Testosterone Replacement Therapy

[Regiment]

Just wondering if any of you guys out there can give me a bit of advice?

Went to the doctor recently for an issue with my ankle, got bones spurs on the back of my heel bone that sometimes interfere with my Achilles’ tendon, anyway, one of the things I asked for though was a full set of blood tests to check everything over as it’s a long time since I last had one and I’m 34.

One of the things that came back was my testosterone level is between 13-14, I’ll check exact level when I get home tonight. This seems on the low range but I know the 3 important things to check are Test, free Test and Eostrogen, I believe my doctor only checked Test levels.

Now my questions are, is anyone here taking it at all?

I know 13-14 isn’t extremely low and is in the “acceptable range” according to the NHS so probably won’t be able to get TRT on the NHS so just wondering if I’m worrying for nothing or if I should be getting my test booster “artificially”. I do lift 4x a week and do cardio twice so a boost in Test would be lovely to help me with the gym but it’s more my overall health that I’m interested in. A boost in lifting numbers is great but not good enough for me to be screwing around with hormones.

Also, if I go on TRT, would it be a situation whereby I can never come off it as my body will have gotten so used to TRT that it wouldn’t be able to go back to “normal” levels?

Also, do I need to take Eostrogen blockers as well? I don’t want my test boosting to levels of a Mr Olympia athlete pumping himself full of steroids but it would be nice to be up to the higher range of normal.

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Darkslider said:

I know it's not your motivation, but you'll get a much better response on a dedicated bodybuilding forum, try a search on UK muscle for example TRT questions are posted almost daily.

Be wary of mentioning that you lift to your GP though, they will immediately suspect steroid abuse and wash their hands of you according to most people's experiences.

In terms of bloods your GPs scope is fairly limited in what he can do, it's worth paying for a full sports hormone test from somewhere like Medichecks, then you can at least visit your GP armed with the results and some idea of the direction you need to take next.

Everything i have read seems to suggest that NHS GPs are very much ignorant to TRT and can be very apprehensive about getting people on it, even if they're very low to a point where it's causing serious issues for them. My results suggest that my Test is low but not something to worry about and i have never knowingly had issues at all. Reading up as much as i can but my definite worry was that if i go on TRT privately paying £60 - £80 a month for gels/injections, my body will never recover if i come off.

A few people are recommending booking a private appointment to see an endocrinoligist privately who'll be a lot more educated when it comes to what i should be worried about...either way my lifts at the gym are going up, my strength is beyond that of the average guy, i'm fit and healthy.

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Managed to get the paperwork from my blood test.

Only thing tested for in terms of hormones was Serum Testosterone level, which is 13.4nmol/L. The range is supposed to be 8.6-29.

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stargazer30 said:

I had my T levels checked about 3 years ago and GP whilst agreeing to do bloods told me straight up even if my T levels were too low she would not prescribe any sort of HRT. Apparently its not considered a priority for men. I had mentioned I was starting gym training though.

Anyway I have a family member who is on permanent HRT for a far more serious and genetic condition and honestly, I'd avoid it if possible. Try the natural route first!

1. If you don't lift then start. Not the girly dumbbells either, learn to do the big compound lifts and do sets in the 5 to 8 rep range with heavy weight. Your body will up T levels if it needs to build muscle and compounds (especially dead lifts) will force it to.
2. If you fat/overweight/skinnyfat (Body fat >22%) then get that sorted too. Cleaning up the diet is essential for this as is #1 above. Dieting without exercise can lead to loss of lean mass. Being overweight actually reduces T and ups Estrogen too.
3. Sleep, 8 hours religiously. Bad sleep will stuff your T levels, gym recovery as that's when your body produces T and fixes stuff.
4. Stress - guaranteed to stuff everything if its not in check.
5. Sex - not sure of the science but it works.

I know that's a pretty tough lot to do, you'll probably find if you fix it you'll fix a lot more then your t levels! From my own personal transformation efforts over the last 3 years these are what I've found helped me the most.

1. I do live pretty religiously anyway, i currently do the Boring But Big 531 program which i'm enjoying.
2. I'm currently at 218lbs and 14% bodyfat.
3. I sleep 8 hours but it's not a solid 8 hours as my sleep can be disturbed a couple of times by trips to the toilet. This i've been told can be a sign of low testosterone as well.
4. Bit stressed with issues going on with the girlfriend, she's not been well for a good few years now.
5. See above.


Just to update everyone as been a while since i've replied on here but i had a blood test last week that will pretty much cover all of my hormones and also cover food/micronutrient deficiencies as well so i can check if my Vitamin, iron, zinc, etc levels are low, these should all be fine with my diet being solid. I've got a telephone appointment booked for Friday afternoon to go through the results of the blood tests, all of this has been done privately so it was £140. As i've read more and more stuff, it really does seem horrifying some of the stories i've heard of GPs just prescribing stuff like anti-depressants and Viagra when it's obviously low testosterone.

Got to see what they say on Friday.

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ORD said:

A rue 14% at 218 pounds is better than pretty good. It’s exteaodinary. The vast majority of big guys are more like 20%, if they’re lucky.

I’m 6’5” so just end up looking a bit skinny, have no goals at all regarding weight and bf but I want to keep sub 15 and start to actually look like someone who is strong. Reading what a lot of people say regarding going on TRT, I’m expecting a boost in strength but lots of water retention as well as my hormones stabilise.

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popeyewhite said:

A friend in his late forties was on exactly 12 and managed to persuade the local GP to issue him with some cream/ patch or something. Trouble was he's a big lad and decided that to feel 'normal' again would take rather more than the advised dose, so went through the stuff rather quickly. Said he felt good again and was horny as hell, but couldn't sleep. Gp referral got him to an endocrinologist, where my friend apparently tried to persuade the endo chap that what he really needed was a regular prescription for test enanthate, administered intramuscularly Not surprisingly he was told there was no chance, unless he lived in the States, where they are a bit more progressive about these things. So he's back on double patches/cream.

The US, it seems to be a lot more about the single Ester Testosterone injections, UK is a lot more about Sustanon 250 which is a multi Ester Testosterone shots. All the stories I’ve read about the NHS is why I’ve gone straight to a specialist clinic, even if it means paying for blood tests and the test off my own back. Another massive issues with the NHS and GPS is that they don’t generally test a mans Oestrogen/Estradial levels as “that’s a woman’s hormone”. A mans sex drive relies so much on the right amount of Oestrogen, too little and Scarlet Johansson could be dancing naked in front of you and you’ll still be more interested in the football.

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Looks like the lab I sent the blood tests to completely screwed them up and sent back a load of gibberish...hopefully they can sort it without me waiting another 3 weeks for a blood test.

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Just to update everyone, second set of blood tests came back with a value of 11.2 and a free testosterone value of 0.205 in a range of 0.2-0.62. Everything has been sent off to the doctor for final approval which should come either today or tomorrow hopefully. Next step after that is to sort out dosage and having a home visit from a nurse to go through teaching me how to inject but my presumption is that it'll be around 100mg or so of Sustanon every 5-7 days, then another blood test after 6 weeks to see where my Test and Oestrogen is.

I must admit, i am excited to see what boost i get at the gym and it'd also be nice to actually start to get some muscular definition beyond just the skinner guy that out lifts the muscular guys.

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ELUSIVEJIM said:

Has anyone used Medichecks for Testosterone levels?

I did get a test done in the last few months from the GP but it came back slightly low but nothing to worry about.

Daily anxiety and struggling so wanted to have this checked out again.

Worth it?

What was your Testosterone level? Majority of GPs won’t do TRT unless you are below the scale ie the test level of the average 80year old man AND suffering serious symptoms. A lot of them won’t test your Oestrogen levels as “Oestrogen levels aren’t important in men” despite causing moody swings, poor erections, fatigue, and no/low libido if it’s to low or too high.

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popeyewhite said:

Very little, I'm afraid. A bbing beginner's first cycle of sustanon would be in the region of 400mg every 4/5 days. It's quite easy to actually walk into a gym and buy the stuff so you can always supplement what you get for free!

Never touched test or any AAS before as I’ve always been so terrified of screwing with my hormones. If I touch them now or overdosing the test without talking it through with the doctor/medical facilitator first, they’ll stop my treatment. It’ll be nice to see what boost I get with test about 3-4 times higher than now though, that’ll put me at the very top end of a natural limit, steroid users will be double that minimum. Some of the dosing I’ve seen for test though for the big powerlifters are 2.5g of test a week + aas, but I won’t discuss that in here as I know nothing about those sorts of cycles and this isn’t the place.

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ORD said:

From what I have read, low dose testosterone will have no effect whatsoever in terms of gaining muscle.

Reading other’s accounts, the big difference will come from improved mental clarity and a lot more energy, it’ll also help to improve recovery as well as I’m going into every workout still recovering from the last workout. There’s a lot of people that are on normal TRT doses that go from 8-11nmol to 30+nmol Test levels that have said they had a strength increase, that’s a 3x jump in test so a strength increase should be experienced surely?

I’m tracking all my workouts so we’ll see, hopefully it doesn’t take too many months for the doctor to get my dosage dialled in and hopefully not require any AI either.

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ELUSIVEJIM said:

Sounds like you have been on quite a journey yourself. It's not easy having these symptoms as you well know.

It's these "normal" ranges that get me. Surely if you are in a low normal it makes a big difference to someone in say the middle of that scale.

I have spent a long time looking into different combinations like yourself. Conventional, alternative, food related and basically most different therapies.

Have tried different meds from the Doctor but like yourself I was not enjoying the negative parts of the medication. Mostly it felt like I was being sedated rather than an issue being fixed.

Again thank you for your insight

With me, it’s been just general brain fog, anxiety and just a general overal feeling that I’m dragging a big rock my entire life. Even waking up in a morning after a week off, my hips and legs feel like I’ve squared big loads the day before so always takes a while for me to get going.

Doctor has given his final approval for me, starting dosage is 125mg of Sustanon every 5 days, works out to 160mg a week with no AI to begin with and then a follow up blood test at 6 weeks to check levels. My worry is my Oestrogen gets a little high but I’ve got a list of symptoms to look out for anyway.

Saw Joe Rogan interview he did with an ex US Army guy I think where he was thinking about killing him self, turns out the explosions and shooting was causing issues with his body that caused low testosterone.

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ELUSIVEJIM said:

Great to hear your doctor is willing to approve you to have Sustanon. Must come as a relief to perhaps have the answer to why you have been having anxiety.

What were your T level if you don't mind me asking?

Very interesting about the ex US Army guy with the low T.

Past trauma especially at a young age seems to really mess up the mind unfortunately.

13.4nmol in January and 10.9 (I think) end of June.

Today is the day, just got a box of needles, syringes, plasters and Sustanon sat next to me and a nurse coming round this evening to coach me on my first injection. How I’m feeling isn’t helped by the fact I have mild food poisoning from dodgy chicken yesterday evening so everything feels a bit weak, I’m also dreading the first few weeks as well a bit keeping an eye out for problems with my Oestrogen and my testicles shrivelling up a bit.

Edited by Regiment on Tuesday 10th July 12:33

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Got delayed a bit so had my first injection last night, quite anti-climatic to be honest as didn’t really know what to expect. Injection went fine, bum is a bit sore still but feels fine...as for how I felt afterwards, I didn’t feel anything at all. This morning, if there is a difference, it’s very small but do know it’ll take a few weeks. Dosage was 125mg of Sustanon. Not sure if it’s in my mind but I’m sure I can feel my plums turning into sultanas already lol.

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Nightmare regarding the food poisoning. Hope you feel better soon. Shame it's happened when your about to be getting your injections.

I am sure you will start to feel the benefits rather than the negative side effects. I have heard people going back to their GP if they are having issues and then they are put on another one to try.

I got a home test after the doctor stated my level were low but still on the normal levels. I decided to test myself and it came back 9.75nmol.

Might get this checked again along with cortisol as suggested above.

Let us know how you get on and I hope you feel better soon

Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Tuesday 10th July 14:42

With levels that low, if you do have a lot of the symptoms and don’t mind being a little out of pocket, I’d definitely look at getting TRT. Talking to the NHS nurse last night that coached me with my injection, the NHS is definitely a struggle to deal with when it comes to TRT.

Edited by Regiment on Thursday 12th July 09:35

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ELUSIVEJIM said:

So it must come down to cost then? Or do they need to keep a check on you hence why your not getting more than a bottle?

Some of it might be also that they’re worried you’ll start flogging gell to all your buddies at the gym. I don’t know how true this is but someone told me, quite cynically, that it’s easier for a woman to get testosterone injections through the NHS, for sex reassignment, than a guy because men shouldn’t have high testosterone as it’s linked with aggression and sex.

Not going the NHS route, so far to this point, has cost me
£140 for the initial blood test which tests everything e.g. vitamins, cholesterol, thyroid, testosterone, free testosterone, Oestrogen, shbg, etc. They did accept the first NHS blood test as you need 2 blood tests.
£180 for a doctors appointment, done over the phone, to go over symptoms I’m experiencing and my blood test results.
£140 for the first months dosage with injections equipment and a nurse to coach me on how to inject.
£100 a month there after for the monthly dosage of test and supplies + I need another blood test at the 6week mark to check levels and then all going well, another blood test at the 6 month mark and every 6 month there after.

Prices are rough but this was through a company called Balance My Hormones, I have been told there’s another company that’s a bit cheaper so might change over after the 6 month mark.

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Day 3 after first test shot.

I have a dynamic stretching routine that I normally do 3 times a week and I’ve done this same routine for a good few months now and really struggle to see any improvements. The stretching routine will basically start with a 10 minute warm up followed by 3x10 minute rounds. I normally feel worn out and frustrated even during the warm up phase, legs and groin will feel tight and everything will feel like I did a heavy squat session at the gym the previous day. I won’t get into a nice rhythm and feel comfortable stretching until at least the 2nd round and then relaxed by the 3rd round. This morning, I woke up and my legs felt better than they’ve felt for a long time, went for a good 25 minutes run which I felt went reasonably well, same as I normally do but nothing felt tight, then during the warm up phase of my stretch, everything just again felt so much more relaxed and felt so much more focussed and I was taking things slower, being more focused on form, definitely felt noticeably better.

Today is also the first time since Wednesday night where my arse hasn’t been a bit sore, it’s not been uncomfortable or painful, just like there was a bruise on my arse.

Weighed myself as well this morning and checked body fat with some electronic scales, so not accurate but it’ll give me a trend.

Down to 15.3% body fat from 15.4% last week. Body weight has fallen from 221.4lbs to 221lbs as well over the same period.

Scabutz said:

Your body stops making its own, my knackers are noticeable smaller than they were. If you stop your body will start again but for me it would just go back to not making enough. If you abuse roids I think you can permanently shut it down.

Personal question, does the size of your testicals upset you at all? It’s the one thing I’m really worried about and will definitely be looking at HCG next year when I get spare the extra money.

Edited by Regiment on Saturday 14th July 13:17

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vonuber said:

I've been on replacement for 7 years (post op pituitary adenoma knocked out normal function) if anyone has any queries.

I typically range from 5nmol to 38 and back again over the course of a week, which is interesting to deal with.

Isn’t there anyway to stabilise that a bit, more regular but lower doses?

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Sorry I’ve not replied back, had major issues at work overnight the last couple of weeks.

Injections are going well and definitely feel less sore in a morning and less brain fog, with all the issues at work though and not eating properly and massive amounts of stress, it’s difficult to really gauge anything but I’m 3 and a half weeks in and no bad side effects so far.

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Just an update.

4 and a half weeks in and feel worse than I was originally, absolutely tired out and exhausted at the minute and erections have gone a bit soft again so think my Oestrogen is too high. Got a blood test in just over a week so presume my dosage needs adjusting or I need to start an AI.

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6 weeks later...

Weights have gone up a little bit at the gym but I seem to have packed on a lot more body weight, which was to be expected, as I’ve added 12lbs over 6 weeks. Gone from around 218lbs at 15.4% bf to 230lbs at around 15% bf, a lot of this will presumably be water retention but still look lean and solid.

Still feel tired out and lethargic and still have issues in the bedroom, but that can be explained by my blood test I had beginning of the week.

Test has gone to 24.8nmol/l trough, so 4.5days after injection, Oestrogen is quite high and Prolactin is quite high. The Oestrogen and Prolactin will be what’s causing all of my issues so sorting out a prescription for an AI to bring those down.