Did dentists in the past butcher teeth for financial reward?
Discussion
Recent history of my dental visits:
2009 - scaling and polishing.
2015 - scaling and polishing.
December 2021 - scaling and polishing.
It is coincidence that I've only had three appointments six years apart in the last 12 years, but all three dentists I've visited have said there's nothing wrong with my teeth.
I brush twice in the morning (once just isn't enough) and tend to then do so again at lunchtime / late in the afternoon before leaving work. If I don't manage that then I'll brush twice before bed.
Mouthwash now and then.
I use those plastic toothpicks or dental floss intermittently.
I also safely scrape off and remove plaque from my lower incisors myself.
I have no fillings in any of my adult teeth, but even growing up in the 1990s/2000s, I did seem to get fillings on my milk teeth even though as an adult my sweet tooth is a million times worse than it was as a child. It does make you wonder...
On the topic of oral hygiene, thoroughly scraping my tongue as part of brushing my teeth is a ritual, as is ensuring my tonsils are free of stones. Drinking plenty of water helps, as does swallowing a few whole cardamom pods.
Bad breath is something many are oblivious to unfortunately and brushing teeth is in my opinion not the main way to tackle this.
2009 - scaling and polishing.
2015 - scaling and polishing.
December 2021 - scaling and polishing.
It is coincidence that I've only had three appointments six years apart in the last 12 years, but all three dentists I've visited have said there's nothing wrong with my teeth.
I brush twice in the morning (once just isn't enough) and tend to then do so again at lunchtime / late in the afternoon before leaving work. If I don't manage that then I'll brush twice before bed.
Mouthwash now and then.
I use those plastic toothpicks or dental floss intermittently.
I also safely scrape off and remove plaque from my lower incisors myself.
I have no fillings in any of my adult teeth, but even growing up in the 1990s/2000s, I did seem to get fillings on my milk teeth even though as an adult my sweet tooth is a million times worse than it was as a child. It does make you wonder...
On the topic of oral hygiene, thoroughly scraping my tongue as part of brushing my teeth is a ritual, as is ensuring my tonsils are free of stones. Drinking plenty of water helps, as does swallowing a few whole cardamom pods.
Bad breath is something many are oblivious to unfortunately and brushing teeth is in my opinion not the main way to tackle this.
MC Bodge said:
Last year, I had a replacement of an allegedly worn - but symptom free- old filling which was again carried out by a "therapist", who did not fill me with much confidence at all. Afterwards I was in sleep-preventing agony for days.
The dentist (who is far more interested in pushing his cosmetic treatments, and my teeth are fortunately straight and good colour anyway, so so he isn't interested), with barely a look at the tooth, immediately informed me that I would need a private specialist root canal for £700(?) or thereabouts.
I complained, got a refund for the filling, and pushed for a second opinion. The second dentist just replaced the filling correctly and all has been fine with it since....
As per the people above, the initial "dental therapist" tried what felt like many times to inject my gum, causing me a lot of pain, the anaesthetic didn't work very well (and the filling was done badly too). The dentist (who is far more interested in pushing his cosmetic treatments, and my teeth are fortunately straight and good colour anyway, so so he isn't interested), with barely a look at the tooth, immediately informed me that I would need a private specialist root canal for £700(?) or thereabouts.
I complained, got a refund for the filling, and pushed for a second opinion. The second dentist just replaced the filling correctly and all has been fine with it since....
The first (cosmetic enthusiast) dentist made a bit of a hash of trying to rectify the filling pain, and thankfully didn't manage to penetrate the root canal that they had intended to (as far as he was concerned the tooth was beyond repair, which was wrong), mostly because they did a poor job of anaesthetic too.
The second dentist managed to anaesthetise my tooth with no problems and successfully replace the filling.
Joey Deacon said:
Interestingly enough I was thinking only the other day how my both my teenage daughters don't have a single filling, yet by their age the majority of my molars had fillings. I used to dread going to the dentist as virtually every single time I would need a new filling. I never even thought that they might have given me unnecessary fillings, but the realisation this may have been the case has now really pissed me off.
As others have stated, since I have been an adult I have not had to have a single new filling, only replacements for existing ones.
I really wish I had teeth like my children's, and not full of NHS grey fillings.
Makes me ponder exactly the same things, is there a way I can get to see my dental records from my youth and see if my dentist at the time was drilling and filling for the hell of it?As others have stated, since I have been an adult I have not had to have a single new filling, only replacements for existing ones.
I really wish I had teeth like my children's, and not full of NHS grey fillings.
Skyedriver said:
davidc1 said:
How could these 'dentists' do such an awful thing to kids. Make me mad now we know what went down.
It's called abuse and if they were still alive I think we should have them in court!Years later at my first visit to a private dentist after a quick look in my mouth he said "I see you were a victim of NHS butchery"
This is an interesting thread, I am mid 40's and have a load of fillings from my younger days and reading this thread does make me wonder as I have not needed a filing for years, had to have a front on replaced that fell out but no drilling.
It has made me wonder if they all were required.
It has made me wonder if they all were required.
Reading through this thread suggests that all dentists of the past were on the NHS 'take' or all of them s
t at what they did.
Is it not the case that Dentistry has acquired better insight and procedures rather than it being a case of bad-practice in the past? Has diet changed that lessens decay? Has toothpaste and toothbrushes got better?
There was a time quite a way back when if someone had particularly bad teeth, they'd get them all taken out - including the good ones - and dentures provided as this was seen to save the NHS money over the course of the person's life. That may well have been appropriate at the time but probably only because there wasn't the knowledge to fix them.
t at what they did.Is it not the case that Dentistry has acquired better insight and procedures rather than it being a case of bad-practice in the past? Has diet changed that lessens decay? Has toothpaste and toothbrushes got better?
There was a time quite a way back when if someone had particularly bad teeth, they'd get them all taken out - including the good ones - and dentures provided as this was seen to save the NHS money over the course of the person's life. That may well have been appropriate at the time but probably only because there wasn't the knowledge to fix them.
StevieBee said:
Reading through this thread suggests that all dentists of the past were on the NHS 'take' or all of them st at what they did.
Is it not the case that Dentistry has acquired better insight and procedures rather than it being a case of bad-practice in the past? Has diet changed that lessens decay? Has toothpaste and toothbrushes got better?
There was a time quite a way back when if someone had particularly bad teeth, they'd get them all taken out - including the good ones - and dentures provided as this was seen to save the NHS money over the course of the person's life. That may well have been appropriate at the time but probably only because there wasn't the knowledge to fix them.
Your last paragraph seems somewhat contradictory.t at what they did.Is it not the case that Dentistry has acquired better insight and procedures rather than it being a case of bad-practice in the past? Has diet changed that lessens decay? Has toothpaste and toothbrushes got better?
There was a time quite a way back when if someone had particularly bad teeth, they'd get them all taken out - including the good ones - and dentures provided as this was seen to save the NHS money over the course of the person's life. That may well have been appropriate at the time but probably only because there wasn't the knowledge to fix them.
StevieBee said:
Reading through this thread suggests that all dentists of the past were on the NHS 'take' or all of them st at what they did.
Is it not the case that Dentistry has acquired better insight and procedures rather than it being a case of bad-practice in the past? Has diet changed that lessens decay? Has toothpaste and toothbrushes got better?
There was a time quite a way back when if someone had particularly bad teeth, they'd get them all taken out - including the good ones - and dentures provided as this was seen to save the NHS money over the course of the person's life. That may well have been appropriate at the time but probably only because there wasn't the knowledge to fix them.
It's still all about the money, or rather what's affordable. I understand this as the NHS has to prioritise with its limited resources.t at what they did.Is it not the case that Dentistry has acquired better insight and procedures rather than it being a case of bad-practice in the past? Has diet changed that lessens decay? Has toothpaste and toothbrushes got better?
There was a time quite a way back when if someone had particularly bad teeth, they'd get them all taken out - including the good ones - and dentures provided as this was seen to save the NHS money over the course of the person's life. That may well have been appropriate at the time but probably only because there wasn't the knowledge to fix them.
My old dentist told me the NHS didn't do preventative work under sedation (i.e. fillings) only extractions. Not sure if that's a local policy or national (or a lie). I thought prevention was better than cure though?
xx99xx said:
It's still all about the money, or rather what's affordable. I understand this as the NHS has to prioritise with its limited resources.
My old dentist told me the NHS didn't do preventative work under sedation (i.e. fillings) only extractions. Not sure if that's a local policy or national (or a lie). I thought prevention was better than cure though?
I seem like to recall my dentist when I was very young used to do fillings without anaesthesia. I remember it really hurting and him having to stop until I calmed down.My old dentist told me the NHS didn't do preventative work under sedation (i.e. fillings) only extractions. Not sure if that's a local policy or national (or a lie). I thought prevention was better than cure though?
Would that be correct, or my mind playing tricks? I know that for many years I was terrified at the prospect of going there.
I'm not so sure I agree with the idea that there was widespread, historical profiteering facilitated by unnecessary dental treatments.
That's not to say it didn't happen at all, of course.
I think it has more to do with a shift in focus from specifically trying to preserve the integrity of teeth to a more holistic oral health approach.
I suspect that in modern practice, the underlying and potentially unseen is treated as, if not more aggressively than common or garden tooth decay. The result being less drilling and filling and more promoting hygiene and mitigation of progressive disease.
That's not to say it didn't happen at all, of course.
I think it has more to do with a shift in focus from specifically trying to preserve the integrity of teeth to a more holistic oral health approach.
I suspect that in modern practice, the underlying and potentially unseen is treated as, if not more aggressively than common or garden tooth decay. The result being less drilling and filling and more promoting hygiene and mitigation of progressive disease.
There definitely was some abuse of the system back then for sure, absolutely!
But it does make me laugh people retrospectively self diagnosing 30 yrs on.
In short no one knows if you truly needed those fillings apart from the placing dentist.
The other side of the coin is assuming those fillings are still there 30yrs on without needing fixing, is there anything else in your life that you've owned and used several times a day for 30yrs with no repairs needed? Given the average lifespan of a filling is 10-15yrs you might want to thank your childhood dentists for being so skilled, seriously
Other aspects to consider are 'back then' diagnostic tools such as xrays weren't readily available or of poor quality. This meant that it's harder to 'keep an eye on it' like today as if you suspected decay it was safer to assume it was there and do a filling as the risk of being wrong and not doing it likely meant that you're having that tooth extracted a year later.
And finally as regards the statement 'there was nothing wrong with them!', how TF would you know?
Literally, the WHOLE POINT of check ups is to find problems before you become aware of them, otherwise there's no point whatsoever in doing them. Just come when you're in pain and 50% of the time the tooth needs extracting by that point, especially the older you are.
Final point : the NHS system back then rewarded over treatment financially. The NHS system today rewards under treatment financially. Your NHS dentist gets paid the same whether you need 1 filling that takes 10minutes or 10 fillings taking 2.5hrs. The average amount an NHS dentist gets paid for a root canal and filling is £30 in pocket pre tax. The average root canal and filling takes between 1.5 to 2hrs to do. As above the NHS also doesn't care if that same patient needs 5 root canals taking 10hrs, the dentist is still only getting £30.
But it does make me laugh people retrospectively self diagnosing 30 yrs on.
In short no one knows if you truly needed those fillings apart from the placing dentist.
The other side of the coin is assuming those fillings are still there 30yrs on without needing fixing, is there anything else in your life that you've owned and used several times a day for 30yrs with no repairs needed? Given the average lifespan of a filling is 10-15yrs you might want to thank your childhood dentists for being so skilled, seriously
Other aspects to consider are 'back then' diagnostic tools such as xrays weren't readily available or of poor quality. This meant that it's harder to 'keep an eye on it' like today as if you suspected decay it was safer to assume it was there and do a filling as the risk of being wrong and not doing it likely meant that you're having that tooth extracted a year later.
And finally as regards the statement 'there was nothing wrong with them!', how TF would you know?
Literally, the WHOLE POINT of check ups is to find problems before you become aware of them, otherwise there's no point whatsoever in doing them. Just come when you're in pain and 50% of the time the tooth needs extracting by that point, especially the older you are.Final point : the NHS system back then rewarded over treatment financially. The NHS system today rewards under treatment financially. Your NHS dentist gets paid the same whether you need 1 filling that takes 10minutes or 10 fillings taking 2.5hrs. The average amount an NHS dentist gets paid for a root canal and filling is £30 in pocket pre tax. The average root canal and filling takes between 1.5 to 2hrs to do. As above the NHS also doesn't care if that same patient needs 5 root canals taking 10hrs, the dentist is still only getting £30.
Wow, people really don't like dentists do they!
Seems like many people feel that they had dental treatment that wasn't needed back in the day. I would be interested to hear what would make someone think they DID need treatment?
If you feel that pain is the indicator of needing a filling, then i'm afraid you have a lot of root canals or extractions coming your way! Unfortunately (or fortunately I guess!), dental decay is generally painless in its early stages, this is why routine dental visits are recommended so that the dentist can examine you and if decay is diagnosed, it can be treated early to prevent the need for more complicated, more expensive treatments. If the decay is left untreated, it will continue to spread through the tooth towards the nerve, this is when you may start to experience pain/toothache, and generally at this point a filling will not solve the problem - these teeth tend to need root canal treatment or extraction.
On this basis, it is understandable why people feel they had treatment that wasn't needed - as they had no symptoms.
Regarding whether or not dentists of the 70s/80s did treatment unnecessarily to gain financial reward is difficult to determine as I only qualified around 15 years ago. Saying that, a few points about dentistry in that era - there was certainly less focus on prevention both by dentists and with regards to health education, dental materials were rather basic - amalgam requires extensive preparation of the tooth in order to retain it, diagnostic methods (digital x-rays etc) were not as accurate as modern dentistry.
People mention that dentists were rewarded for over treatment - they basically got paid for each treatment they did (shock horror!) and this somehow means they carried out unnecessary treatment to benefit financially. Private dentistry still works on this 'fee per item' basis, so surely this thought process should still apply? I can assure you that there are plenty of teeth out there that need treatment without needing to invent things.
Saying all this, there are always a few rotten apples in any line of work, so find a dentist you trust. I've always found it very beneficial to have an intra-oral camera (small camera for taking photos in the mouth), to show patients the problems with their teeth, or even show them the decay that was hiding underneath an old filling or in between the teeth.
There also seems to be a dislike of dentists 'doing well', people talk about the cars they drive etc etc. As highly skilled professionals who study for 5 years, and work stressful jobs, dentistry pays a reasonable salary, but probably not as much people think, certainly not as much as some other professions. Also keep in mind that dental practices have huge overheads, hence the cost of private dentistry may seem expensive, last I heard the average cost to run 1 dental surgery (as in 1 room, not the whole practice) is around £150/hour, as such these costs need to be covered.
I hope this gives people a bit more insight into 'the other side of the drill'!
Also very happy to answer any questions people might have.
Seems like many people feel that they had dental treatment that wasn't needed back in the day. I would be interested to hear what would make someone think they DID need treatment?
If you feel that pain is the indicator of needing a filling, then i'm afraid you have a lot of root canals or extractions coming your way! Unfortunately (or fortunately I guess!), dental decay is generally painless in its early stages, this is why routine dental visits are recommended so that the dentist can examine you and if decay is diagnosed, it can be treated early to prevent the need for more complicated, more expensive treatments. If the decay is left untreated, it will continue to spread through the tooth towards the nerve, this is when you may start to experience pain/toothache, and generally at this point a filling will not solve the problem - these teeth tend to need root canal treatment or extraction.
On this basis, it is understandable why people feel they had treatment that wasn't needed - as they had no symptoms.
Regarding whether or not dentists of the 70s/80s did treatment unnecessarily to gain financial reward is difficult to determine as I only qualified around 15 years ago. Saying that, a few points about dentistry in that era - there was certainly less focus on prevention both by dentists and with regards to health education, dental materials were rather basic - amalgam requires extensive preparation of the tooth in order to retain it, diagnostic methods (digital x-rays etc) were not as accurate as modern dentistry.
People mention that dentists were rewarded for over treatment - they basically got paid for each treatment they did (shock horror!) and this somehow means they carried out unnecessary treatment to benefit financially. Private dentistry still works on this 'fee per item' basis, so surely this thought process should still apply? I can assure you that there are plenty of teeth out there that need treatment without needing to invent things.
Saying all this, there are always a few rotten apples in any line of work, so find a dentist you trust. I've always found it very beneficial to have an intra-oral camera (small camera for taking photos in the mouth), to show patients the problems with their teeth, or even show them the decay that was hiding underneath an old filling or in between the teeth.
There also seems to be a dislike of dentists 'doing well', people talk about the cars they drive etc etc. As highly skilled professionals who study for 5 years, and work stressful jobs, dentistry pays a reasonable salary, but probably not as much people think, certainly not as much as some other professions. Also keep in mind that dental practices have huge overheads, hence the cost of private dentistry may seem expensive, last I heard the average cost to run 1 dental surgery (as in 1 room, not the whole practice) is around £150/hour, as such these costs need to be covered.
I hope this gives people a bit more insight into 'the other side of the drill'!
Also very happy to answer any questions people might have.
Edited by Richmc on Thursday 20th January 22:29
honda_exige said:
The NHS system today rewards under treatment financially. Your NHS dentist gets paid the same whether you need 1 filling that takes 10minutes or 10 fillings taking 2.5hrs. The average amount an NHS dentist gets paid for a root canal and filling is £30 in pocket pre tax. The average root canal and filling takes between 1.5 to 2hrs to do. As above the NHS also doesn't care if that same patient needs 5 root canals taking 10hrs, the dentist is still only getting £30.
I find that difficult to believe. Why would 5 root canals pay the same as 1?MC Bodge said:
honda_exige said:
The NHS system today rewards under treatment financially. Your NHS dentist gets paid the same whether you need 1 filling that takes 10minutes or 10 fillings taking 2.5hrs. The average amount an NHS dentist gets paid for a root canal and filling is £30 in pocket pre tax. The average root canal and filling takes between 1.5 to 2hrs to do. As above the NHS also doesn't care if that same patient needs 5 root canals taking 10hrs, the dentist is still only getting £30.
I find that difficult to believe. Why would 5 root canals pay the same as 1?"The important point to grasp is that under the old NHS contract dentists were paid for every item of treatment they provided: examination, filling, crown or denture. Under the new system they are paid per course of treatment, irrespective of how many items are provided within it. Thus a course of treatment involving one filling (3 UDAs) attracts the same fee as one containing five fillings, a root treatment and an extraction (also 3 UDAs). This factor is behind much of the resentment against this system."
https://www.nature.com/articles/vital1131
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