began ketosis. Ten months ago. Something else I don’t miss and will never go back to. My health, my food, and my enjoyment of life have all improved thricefold since adopting this lifestyle. Fairly sure most people have forgotten, or never knew, just how good fat tastes. Pretty happy that I got diabetes really, or I’d never have discovered my newfound mojo

[Halb]

Kenny Powers said:

That’s a mildly encouraging article but again appears to point the finger of blame on people eating too much, rather than what they’re eating.

You don’t need to restrict calories in order to reverse obesity and diabetes. They are both a symptom of a metabolic disorder which can be fixed if you remove the cause. The cause isn’t calories, it’s carbs.

You just need to cut out carbohydrate and excess protein. Nature takes care of the rest

Well it's just one path. Carbs need not be cut out.
people are now reversing diabetes with keto/vegan/low cal and fasting. Whichever works for the mis best.
we (people/scientists) are learning more about the links between obesity and diabetes and other issues
A plant-based diet for the prevention and treatment of type 2 diabetes
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC54669...

Edited by Halb on Monday 8th October 18:47

[Pupp]

Thanks for the fat/cholesterol responses. This thread has got me sufficiently interested (as a big guy who likes his carbs) to:
a) lose some beef
b) monitor blood glucose for a while just in case
So Accu Chek proforma nano to hand and test one done... after a fasting day following grapefruit and coffee breakfast, with some decent walking at lunch time, reading was 3.9.

Just about to enjoy a baked spud evening meal with chilli beef, mushroom and onion filling. Will be interesting to see the +2 hour and before breakfast tomorrow.

Fingers crossed.

[Kenny Powers]

Pupp said:

Thanks for the fat/cholesterol responses. This thread has got me sufficiently interested (as a big guy who likes his carbs) to:
a) lose some beef
b) monitor blood glucose for a while just in case
So Accu Chek proforma nano to hand and test one done... after a fasting day following grapefruit and coffee breakfast, with some decent walking at lunch time, reading was 3.9.

Just about to enjoy a baked spud evening meal with chilli beef, mushroom and onion filling. Will be interesting to see the +2 hour and before breakfast tomorrow.

Fingers crossed.

Very encouraging. I cannot imagine you have any issues with a reading of 3.9 at any time of day or night

However, and I’m not trying to scare you, but do keep in mind that elevated glucose concentrations are only detected when insulin function has already deteriorated to the point where it can’t keep up. A better measure of metabolic health is the level of insulin in your blood. I’m not aware of any means to measure this at home, in fact you’d struggle to get an NHS doctor to order such a test. The best indicator is - if you are slowly gaining weight that you struggle to shift, you may well currently need excess insulin in order to maintain good glucose.

All in all, your best bet if you’re even mildly concerned, which it appears you may be, is to just be mindful of not eating too many refined carbs. I’m sure you’re abolsutely fine though

[Pupp]

Thanks... so, +2 after yesterday's eve meal was 5.2. Seems fine to me.
This morning after a good 7 hours' sleep with no further food at 5.4. Guess this just shows your body doesn't always respond as you expect it to

[LordGrover]

I quite enjoy 2KetoDudes podcasts and thought this one may be of interest to some here: Always Hungry with Dr. David Ludwig. As always, the interview proper doesn't start for fifteen minutes or so.

[Kenny Powers]

Pupp said:

Thanks... so, +2 after yesterday's eve meal was 5.2. Seems fine to me.
This morning after a good 7 hours' sleep with no further food at 5.4. Guess this just shows your body doesn't always respond as you expect it to

That’s perfectly normal, in the early hours of the morning, usually some time around 04:00, hormone releases signal the liver to secrete glucose into the blood in order to give you energy for waking up. This period, know as the dawn phenomenon, is typically problematic for diabetics, as their insulin tends to be ineffective at countering the rise in blood glucose. The mechanism is called gluconeogenesis. Diabetics can mitigate this effect by ensuring their body has minimal glycogen stores. Exercising, and not eating carbohydrate or excessive protein help achieve this for them.

[Halb]

Pupp said:

Thanks for the fat/cholesterol responses. This thread has got me sufficiently interested (as a big guy who likes his carbs) to:
a) lose some beef
b) monitor blood glucose for a while just in case
So Accu Chek proforma nano to hand and test one done... after a fasting day following grapefruit and coffee breakfast, with some decent walking at lunch time, reading was 3.9.

Just about to enjoy a baked spud evening meal with chilli beef, mushroom and onion filling. Will be interesting to see the +2 hour and before breakfast tomorrow.

Fingers crossed.

THere's a pretty good yter called, What I Learned, he has factual based doc style vids on cholesterol, salt and diabetes.
And the joe rogan podcasts are just the best, for the sheer width of info he gets out there from all the nutritional experts he has one. I don't think there is anything else like it out there.