Fitness gurus on the juice...

[MC Bodge]

ORD said:

popeyewhite said:

5-10 kgs won't make any real difference except to the perception of the opponent. Fighting is a sport where strength doesn't really play a part beyond the fact it's an element of fitness. As another poster has inferred there's the odd freak, but generally speed and technique beats weight and strength in any fighting sport. The classic brains vs brawn (fitness vs strength if you like) clash is the Rumble in the Jungle.

Why do you think boxing and all other fighting sports have weight classes?

Because approximately equally trained and skilled participants are put together in sporting contests and size can be an advantage.

Judo didn't have weight classes for a long time.

The initial point from Lord Trumpton was regarding whether or not body building produced a good fighter or just somebody who looks like they might be one.

This thread appears to be highlighting some of the issues of masculinity in the modern world.

It has been hypothesised that as society has become more feminised, there has been a reaction from some men towards a sort of hypermasculinity.

Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 31st January 16:09

[MC Bodge]

V8mate said:

The latter is a horse-bolted exercise in virtue signalling. It was only an issue back in the days when footballs and medicinal balls were interchangeable

Yes, although I wouldn't fancy trying to swallow one whole

[V8mate]

MC Bodge said:

V8mate said:

The latter is a horse-bolted exercise in virtue signalling. It was only an issue back in the days when footballs and medicinal balls were interchangeable

Yes, although I wouldn't fancy trying to swallow one whole

Bloody autocorrect!

[Herr Schnell]

ORD said:

popeyewhite said:

5-10 kgs won't make any real difference except to the perception of the opponent. Fighting is a sport where strength doesn't really play a part beyond the fact it's an element of fitness. As another poster has inferred there's the odd freak, but generally speed and technique beats weight and strength in any fighting sport. The classic brains vs brawn (fitness vs strength if you like) clash is the Rumble in the Jungle.

Why do you think boxing and all other fighting sports have weight classes?

As a sport gets bigger it needs to fall in line with regulatory requirements such as rounds and weight classes, it's the way in which modern society legitimises combat sports. People are uncomfortable watching big guys vs smaller guys despite the fact that if the smaller guy is skilled it's not a problem.

Think back to early UFC events which mirrored Vale Tudo in Brasil in having no rounds, no weight limits, no gloves and no rules about striking when down etc.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ijp0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9guf5F3OdI

As the profile increased the press and regulators attention increased and so the need to "sanitise" proceedings took over. In large parts of the world bouts still take place this way

[ORD]

MC Bodge said:

Because approximately equally trained and skilled participants are put together in sporting contests and size can be an advantage.

Judo didn't have weight classes for a long time.

The initial point from Lord Trumpton was regarding whether or not body building produced a good fighter or just somebody who looks like they might be one.

This thread appears to be highlighting some of the issues of masculinity in the modern world.

It has been hypothesised that as society has become more feminised, there has been a reaction from some men towards a sort of hypermasculinity.

Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 31st January 16:09

What you said about weight classes is precisely my point - strength and size are advantages. I didn’t think that was controversial! :-) They are attributes (like skill and fitness) that can be improved to the benefit of the sportsperson.

[lemmingjames]

MC Bodge said:

I don't know much about PED use, but their are quite a few young lads with disproportionately bulky arms and shoulders about. It may well just be 1,000s of curls and Arnold Presses, but it looks odd and "unnatural".

When I was a teenage rugby (county, regional trials) player there were some strong lads, but (not ripped and bulky) PED weren't really a mainstream thing as glfar as I knew.

Your forgetting that some might play sports that has lead them to having bulky arms/shoulders etc. As its got round to fighting talk, my arms/shoulders/back where disproportionate to (i guess) my chest, due to doing Jiu-Jitsu and playing American Football. Both sports had alot of pulling/pushing going on which, along with weights work, lead to them being bigger (if you know what i mean).

Then youll have people on the tools or just lifting boxes will mean some parts over develop compared to others.

[MC Bodge]

lemmingjames said:

MC Bodge said:

I don't know much about PED use, but their are quite a few young lads with disproportionately bulky arms and shoulders about. It may well just be 1,000s of curls and Arnold Presses, but it looks odd and "unnatural".

When I was a teenage rugby (county, regional trials) player there were some strong lads, but (not ripped and bulky) PED weren't really a mainstream thing as glfar as I knew.

Your forgetting that some might play sports that has lead them to having bulky arms/shoulders etc. As its got round to fighting talk, my arms/shoulders/back where disproportionate to (i guess) my chest, due to doing Jiu-Jitsu and playing American Football. Both sports had alot of pulling/pushing going on which, along with weights work, lead to them being bigger (if you know what i mean).

Then youll have people on the tools or just lifting boxes will mean some parts over develop compared to others.

Yes, I'm sure that's the reason for those extremely groomed, fake tanned men have such big upper bodies....

[popeyewhite]

ORD said:

What you said about weight classes is precisely my point - strength and size are advantages.

I think you have your wires crossed a bit here. In order to have a match which is competitive fighters are placed against those which weigh the same to ensure both fighters have an equal chance of winning. It is not because the bigger and stronger person will win. In boxing it might just as easily be because the smaller and faster opponent will dance around and exhaust the bigger guy and win on points. The focus is on boxing skill. In Judo weight is an advantage because it's simple bulk - dead weight - nothing to do with "strength and size"

Personally If i had to fight again I'd much rather face a larger opponent, slower, easier to defend against, easier to hit etc etc. Little guy with lightning fast reflexes, no chance.

[MC Bodge]

popeyewhite said:

ORD said:

What you said about weight classes is precisely my point - strength and size are advantages.

I think you have your wires crossed a bit here. In order to have a match which is competitive fighters are placed against those which weigh the same to ensure both fighters have an equal chance of winning. It is not because the bigger and stronger person will win. In boxing it might just as easily be because the smaller and faster opponent will dance around and exhaust the bigger guy and win on points. The focus is on boxing skill. In Judo weight is an advantage because it's simple bulk - dead weight - nothing to do with "strength and size"

Personally If i had to fight again I'd much rather face a larger opponent, slower, easier to defend against, easier to hit etc etc. Little guy with lightning fast reflexes, no chance.

It is also deviating from Lord Trumpton's point. He was talking about comparing body builders who were not otherwise trained as(or with the mentality) of fighters with trained fighters from a point of view of being "hard".

It is partially relevant to the thread as the OP was talking about people portraying an image, with the assistance of possibly pharmaceutical methods, rather than performance.

[markcoznottz]

ORD said:

Halb said:

If I recall, I think Mark is a former BB competitor. YOu're too argumentative at times Ord.

Of course, I also own some micro plates, and might be defending my purchase!! Owned them for over ten years, not used them for loooong time, but they were useful for press and the like. I think also...when I was doing my 20 rep routine years ago I used them there, similar to what Mark described. A widowmaker set is transcendent

If so, then he proves that people can be successful in a sport while having no clue about the theory of the thing.

Strength athlete. Been in the iron game 30 years, got my first set of dumbells at 16, never really stopped. My old man part owned a gym, I know former mr universe competitors, and uk strongmen. I'm from an engineering background, so I always thought there was something very wrong with how people learnt the craft. Early 60's to 2000, you had weiders mags. That was your lot, plus recycled crap passed around the gym. Oh and Arnold's book. There never was and still to this day isn't any reliable material re what most people want to know. How does the average person get bigger drug free. Not 'fake natty', but truly natural. The worrying thing is there just aren't enough of us, and all the you tube vids feature ped users. It's a truly strange industry built on lies. Greg Doucette, who openly admits using, still gets people asking him 'is the rock natural ' etc. That's the normalisation of drug use and to be fair it's getting out of hand, i.e. Hollywood stars. Around 2000 there was a lot of interest in old school routines, i.e. 20 rep squats, abbreviated routines, back then social media didn't exist, so the interest was more in the actual routine, rather than the personality of the 'influencer' . I discovered stuart mcroberts hardgainer site and decided to try and it really set me on my path to reaching my genetic ceiling, which to be fair, is as far as anyone can go.

I strongly suggest ORD you refrain from the the use of insults like troll, especially when dealing with people who have forgotten more than you will ever know. Anything you want to know ask away.

[mcelliott]

markcoznottz said:

ORD said:

Halb said:

If I recall, I think Mark is a former BB competitor. YOu're too argumentative at times Ord.

Of course, I also own some micro plates, and might be defending my purchase!! Owned them for over ten years, not used them for loooong time, but they were useful for press and the like. I think also...when I was doing my 20 rep routine years ago I used them there, similar to what Mark described. A widowmaker set is transcendent

If so, then he proves that people can be successful in a sport while having no clue about the theory of the thing.

Strength athlete. Been in the iron game 30 years, got my first set of dumbells at 16, never really stopped. My old man part owned a gym, I know former mr universe competitors, and uk strongmen. I'm from an engineering background, so I always thought there was something very wrong with how people learnt the craft. Early 60's to 2000, you had weiders mags. That was your lot, plus recycled crap passed around the gym. Oh and Arnold's book. There never was and still to this day isn't any reliable material re what most people want to know. How does the average person get bigger drug free. Not 'fake natty', but truly natural. The worrying thing is there just aren't enough of us, and all the you tube vids feature ped users. It's a truly strange industry built on lies. Greg Doucette, who openly admits using, still gets people asking him 'is the rock natural ' etc. That's the normalisation of drug use and to be fair it's getting out of hand, i.e. Hollywood stars. Around 2000 there was a lot of interest in old school routines, i.e. 20 rep squats, abbreviated routines, back then social media didn't exist, so the interest was more in the actual routine, rather than the personality of the 'influencer' . I discovered stuart mcroberts hardgainer site and decided to try and it really set me on my path to reaching my genetic ceiling, which to be fair, is as far as anyone can go.

I strongly suggest ORD you refrain from the the use of insults like troll, especially when dealing with people who have forgotten more than you will ever know. Anything you want to know ask away.

Still got the Stuart McRoberts training booklet Brawn, came free in an edition of Flex magazine back in the day.

[ORD]

markcoznottz said:

Strength athlete. Been in the iron game 30 years, got my first set of dumbells at 16, never really stopped. My old man part owned a gym, I know former mr universe competitors, and uk strongmen. I'm from an engineering background, so I always thought there was something very wrong with how people learnt the craft. Early 60's to 2000, you had weiders mags. That was your lot, plus recycled crap passed around the gym. Oh and Arnold's book. There never was and still to this day isn't any reliable material re what most people want to know. How does the average person get bigger drug free. Not 'fake natty', but truly natural. The worrying thing is there just aren't enough of us, and all the you tube vids feature ped users. It's a truly strange industry built on lies. Greg Doucette, who openly admits using, still gets people asking him 'is the rock natural ' etc. That's the normalisation of drug use and to be fair it's getting out of hand, i.e. Hollywood stars. Around 2000 there was a lot of interest in old school routines, i.e. 20 rep squats, abbreviated routines, back then social media didn't exist, so the interest was more in the actual routine, rather than the personality of the 'influencer' . I discovered stuart mcroberts hardgainer site and decided to try and it really set me on my path to reaching my genetic ceiling, which to be fair, is as far as anyone can go.

I strongly suggest ORD you refrain from the the use of insults like troll, especially when dealing with people who have forgotten more than you will ever know. Anything you want to know ask away.

You’ve missed a full 20 years of extensive academic and practical learning on hypertrophy. There are huge resources out there. It’s not 2000 anymore.

[Halb]

Just watched more plats video on Tom Hardy
Tom Hardy’s Steroid Cycle - Was He Natural In "Warrior" Or As Bane?
More Plates More Dates
https://youtu.be/hyj1CgLG7PM

MC Bodge said:

It is also deviating from Lord Trumpton's point. He was talking about comparing body builders who were not otherwise trained as(or with the mentality) of fighters with trained fighters from a point of view of being "hard".

It is partially relevant to the thread as the OP was talking about people portraying an image, with the assistance of possibly pharmaceutical methods, rather than performance.

trumpton slid in in a slick npe trollish way to introduce a sport no one had been discussing, because that's his sport and he wanted to piss on some chips and st stir, and he was successful which was a shame. Health matter is mostly a nicer place than npe. Physique and running was the main chat, not fighting. Any ruffling is because what was mostly a nice chat had someone barge in and use name like 'maggots.'

[TheJimi]

I agree, Lord Trumpton was being an enormous dick.

[Jim on the hill]

TheJimi said:

I agree, Lord Trumpton was being an enormous dick.

He's just insecure, don't pick on him

[ORD]

For my part, I apologise for being rude to Mark. It was uncalled for, and I am sorry.

Edited by ORD on Friday 31st January 19:40

[TheJimi]

ORD said:

For my part, I apologise for being rude to Mark. It was uncalled for, and I am sorry.

Edited by ORD on Friday 31st January 19:40

*thud*

[J4CKO]

Phew, cant breathe for all the Testosterone and posturing in here

It isnt a fight training vs muscles anyway, some people are just fking nails despite not being trained, muscular or physically fit. Some are soft despite being Black belts in whatever or being 300 pounds of muscle, some people have extensive experience of actual fighting, some are fit, trained and unhinged and those are the ones you need to worry about.

Its a skill of limited use though being good at fighting, if you live anywhere half civilised.

[Halb]

TheJimi said:

*thud*

[ORD]

Halb said:

TheJimi said:

*thud*