30 somethings - are you going to vax?
Discussion
V6 Pushfit said:
Brave Fart said:
What concerns me is the government's continuing use of behavioural psychology designed to scare people into making the "correct" decision. For example, the thinly veiled threat to enforce Covid passports for nightclubs "and other large events". Given that the vaccinated can still transmit the virus, a vaccine passport makes no sense, and can only be yet another example of the campaign of fear employed by this government. Discrimination against those who have declined the vaccine is, in my opinion, morally wrong.
You do get why they would like Covid passports don’t you? grudas said:
witko999 said:
This paragraph is such regurgitated rubbish I'm not sure where to begin.
Many dead, trashed economy, only way out is vaccines, take the vaccine, its safer than Covid..... Did you even read my last post?
I think you feel too invincible. Now my friends group is all 23-32 and 2 of them have got life changing damage from covid. I personally don't want any of that... No matter how small the risk the vaccine risk is much smaller. Seeing my mate go down with it bad at the start of it was scary.. then another recently got hit and still has no voice and permanently damaged lungs. First had no choice, 2nd made a choice of no vaccine, wonder what state he'd be in now if had one. Guess we'll never know but personally never say never. Many dead, trashed economy, only way out is vaccines, take the vaccine, its safer than Covid..... Did you even read my last post?
Again, thoughts with your friends but let’s not let our emotions get in the way of the hard facts.
ColdoRS said:
Sorry to hear about your mates but can we take also acknowledge the millions, of 23-32 year olds who have contracted covid(many more than once) and had 0 problems? That is the stat that is of greater interest I’m afraid.
Again, thoughts with your friends but let’s not let our emotions get in the way of the hard facts.
What about hard facts and stats about vaccines? Surely anyone super risk aware should realize that vaccine is lower risk than covid so realistically you'd pick vaccine? Again, thoughts with your friends but let’s not let our emotions get in the way of the hard facts.
grudas said:
What about hard facts and stats about vaccines? Surely anyone super risk aware should realize that vaccine is lower risk than covid so realistically you'd pick vaccine?
Hard facts are good - the first friend I new to get jabbed died 5 days later. Pretty clear, hard unambiguous fact - he was perfectly healthy beforehand. I know many people friends and family who have taken it since and have had no longer term issues - when the first one is a kill shot, it's kind of memorable. It was not recorded as vaccine related, I doubt it it's the only similar case where it hasn't been acknowledged.
Many people are grieving and can't be bothered with the aggravation.
grudas said:
ColdoRS said:
Sorry to hear about your mates but can we take also acknowledge the millions, of 23-32 year olds who have contracted covid(many more than once) and had 0 problems? That is the stat that is of greater interest I’m afraid.
Again, thoughts with your friends but let’s not let our emotions get in the way of the hard facts.
What about hard facts and stats about vaccines? Surely anyone super risk aware should realize that vaccine is lower risk than covid so realistically you'd pick vaccine? Again, thoughts with your friends but let’s not let our emotions get in the way of the hard facts.
Risk of Covid death is far lower than risk of an untested (over any long term) jab.
It shouldn’t be open to argument that people can reasonably take different views when it comes to weighing a known but very small risk (Covid) against unknown but unlikely risks (vaccine adverse effects).
That is very obviously a matter for personal risk judgment. It’s not quantitive. The two types of risk are not comparable.
That is very obviously a matter for personal risk judgment. It’s not quantitive. The two types of risk are not comparable.
ORD said:
It shouldn’t be open to argument that people can reasonably take different views when it comes to weighing a known but very small risk (Covid) against unknown but unlikely risks (vaccine adverse effects).
That is very obviously a matter for personal risk judgment. It’s not quantitive. The two types of risk are not comparable.
I’ll leave you to work out your own risk in detail but don’t know why you would want a ‘likely’ 2 week feeling dreadful and concerned as a minimum, with long term nervous system and lung issues as a probable maximum. That is very obviously a matter for personal risk judgment. It’s not quantitive. The two types of risk are not comparable.
To most (90%) it’s a no-brainer.
Elatino1 said:
Lower risk? You mean with Zero longterm testing?
Risk of Covid death is far lower than risk of an untested (over any long term) jab.
But covid isn't a binary thing, we do know that dying is not a thing 30 something's should worry about, it's the long term damage to your organs? What are long term effects of covid? Has it been tested? Where and how please? What's to say that those who had covid, pulled through are not going to have some heart damage appear in 10 years? No one knows. Those types of vaccines are not new, they're adapted to work with covid and that is it. Risk of Covid death is far lower than risk of an untested (over any long term) jab.
digger_R said:
Hard facts are good - the first friend I new to get jabbed died 5 days later.
Pretty clear, hard unambiguous fact - he was perfectly healthy beforehand. I know many people friends and family who have taken it since and have had no longer term issues - when the first one is a kill shot, it's kind of memorable. It was not recorded as vaccine related, I doubt it it's the only similar case where it hasn't been acknowledged.
Many people are grieving and can't be bothered with the aggravation.
How do you know it is vaccine related death then if it was not recorded as one? We've got around a thousand dead from vaccination directly out of 40m+ so it does happen. Pretty clear, hard unambiguous fact - he was perfectly healthy beforehand. I know many people friends and family who have taken it since and have had no longer term issues - when the first one is a kill shot, it's kind of memorable. It was not recorded as vaccine related, I doubt it it's the only similar case where it hasn't been acknowledged.
Many people are grieving and can't be bothered with the aggravation.
digger_R said:
Hard facts are good - the first friend I new to get jabbed died 5 days later.
Pretty clear, hard unambiguous fact - he was perfectly healthy beforehand. I know many people friends and family who have taken it since and have had no longer term issues - when the first one is a kill shot, it's kind of memorable. It was not recorded as vaccine related, I doubt it it's the only similar case where it hasn't been acknowledged.
Many people are grieving and can't be bothered with the aggravation.
I’m sorry for your loss. What did the post mortem determine to be the cause?Pretty clear, hard unambiguous fact - he was perfectly healthy beforehand. I know many people friends and family who have taken it since and have had no longer term issues - when the first one is a kill shot, it's kind of memorable. It was not recorded as vaccine related, I doubt it it's the only similar case where it hasn't been acknowledged.
Many people are grieving and can't be bothered with the aggravation.
As to your statement none of us know that we’re perfectly healthy, we might think we are but that’s not necessarily the truth. Many of us will have some pretty horrible things lurking under a healthy exterior. Think of people like Eriksen at the Euros, perfectly healthy young man, peak of physical fitness, has a heart attack. That’s not me dismissing vaccine related incidents btw the jab could well have caused a reaction and if it did it’s important to establish how and why.
grudas said:
But covid isn't a binary thing, we do know that dying is not a thing 30 something's should worry about, it's the long term damage to your organs? What are long term effects of covid? Has it been tested? Where and how please? What's to say that those who had covid, pulled through are not going to have some heart damage appear in 10 years? No one knows. Those types of vaccines are not new, they're adapted to work with covid and that is it.
The bit in bold is the bit where I think that the media and politicians have let us down. they need to make clear that the vaccine is not new. It was orginally developed for SARS I believe, and has been modified to respond to Covid RNA.It is well tested
djc206 said:
I’m sorry for your loss. What did the post mortem determine to be the cause?
As to your statement none of us know that we’re perfectly healthy, we might think we are but that’s not necessarily the truth. Many of us will have some pretty horrible things lurking under a healthy exterior. Think of people like Eriksen at the Euros, perfectly healthy young man, peak of physical fitness, has a heart attack. That’s not me dismissing vaccine related incidents btw the jab could well have caused a reaction and if it did it’s important to establish how and why.
There was no post mortem - this was back in February in India, as is usual the body is cremated within 24-48 hrs.As to your statement none of us know that we’re perfectly healthy, we might think we are but that’s not necessarily the truth. Many of us will have some pretty horrible things lurking under a healthy exterior. Think of people like Eriksen at the Euros, perfectly healthy young man, peak of physical fitness, has a heart attack. That’s not me dismissing vaccine related incidents btw the jab could well have caused a reaction and if it did it’s important to establish how and why.
He woke up around 3am in the middle of the night, with intense fever called his servant who said he was spasming and died within 15 mins.
His doctor suspected a blood clot or stroke as the cause of death.
To those who say how do you know it was the vaccine - we don't as there was no post-mortem. When you live for 40 years of life with no recorded issues, regular health checks and a clean bill of health (he had very good doctors) - and something like that happens with a jab that 'may' have side effects. You'd have to be some kind of Neanderthal to rule it out a correlation.
What I find absurd is the people who get become defensive about raising the question - one 'friend' suggested that he must have picked up covid while waiting in line to get his shot
Edited by digger_R on Thursday 12th August 09:08
digger_R said:
There was no post mortem - this was back in February in India, as is usual the body is cremated within 24-48 hrs.
He woke up around 3am in the middle of the night, with intense fever called his servant who said he was spasming and died within 15 mins.
His doctor suspected a blood clot or stroke as the cause of death.
To those who say how do you know it was the vaccine - we don't as there was no post-mortem. When you live for 40 years of life with no recorded issues, regular health checks and a clean bill of health (he had very good doctors) - and something like that happens with a jab that 'may' have side effects. You'd have to be some kind of Neanderthal to rule it out a correlation.
There certainly could be a causal relationship but without any post mortem it remains pure speculation. That there was no attempt to establish cause is both sad and disappointing. Clots and strokes are both quite common in covid patients btw, clots especially so.He woke up around 3am in the middle of the night, with intense fever called his servant who said he was spasming and died within 15 mins.
His doctor suspected a blood clot or stroke as the cause of death.
To those who say how do you know it was the vaccine - we don't as there was no post-mortem. When you live for 40 years of life with no recorded issues, regular health checks and a clean bill of health (he had very good doctors) - and something like that happens with a jab that 'may' have side effects. You'd have to be some kind of Neanderthal to rule it out a correlation.
digger_R said:
M
What I find absurd is the people who get become defensive about raising the question - one 'friend' suggested that he must have picked up covid while waiting in line to get his shot
I noticed your edit after I replied.What I find absurd is the people who get become defensive about raising the question - one 'friend' suggested that he must have picked up covid while waiting in line to get his shot
Edited by digger_R on Thursday 12th August 09:08
That seems more likely to me but I’m not a doctor. The fever related to vaccination (any not just covid) tends to be fairly immediate not delayed so a fever 5 days after the event combined with the proposed cause of death would certainly point towards covid itself as a possible suspect. His family have been let down not getting an answer either way.
Brave Fart said:
It's good that you accept that declining the vaccine is not stupid; that's a change in tone from your usual "I respect your choice but it's a moronic one" line.
However, you say that the government should not support such decisions, which I find odd. I believe that each person's choice regarding the vaccine should be none of the government's business, beyond providing facts and a recommendation.
What concerns me is the government's continuing use of behavioural psychology designed to scare people into making the "correct" decision. For example, the thinly veiled threat to enforce Covid passports for nightclubs "and other large events". Given that the vaccinated can still transmit the virus, a vaccine passport makes no sense, and can only be yet another example of the campaign of fear employed by this government. Discrimination against those who have declined the vaccine is, in my opinion, morally wrong.
Typo I'm afraid. I still think it's moronic.However, you say that the government should not support such decisions, which I find odd. I believe that each person's choice regarding the vaccine should be none of the government's business, beyond providing facts and a recommendation.
What concerns me is the government's continuing use of behavioural psychology designed to scare people into making the "correct" decision. For example, the thinly veiled threat to enforce Covid passports for nightclubs "and other large events". Given that the vaccinated can still transmit the virus, a vaccine passport makes no sense, and can only be yet another example of the campaign of fear employed by this government. Discrimination against those who have declined the vaccine is, in my opinion, morally wrong.
I think it's morally and most certainly legally wrong not to make efforts to protect individuals under a duty of care.
The transmission risk is reduced. I know you don't understand that, but that doesn't matter to it being true.
djc206 said:
I noticed your edit after I replied.
That seems more likely to me but I’m not a doctor. The fever related to vaccination (any not just covid) tends to be fairly immediate not delayed so a fever 5 days after the event combined with the proposed cause of death would certainly point towards covid itself as a possible suspect. His family have been let down not getting an answer either way.
Of course always a possibility that he got covid in that time though he had zero symptoms until he woke up in the middle of the night. His cook, maid etc were all in close proximity in the days before/after and all tested negative so not entirely likely in my view.That seems more likely to me but I’m not a doctor. The fever related to vaccination (any not just covid) tends to be fairly immediate not delayed so a fever 5 days after the event combined with the proposed cause of death would certainly point towards covid itself as a possible suspect. His family have been let down not getting an answer either way.
What makes it even more sad, his wife had asked him not to get it and wait as she had concerns about safety - he did it while she was away on a trip.
digger_R said:
Of course always a possibility that he got covid in that time though he had zero symptoms until he woke up in the middle of the night. His cook, maid etc were all in close proximity in the days before/after and all tested negative so not entirely likely in my view.
What makes it even more sad, his wife had asked him not to get it and wait as she had concerns about safety - he did it while she was away on a trip.
That there was vaccine hesitancy in the family would, as someone with no emotional attachment to the scenario, I believe lead all of you down the path of blaming the vaccine rather than the virus that was significantly more likely to cause such symptoms on that timescale and with that tragic outcome but no one will ever know. What makes it even more sad, his wife had asked him not to get it and wait as she had concerns about safety - he did it while she was away on a trip.
ORD said:
It shouldn’t be open to argument that people can reasonably take different views when it comes to weighing a known but very small risk (Covid) against unknown but unlikely risks (vaccine adverse effects).
That is very obviously a matter for personal risk judgment. It’s not quantitive. The two types of risk are not comparable.
Well firstly, vaccine safety is, by definition, a quantitative measurement. That is to say all the symptoms, adverse events, side effects etc. are measured recorded, counted, compared and signals analysed. Hundreds of thousands of data points, many are not freely available in the public domain.That is very obviously a matter for personal risk judgment. It’s not quantitive. The two types of risk are not comparable.
Secondly, the real risk here, is the predisposition and long term effects of COVID-19 which are complex and multifactorial. We are only really beginning to analyse them, and so it requires expert interpretation. It is however, also quantitative, in so much as the data is counted. It should also be observed that many of the factors and predispositions you could not possibly be aware of for instance how would you know if you have a genetic predisposition to lung injury?
The idea that Joe Bloggs is best placed to make the assessment, with no training, no experience, no data, and no way of calculating their own risk is just ridiculous. We have doctors for a reason, and they've been very clear on what the guidance is here.
Again, you might not like my opinion, you don't have to, but to ignore sound medical advice is (and I'll try to be more polite as I respect your opinion elsewhere on the forum), "not wise".
Edited by Prof Prolapse on Thursday 12th August 10:04
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